Uncle George Posted 26 September , 2017 Share Posted 26 September , 2017 Here's a very interesting article from yesterday's 'Guardian'. Apologies if it's already been posted (I couldn't find it!), or if I've posted in the wrong place: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2017/sep/25/the-anzac-skull-that-tells-a-shocking-and-tragic-story-of-battlefield-violence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 26 September , 2017 Share Posted 26 September , 2017 Didn't someone post on the forum regarding an exactly similar situation not very long ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 26 September , 2017 Share Posted 26 September , 2017 From memory the other story was a Verdun skull of a soldier of unknown nationality that was found on a shelf on a school. This is slightly different as the nationality is known an there's a possible but unrevealed paper trail. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 September , 2017 Share Posted 26 September , 2017 (edited) I hope this skull is returned for proper burial. Yes, the other article recently was of a skull picked up by an American soldier in 1918 at Le Mort Homme", Verdun,which turned up in a school in Oklahoma. Short of a consent form-which is most highly unlikely- then this is a rather grisly piece of officer looting. And some questions to go with it: 1) It should be possible to work out which hospital Dr, Shoemaker worked at. 2) 1A number of Australians died in France on 3rd October 1917-the fifth day after the man was wounded,if the narrative is to be believed. I do not see how the skull could have been legitimately obtained.. And what of the rest of the man's body?????? Is he one of the "missing" on the memorials for that day? If so,where did the rest of his body go?? If he has a named grave, then how was it not noticed the man had no head-presumably surgically removed, rather than some of the more ad hoc ways of beheading that modern shot and shell throw up. Time for a bit of homework on the AIF records-which ought to throw up an answer. DOW after 5 days and wounded on 28th September 1917 certainly makes it likely to trace. And then -one hopes(at least I do), a rather stiff formal letter from the Oz Ambassador to the US. And a matter of great concern for CWGC that a body has been dismembered and parts taken. Edited 27 September , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 (edited) From the details given above, there is strong circumstantial evidence that the skull is that of 2919 Private Thomas Hurdis, 59th Battalion, Australian Imperial Force, who died of wounds on 3rd October 1917 and is buried at Mount Huon Cemetery, Le Treport. Circumstantial evidence that it is him is contained in his service file, available to view and download on the excellent Discovering Anzacs site. His file shows the following: Wounded SW Face and Right Arm, 28th September 1917 Moved to 3rd Australian Field Ambulance, 29th September 1917 Moved to 16th USA General Hospital at Le Treport, 30th September 1917 Died of Wounds 3rd October 1917 1) Date of wounds, 2) nature of wounds, 3) date of death and 4) United States military hospital are a strong case for it being him, subject to 2 considerations: a) There are 11 named graves of AIF men in France who died on 3rd October 1917. But Le Treport stands out as the first one to look at- it's where the seriously wounded were taken. Consequently, the other files for the fallen of that day may have to be checked. ii) His service file contains a dental record card of work done by an Australian dentist after enlistment. I am not competent to read this card, nor to compare it to the picture of the teeth that can be seen on the skull pictured. This is a most disturbing matter. I hope that it can be settled quickly and with whatever degree of dignity that can be mustered in the circumstances Edited 27 September , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frev Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 I also looked into this and came up with Thomas Hurdis as well. He is the only one who died of wounds on the 3/10/1917, that died at the hospital where Dr WT Shoemaker was serving. Slight discrepancy however, is that he is actually listed as having been wounded on the 26/9/1917, but wasn't admitted to the 3rd Aust Fld Amb until the 28/9/1917. The 59th Bn attacked the German positions in Polygon Wood on the 26th & 27th, and were relieved on the evening of the 27th. [SHOEMAKER, William Toy : Served with Pennsylvania Base Hospital No. 10, which took over British No. 16 General Hospital, B.E.F., Le Treport] Cheers, Frev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 (edited) Pennsylvania Base Hospital No. 10, Le Treport William Toy Shoemaker (page 223): https://archive.org/stream/historypennsylv01goog#page/n298/mode/2up See also page 243: 'By the courtesy of the British Medical Services, the privilege was extended to us shortly after our arrival of collecting material for a museum collection of Military Pathology. Over two hundred wet and dry specimens were gathered from autopsies and operative material, and later presented by the Unit to the Mutter Museum of the college of Physicians, where they are now on exhibition.' https://archive.org/stream/historypennsylv01goog#page/n318/mode/2up JP Edited 27 September , 2017 by helpjpl Spelling mistake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 25 minutes ago, helpjpl said: 'By the courtesy of the British Medical Services, the privilege was extended to us shortly after our arrival of collecting material for a museum collection of Military Pathology. Over two hundred wet and dry specimens were gathered from autopsies and operative material, and later presented by the Unit to the Mutter Museum of the college of Physicians, where they are now on exhibition.' Not only 'by the courtesy of the British Medical Services [RAMC?]