WHO CAN IDENTIFY THE OFFICERS?

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Fellow-GWFs,

I possess the medal group to Sidney M. Boddy, IARO (a former "Old Contemptible" NCO of QWR) . 

He served in Persia and on the Frontier with 2/94th Russell's Infantry. The officer group photo was taken at Rawalpindi, 1919.

Officers identified are:

back row, far right, Capt C. R. French; back row, far left, Lieut Conroy R. Richdale - and of course Capt S. M. Boddy, seated, far right.

But who are the other officers?

The Lt-Col may ot may not have been C. H. K. Jopp, for example...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

thelindsayhouse@web.de

 

[Mark1959]

Blooming difficult! Have you ruled out WLS Meiklejohn as a potential Lt-Col?

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark1959,

Yes, difficult indeed. Many thanks for your response!

W. L. S. Meiklejohn could well have been the officer seated in the centre. 

I attach 1919 and 1920 Indian Army Lists, to show the shifting of Officers in those days...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Mark1959]

Do you have access to ancestry? There is a doc related to the wife of Maurice Pugh Poyner. This has pics of him. Looks like the chap next to Richdale but will let you make your own mind up. Maurice Pugh MIC shows was in 2/94. Will publish link if you have access. Out until early evening

Mark

[Mark1959]

This is Maurice Pugh Poynor and his wife. One of the men? Plenty on ancestry to put together a life story

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

No, I do not have ancestry - but many thanks for the delightful photo of M. P. and Mrs Poynter at the Races - or wherever. Super!

I would say that he is the officer in the back row, second from right - with Capt C. R. French at his left shoulder - but will look again!

The Lt-Col is probably Meiklejohn, as you suggested, and I would say that Capt C. H. K. Jopp was seated second from right: between the former, and Capt Boddy. 

I have two photos of Richdale (attached), who made a career of the RAF.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Mark1959]

Looking again you are probably correct.

His MC shows he enlisted as an OR. Leicester Yeomanry number 1910. MIC shows 1914 Star, Clasp and Roses. Qual date 2/11/14. Shows the 2/94th and 1/5 Leics Regt. MIC say Commissioned 21/12/15, 3/5 Leics Regt. Also shows the IGSM with S. Persia clasp. Address on the MIC is 2/94th c/o Cox and Co., Bombay. There is an Indian Army roll for him for the BW and VM. This show France 2/11/14 to 22/12/15 and again 18/9/16 to 10/6/17. It then says "Bhushire Persia" 22/10/18 then Waziristan Field Force 1919 to 27/12/20. Perm unit is given as 1/97th Infantry and with 2/94. The issue is date March 1922. Rank shown as Capt. He is in another list of 97th officers claims for the medals + another Indian Army roll. His MIC is covered with refs and issues of medals. 

Birth reg in Leicester in 1Q 1894. However a baptism record show he was born 26th Nov 1893. Parents Robert Henry and Kate Elizabeth living at 11 De Montfort St. The family ran a business producing stockings in Kibworth. 1901 has him with his paternal uncle's family in Wisbech, Cambs, The uncle appears to be running a school there and expect his was at school there. Cannot find his 1911 census record at the moment

Numbering blog suggest he enlisted in  the Leic Yeo 1912 or 1913 (1846 joins 5/3/12 and 1950 on 19/5/13). He married Norah Elizabeth Blakey in Kibworth in late MArch or early April 1928 in Kibworth. So pic was before they were married They liked travelling as they appear in several passenger lists during the 1930s. 

MPP probate indicates still living Kibwoth at his death in Leicester Royal Infirmary on 29/1/1951. Norah lived on until 1967.

He disappears off the Indian Army lists after 1922. He starts appearing in the Kibworth Harcourt electoral rolls from 1923 and show him as resident

There are a number of Army list entries for a Capt MP Poynor from 1940 through 1945, RE and RA, but cannot confirm it is him.

 

This pic is him in Kibworth and alleged to have been taken in 1923. Nice Motor.

 

Can find a lot on William Thomas Clyde but sadly not a picture as yet

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

Many thanks for such extremely interesting background information!

I have now (thanks to the fact that M. P. Poynter had the 14 Star) come to the conclusion that your original identification was correct: he is the officer, wearing the 14 Star ribbon, standing second from left, next to Richdale.

Moreover, his square-ish jaw matches with that of the dapper racegoer with attractive young fiancee...

