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Remembered Today:

Unofficial cap badge


pioneecorps

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I have two soldiers who are in the same photograph wearing what looks like unofficial cap badges, which look to me, to be a standing Welsh Dragon, they both serve in the Welsh Fusiliers, any help with identifying the cap badge would be greatly appreciated.

Gerwyn

 

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001.jpg.195d09bfb77d8717f3420b09dbf38054.jpg

 

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Assuming they are Kitchener men... I can make out RWF around the bottom and quite possibly a dragon in the centre and I suspect something written above, I wonder if these badges were a 'Welsh' thing? I have seen images of a 11th Welsh soldier wearing a pressed card disc on his cap with Cardiff Commercial Battalion around the edge and Welsh Rgt. in the centre, also a 6th SWB soldier with a white tin disc on his collar with 6 SWB in the centre both issued in lieu of regimental cap badges. From other images I have seen regarding 'English' units and insignia in lieu of cap badges they mostly show GS buttons on the cap or shoulder titles on the collars.

Edited by jay dubaya
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Thank you for getting back to me jay, they both served with the 13th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers, I missed out on buying one years before I received the photo of the two soldiers wearing this cap badge, but thought at the time it was a fake, I wish now that I had bought it. I would go with them being issued in lieu of receiving regimental  ones also.

 

Regards.

Gerwyn

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They were simple, white pin badges of a kind once common and popular, with the regimental dragon and unit title in red.  Worn by the service battalion mentioned until issue badges became available as you have surmised.  This all occurred around the time of Lloyd George's abortive attempts to encourage the creation of a Welsh Corps.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They were simple, white pin badges of a kind once common and popular, with the regimental dragon and unit title in red.  Worn by the service battalion mentioned until issue badges became available as you have surmised.  This all occurred around the time of Lloyd George's abortive attempts to encourage the creation of a Welsh Corps.

Thank you FROGSMILE for your information on the wearing of this type of cap badge, wish now I had bought the one I seen in Cardiff years ago:angry:.

 

Regards.

Gerwyn

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36 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

A few more chums wearing the RWF Red Dragon badges.

Sepoy

 

Thank you Sepoy for the photo, the photo of the cap badges that I posted are both from the same photo with a Vickers machine gun, in fact one of the soldiers a Cpl James Liewellyn Davies VC, I was told when I received it, it was only for my use has it was going to be used in a book, and that's the reason why I only posted the cap badges, it also came with a poem written by Jim Swash, Pricetown Sep 24th 1917.

 

Regards.

Gerwyn

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4 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Assuming they are Kitchener men... I can make out RWF around the bottom and quite possibly a dragon in the centre and I suspect something written above, I wonder if these badges were a 'Welsh' thing? I have seen images of a 11th Welsh soldier wearing a pressed card disc on his cap with Cardiff Commercial Battalion around the edge and Welsh Rgt. in the centre, also a 6th SWB soldier with a white tin disc on his collar with 6 SWB in the centre both issued in lieu of regimental cap badges. From other images I have seen regarding 'English' units and insignia in lieu of cap badges they mostly show GS buttons on the cap or shoulder titles on the collars.

Hi jay, I found the photo of a Welsh Regiment soldier wearing the Cardiff Commercial Battalion disk, it was in Kitchener's Army by Ray Westlake.

 

Regards

Gerwyn 

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31 minutes ago, Mike_H said:

A photo of the badge - sorry it is rather out of focus

 

M

 

 

 

Great view of the badge, Mike, thank you for posting.  Interestingly the style of badge is still made in China and can be purchased with a variety of emblems to support various causes.  An example of lasting design.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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14 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Thanks for that Sepoy, I wonder what he had to do to get the only cap badge ;)

 

Looks like they gave it to the most gormless-looking.

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4 hours ago, Mike_H said:

A photo of the badge - sorry it is rather out of focus

 

M

 

59b8d48a941b1_WWIInsignia2613rdBnRWF.thumb.jpg.d1b91545707cb8a655460070c1ffa996.jpg

Thank you for posting the photo Mike. 

 

Regards.

Gerwyn

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Thank you all for your kind help

 

Anyone know if Ray still with us, I use to buy badges off him years ago, think I still have his lists he sent me somewhere.

 

Regards

Gerwyn

Edited by pioneecorps
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Thanks for posting the image Mike, does the 3 signify 3rd Bn? but that doesn't make sense, I had always assumed that the shortage of cap badges affected the new Kitchener battalions. Are there any further examples of these badges being issued to other battalions?

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Jay

As far as I know it is 3rd Battalion. I think shortages probably affected whole regiments during the rapid expansion of the army in 1914 and so recruits passing through the 3rd would have been as likely as any battalion to be short of some kit.

M

 

 

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here are some of my notes re 3rd {SR} RWF.

 

You will see the massive expansion of the "reserve" battalion which was 3rd, in parallel with the formation and growth of Kitchener's Army. I can well envisage the early shortage of official cap badges [no QM worth his salt at Depot would stock more than a year's worth] and that the New Armies might well get priority.

These expedient badges must be from a very narrow 1914 time window II believe.

 

 

6th August. Ex-regular soldiers invited to enlist in SR for one year or the duration AO.295.

6th August. Enlistments invited for New Armies, three years or the duration. AO.296.

6th August. 100,000 regulars to be enlisted. Large influx at Depôts expected. WOI.32.

7th August.. Kitchener’s Appeal for 100,000 men. WOI.37.

7th August. Home Line battalions to send one captain, two subalterns, two serving sergeants, 13 other sergeants and corporals as drill instructors for New Army unit, the latter may be reservists. WOI.41

10th August. Reserve battalions to send one captain and one subaltern to Depôt to assist training new units. WOI.59.

11th August. Depôts to train New Army units. WOI.65.

16th August. As each 100 New Army men become clothed at Depôt to be sent to Training Centre. WOI.112.

17th August. All new recruits aged 30 years and over to Reserve battalion not to New Army.  WOI.117.

20th August. Reserve battalions to be grown to 2000 Other Ranks but only after “the service battalion” has been formed. After this, fill the Depôt, after this, divert to another regiment. WOI.288.

24th August. Discharges on termination of engagement are suspended, soldiers held to serve extra year or demobilisation. AO.328.

1st September. Reserve Battalion to be at 1018 all ranks. An extra company to be formed for each 100 recruits in excess. As a company becomes trained it is to be drafted to service companies i.e. to Service battalions. WOI.2.

2nd September. When Service battalions of new division are filled, Reserve battalions to grow to 2000 all ranks. Surplus intended for next new division. WOI.11

4th September. Surplus recruits to be passed to reserve on half pay i.e. not trained until needed. WOI.49.

11th September. Recall those recruits sent to reserve on half pay. WOI.151.

19th September. Reserve battalions to grow to 2600 men. WOI.258.

 

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Thank's for that Mike, it makes sense now it's be said and thanks too to David for painting it in such a small window with some interesting notes regarding the initial influx into the service battalions

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  • 8 months later...
On 13/9/2017 at 07:47, Mike_H said:

A photo of the badge - sorry it is rather out of focus

 

M

 

59b8d48a941b1_WWIInsignia2613rdBnRWF.thumb.jpg.d1b91545707cb8a655460070c1ffa996.jpg

I have these down in my records as worn by 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion during training. This comes from the little booklet put together by David Bownes,RWF Museum Curator 2002.

 

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