...........................' but the next sentence indicates active co-operation from the RCS “After preparation in the laboratory, the specimens were shipped from time to time by ambulance train to the Royal College of Surgeons in London, where they were well cared for and later forwarded to us through the kindness of Prof. Arthur Keith.” [re the latter, see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Keith and in more detail here http://rsbm.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/roybiogmem/1/145.full.pdf] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Dr William Toy Shoemaker taos00058-0046.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 I agree that Hurdis looks like the only candidate for the casualty. We know that the patient was in Shoemaker's care - he was in charge of the X-ray unit at the Le Treport hospital. We know he was Australian and when he died. As such, finding Hurdis was a very straighforward look at CWGC records. There is no-on else who fits the known facts. What we seem to have here is some gruesome taking of what I can only consider to be a "scientific trophy". These are not random bits and bobs of a man's body which might have been amputated but a deliberate removal of his skull after death. Even allowing for this being a "different place at a different time", I am appalled at the callousness of it. I am tryinmg to get hold of the journalist to make him aware that a probable identification can be made and I've also emailed CWGC and the OAWG with a similar suggestion. Perhaps others here might like to make contact with them. What is obviously needed is pressure to be put on the museum, by the official bodies, to release the skull and allow it to be returned to France for reburial with the rest of Hurdis's remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Shoemaker seems to have had a lifetime of public service and as I've said elsewhere, I suspect he saved plenty of lives at Le Treport. That said, the fact that an identification is relatively easy, and the public display of the skull, make this unacceptable. I felt the same way about the King's German Legion casualty displayed in the Waterloo museum discussed recently. This is a CWGC / AM issue that needs careful handling. What would they do with a skull and I'D object found on a former battlefield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Thomas HURDIS Regimental number 2919 Place of birth Newtown, New South Wales School Leichhardt Public School, New South Wales Religion Church of England Occupation Labourer Address Yetman via Warialda, New South Wales Marital status Single Age at embarkation 26 Next of kin Mother, Mrs Harriet Hurdis, 27 Warialda Street, Kogarah, New South Wales Enlistment date 12 September 1916 Rank on enlistment Private Unit name 59th Battalion, 7th Reinforcement AWM Embarkation Roll number 23/76/4 Embarkation details Unit embarked from Sydney, New South Wales, on board HMAT A19 Afric on 3 November 1916 Rank from Nominal Roll Private Unit from Nominal Roll 59th Battalion Fate Died of wounds 3 October 1917 Miscellaneous details (Nominal Roll) *surname two spellings Hurdies and Hudis Place of death or wounding France Age at death 27 Place of burial Mont Huon Military Cemetery (Plot IV, Row O, Grave No. IA), Le Treport, France Panel number, Roll of Honour, Australian War Memorial 167 Miscellaneous information from cemetery records Parents: John and Harriet HURDIS, 132 Henderson Road, Alexandria, New South Wales Family/military connections Brother: 2818 Pte John HURDIS, 54th Bn, killed in action, 19 July 1916. Other details War service: Western Front Medals: British War Medal, Victory Medal Print format Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 (edited) Phew!! A topic I was only generally aware of- There is an excellent piece of work by a modern doctor which is very, very informative on all of this: A Cooke's tour to find the remaining pathology specimens collected ... https://handouts.uscap.org/AN2017/2017_CM17_cooke_0101.pdf Problem seems to be that this particular item could be identified and linked to a specific casualty. A clear conflict of interests- the collection of medical specimens by whatever means has undoubtedly advanced the cause of medicine for all of us-and the moral debate about how far it is appropriate to gain medical insights and advances on the backs of human misery is all too obvious from other circumstances- Let's not go there too much. If there is a clear conflict between medical research and the remains being identifiable, then I think that an exercise in "anonymising" anatomical specimens should be the order of the day. If there are items that are identifiable by modern medical techniques-and the opening up of paper records, then that should be a priority. Edited 27 September , 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Excellent article - very thorough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Seems we all went down the same road and came up with the same result. 