The look-alike officer (talk about brother officers!), standing second from right, has no ribbon - whereas four officers are wearing the 14 Star ribbon. 

It is tantalizing to know that there is lots of information about W. T. Clyde!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[RaySearching]

2 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

MPP probate indicates still living Kibwoth at his death in Leicester Royal Infirmary on 29/1/1951.

 

This fits in with the car Registration Letters N R   The car in the photo registered in Leicester

 

 

Just an additional snippet of info 

 

Ray

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark and thanks, Ray,

I have found a perhaps more pertinent July 1919 Indian Army List, which shows that Jopp had probably moved on (so much for my thinking him as being seated, second right!).

Major (A/Lt-Col) Meiklejohn seems indeed to have been the officer seated centre, wearing two ribbons. 

Just for general interest, I have also attached a picture of 2-94 Russell's Infantry Jemadars, noted by Boddy as: 'Some of our Indian officers taken at Sangor'.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Mark1959]

Just had that annoying bit when you lose your input.

Worked on assumptions that if in both lists likely to be in photo. Assuming WD and WT Clyde are same man despite inconsistencies in data.

British Army List 1922 says William Thomas Captain IA dob 28/3/95, 

Only birth reg that matches is a reg in Dublin South, 2nd Q 1895. In 1901 Irish census living in Dublin, Father Thomas, Mother Emily. 1911 census with mother Emily in residence of assumed maternal uncle or aunt, still in Dublin

MIC shows formerly MGC and 2/94th. Plus the 2/94th. Also shows the IGSM with S Persia Clasp. Reverse states O.C 2/94th Dera Ismail Khan ..unreadable (looks like fords but could be a shortened forwards) ..nom roll of officers entitled to medals 9/1/20. No roll entries found

We than have a marriage certificate for a Thomas William Clyde dated 19/6/1920. However he signs as Willie T Clyde. Willie is name shown on 1911 census. Father given as Thomas Captain aged 25. Residence is given as Dera Ismail Khan. Bride is Phyllis Annie Booker.

There are 2 later British Army List IA entries for W T Clyde. Captain 1932. Bt Major 1945

There is a possible death reg for him. Aged about 68 3Q 1963 in Nottingham.

So he, in theory, cannot be any wearing a Star ribbon in the photo

One last bit there is also a discharge transcriptio for a "Wt Clyde" dob 28/3/1895 721420/37. It is in a file for RAF officers and Other Ranks pre 53. Looks like available from GRO. A long ref is given

Sadly no photo anywhere I have found.

Edited 5 September , 2017 by Mark1959

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

The MIC detail for Thomas William Clyde is highly interesting.

It can be compared with that to Sidney Boddy, for example (attached).

I also have medallic details of a 2/94 Russell's Infantry officer probably not in the group photo, who seems to have joined later:-

Group to G. S. Lightfoot:

KPM GVR 1st type (Indian Police Service); 1914-15 Star (CAPT., 101 GRENDRS.); BWM (LIEUT.); Victory (CAPT.); IGS GVR clasp Waziristan 1919-21 (CAPT., 2-94 INFY.); 1939-45 Star; Burma Star; Defence; War Medal 1939-45; 1935 Jubilee GVR; 1937 Coronation GVIR. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Mark1959]

Does this chap look familiar? In front of tree? He seems to have had a remarkable life

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

Yes, one sees the resemblance. What was his name?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Mark1959]

I believe he is George Robert "Jock" Coulthard. GR Coulthard in the IA lists

There is a page here written by his GGS (scroll down to his entry)

http://www.sebcoulthard.com/inspiration.html

I have already done a lot of research and I am not sure about all the statements especially the RAF one at the end. There is a great deal around about his WW1 service that I will start editing into this post

According to Naval records born 20/12/1893. I suspect in Scotland. Address on entry is 34, Sidney St, Saltcoats, Ardrossan,Scotland. Enlisted RN 23/11/1914. Number is a Clyde one Z/2455. Obviously seen as officer material as rated PO whilst in charge of a working party as early as 19/12/14.

12/7/1915 discharged as appointed to a commission in the RNVR.

Another naval record say Temp Sub Lt from 13/7/15 and Act Lt 5/3/17. Into Hood Battn Sept 1915. 

on 23/10/15 he is disembarked from a hospital ship at Malta suffering from Dysentary. A latter statement in same record say posted as reinforecement to Hood Bn. Leaving UK on 21/9/15. Was back in Haslar Hospital by 20/11/15 and was not fit for service until March 1916.

