Nov - Dec 1917 Casualties Devonshire Regiment

[Gareth Davies]

I am trying to find the casualty figures for the period Nov - Dec 1917 for the 3 Bns of the Devons that were in Palestine; the 1/5th, 2/4th, and 16th.  I have looked at the OH and the 74th Div history (the latter gives Div casualty numbers although it doesn't sub-divide these figures).    Does anyone have access to the WDs please?

[Guest]

Do you have The Devonshire Regiment 1914-1918 by C T Atkinson? It provides some loose details.

 

[Gareth Davies]

No but I can probably get hold of it, thank you. 

 

Edit: It is online here: http://lib.militaryarchive.co.uk/library/infantry-histories/library/The-Devonshire-Regiment-1914-1918/index.asp

 

Edited 29 September , 2017 by Gareth Davies

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

No but I can probably get hold of it, thank you. 

 I don't have the diaries but I have the history...for example 

 

16th Bn Nov 1917

Nov 6th  attack on Kauwukah defences....casualties 'just over 40. Including Col Thynne killed, Capt & Adjt Seymour wounded  ditto Lt Archer and 2 Lt Dickinson. 4 men killed, 35 wounded.

Dec. lost "5 Officers  and 140 men killed or missing and 132 men wounded" at El Foka  on Dec 3rd. Thereafter they were held in Reserve and did not participate in any of the subsequent actions until the 27th on Zeitun ridge where they were in support and 'had little fighting'. The Tenth Division's casualties from 27th to 31st Dec numbered only 20. 

 

5th Bn.

Nov 7th. Ali el Muntar. 'half dozen casualties including Capt Vicary. DOW a few days later. 

Nov 13th El Mukheizar: 400 in action of whom 7 men were killed and 2 Lts Dening and White and 48 men wounded.. Lt Lutyens Int Offr also wounded on Nov 12th.

20th - 22nd Nov. Advance.  One officer (Maj Clark) and 7 men killed  and one Officer (Capt Phillips) and 28 men wounded. over 3 days. 

23rd Attack on  El Jib. 400 strong. At one stage reduced to 6 Officers and approx 120 men. Of these only half a dozen became casualties when holding the hill. Two days later 'barely 250  men were present'.  Official tally or El Jib  was 19 killed and missing, and 7 Officers and 113 men wounded. Wounded Officers: Capt H Pridham, Lt Hamlyn, 2 Lts Treacher, Gregory, Patterson, Best and H G Mitchell. 

 

Dec 1917. Strength 'nearly 700' at the beginning of Dec. At the end of the month it was 'over 900 strong' having received 240 all ranks on 16th. Some were recovered wounded etc. The implication is around 40 casualties during the month of Dec. No precise figures are given.

 

Nothing really precise but better than nothing I suppose. Given the regular casualty updates in the history, I would be surprised if the diaries tabulated any additional data. 

Edited 29 September , 2017 by Guest

[Gareth Davies]

Thank you.

 

The line on the CO, Thynne, is interesting. The Devon Yeomanry and the North Devon Hussars were amalgamated  to become the 16th Dorsets on 4 Jan 17 but Thynne's CWGC entry shows him as a North Devon Hussar.  I wonder what cap badge he was swearing when he died.  

 

Edit to add:  The CWGC has 2 Royal North Devon Hussars and 2 Royal 1st Devon Yeoman killed in the period 31 Oct - 31 Dec 17.  All the others killed in that period who were Devon Hussars or Yeomen are listed as Devonshire Regiment.

Edited 29 September , 2017 by Gareth Davies

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

Thank you.

 

The line on the CO, Thynne, is interesting. The Devon Yeomanry and the North Devon Hussars were amalgamated  to become the 16th Dorsets on 4 Jan 17 but Thynne's CWGC entry shows him as a North Devon Hussar.  I wonder what cap badge he was swearing when he died.  

 

There is a splendid full length portrait of him in the published history.

 

He would have been North Devon Hussars. All the men were transferred to the Infantry (and given new numbers - the is an AO that relates)This also meant that in theory they adopted the infantry cap badges (although I am aware of one alleged exception - the Scottish Horse). However....all the  Yeomanry Officers remained as they were - Yeomanry- but attached to the newly formed infantry.  There is a thread somewhere in GWF that relates.

 

I assume you have the Yeomanry history. If not, I do if you need anything checking. 

 

MG

 

Edit. The History claims that all the ORs were allowed to retain their Yeomanry cap bdges. Something I thinks warrants further investigation....

Edited 29 September , 2017 by Guest

[Gareth Davies]

Thank you. 

The 16th Dorsets appears in a number of forms in the CWGC database.  

 

[Guest]

See my edit....

[Gareth Davies]

Seen.

[Guest]

Devon Yeomanry history conflicts with History of Devonshire Regt. 

 

16th Bn, 6th Nov Yeomanry states 2 Lt M B Chicheter was wounded rather than the Devonshire's version that it was Dickinson.  Also note Capt Hawker (1st Devons)  commanding the Brigade MGs was wounded, later DOW...it records Dickinson wounded on 7th Nov  in the advance on Tel el Sheria...plus one OR wounded.

 

Yeomary's version of Foka:

 

3 Officers and 49 ORs killed

Capt Fox, Capt Holley plus seven other Officers and 132 ORs wounded

two Officers and 13 ORs wounded and missing

78 ORs missing

 

Total Casualties: 286 of whom 52 were killed. 

 

Capt S R E Snow left a long narrative of the battle He was POW. "Beit el Foka was a shambles"

 

Casualties for 27th-31st Dec: 2 killed and 19 wounded.

[Gareth Davies]

Thank you.