2919 Private Thomas HURDIS, 59th Bn for mine as well. Can't really see it being anyone else. Cheers, Tim L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 27 September , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2017 This from the Mutter Museum website: Regarding a recent Guardian article Regarding the article that appeared online in The Guardian, on Monday, September 25, 2017: The Mütter Museum of The College of Physicians of Philadelphia is, as the article suggested, already in communication with the appropriate officials within the Australian Army regarding the cited specimen. This is being treated with the highest regard to protocol and precedent for such specimens. The Museum will release a further statement when appropriate. http://muttermuseum.org/news/regarding-a-recent-guardian-article/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Tim From your Fromelles experience, is there any particular person whose cage we should be rattling to get this moving forward. I presume we are all agreed that this is almost certainly Hurdis and his skull should be reunited with the rest of his remains at Le Treport. I see CWGC records next of kin information. It's an uncommon surname so I presume not too difficult to see if there are living descendents who might provide DNA for absolute proof. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Email now sent to the museum advising that we believe we have made an ID and suggesting, for that reason, they do the "decent thing" and return the skull for reburial with Hurdis' other remains. All that said, we are all going to look damn stupid if they open the grave and there's a complete skeleton in there. Seems unlikely but......... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auimfo Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 (edited) Will make some enquiries John. Have the direct email address for Director OAWG. Also - have done some hunting and located current phone number for his niece (daughter of Thomas' youngest sister). Won't ring just yet but have it if/when needed. Probably like many here have already done, I checked through the entire service file to see if there was any mention of the skull being used for these purposes and maybe family permission but as expected I couldn't see anything of the sort and by the looks of it the family were never consulted nor had any knowledge. Cheers, Tim L. Edit: I just noticed the article mentions that the Unrecovered War Casualties Office is aware and making enquiries. Probably a phone call there might also help. Edited 27 September , 2017 by Auimfo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 54 minutes ago, Auimfo said: by the looks of it the family were never consulted nor had any knowledge. Not only that but there's a rather odd letter to the mother dated 21/7/1920 which suggests they don't know a place of burial. Now, that's odd for a hospital death and it may well be just a clerical error caused by the possible mis-spellings of the name. Now I'm not one normally to rush off to conspiracy theories but...... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 (edited) DrLooks like Hurdis was a bit of a tearaway: does this description tally with his medical records? Date 1906 Police Gazette... Edited 27 September , 2017 by Simon_Fielding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 Given the fall of the calendar, then let us hope that there will be some sort of announcement by Mutter/ CWGC/ Oz Govt. on or by 3rd October-the centenary of this man's death. I, for one, will be somewhat troubled by the thought between now (Wed. 27th) and then that this poor man suffered so terribly across a period of 5 -7 days and that-as with literally millions of others, no amount of information, historical research, etc can give one iota's worth of sense as to the tragedy that the war was. A degree of sensible publicity about his injuries, his life and the ways in which we commemorate may all be suitable items for reflection by all of us for the next few days. Let's hope-personal view here-that an announcement of repatriation of remains might give some benign end to this distressing story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 27 September , 2017 Share Posted 27 September , 2017 1 hour ago, John_Hartley said: Not only that but there's a rather odd letter to the mother dated 21/7/1920 which suggests they don't know a place of burial. Now, that's odd for a hospital death and it may well be just a clerical error caused by the possible mis-spellings of the name. Now I'm not one normally to rush off to conspiracy theories but...... John I think that refers to his brother John who looks like a Fromelles casualty July 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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