Then in UK it seem until his transfer to Indian army. His comm in the RNVR terminated 26/7/17. The last statement on that records dates to 1920 and says entitled to 1915 Star, BW and VM

So did he get to Gallipoli. That entitlement and the fact he went to Malta on a HS probably supports that conclusion.

There is a RND officer record for him in WO 339/91637

LG has his appt to IARO from 27/7/17 as porbationary Lt. LG dated 20/9/17.

Found 2 MICs for him. They are marked as being the same man. The one under George R shows

A/Lt RN

Capt 105 Mahrattas

Major IARO

Shows IGSM with S Persia Clasp

Reverse show RN has applied for the medals. The MIC only shows BW and VM. 

The other is under JR. Again only refers to BW and VM - unit is shown as IDF(IA) " 2-Lt.

 A Navy roll show the Star, BW and VM and says issued by Gov of India

There is another roll under his Clyde number but that just refers to the first.

Whist on medals found another record that indicates that RN issued his Star. The list dates from 1926. So looks as though he did not get it until then.

There is one roll entry under the Mahrattas for his BW and VM

Edited 6 September , 2017 by Mark1959

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

Good work!

Seb Coulthard might even like a scan of the 1919 Rawalpindi 2-94 Russell's Infantry group. Perhaps he will disclose details of G. R. Coulthard's medal group...

The family background is fascinating, too.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Edited 6 September , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[Mark1959]

Still editing previous post until your reply. Will start another. Did you scroll far enough down to see him in RNVR uniform. One of the other pages has what I believe his group is but cannot find it at the moment - being a bit slow this morning

There is a record for a GR Coulthard, 79266 RAF

 

Info: Officer Released from the Active List. Officer of the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.

Rank: Temp Squadron Leader

2nd Rank War Substantive Squadron Leader

Primary Unit: Administrative And Special Duties Branch

Seniority Date: 1/1/1944

No evidence to link the record to our man

Death Registered in NE Hampshire in 2Q 1977. Register gives  DoB of 20/12/1895. His marriage to Joyce Williams poss 1954 in Westminster. There is a relevant family tree that shows a dob of 13/12/1895 but without supporting documentation and indicates born in Gretna. Father James is correct as per naval records. This boy is shown in transcription of 1901 Scottish census as living in Gretna aged 5.

 

So that is about it. Kim, will leave you to contact Seb should you so wish

 

http://www.sebcoulthard.com/expeditions.html

 

Looking at this I think he may be sat down in front of the tree rather than stood up. It is an inexact science. Views. Seb should know

Edited 6 September , 2017 by Mark1959

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

Yes, I saw that one of George 'Jock' Coulthard as a Sub Lt RNVR, RN Div. 

Seb clearly does not have that 2-94 Inf officer group. The portrait of the Judge with medals up, was that of the ex-Wellington pilot, but not of George Coulthard.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Edited 6 September , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[Mark1959]

See previous edited post

[Mark1959]

http://www.sebcoulthard.com/expeditions.html

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All and Mark,

Boddy also started off as a pre-war Territorial Corporal with the Queen's Westminster Rifles. After his Blighty wound he was commissioned into a training battalion and by 1917 was an Acting Capt (the rank impressed on his BWM), before joining the Indian Army (IARO)...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Mark1959]

This may well be the W S Kelly in the IA lists. Kim - See PM. Is he in the pic. I can find his entry in various army lists and he retire from IA in 1948

 

https://www.ggs.vic.edu.au/Alumni/Events/Albert-Reunion-/Individual-Stories/wallscourt-steen-kelly

 

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

Absolutely brilliant - an Aussie in the group!

Meanwhile I have contacted Seb, who has been beamed the 2-94 Russell's officer group. He beamed me an un-named officer group: probably 1917, 105 Mahrattas - but Capt Coulthard can be made out, seated second from left.

Many thanks, too, for the helpful MICs - that to Poynor is a work of art!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Mark1959]

Another probable for the group, although I have no photograph, is Charles Hugh Donovan.

CHD is born 12th October 1887 in Lucknow.

He can be found in Warwick in the 1901 census. Father is Hugh L described as Lt-Col Army Medical Service, mother Rosabel St C. Both parents born in Ireland

Probable entry for him in 1908 Harts Army List in the Waterford Artillery (militia) as a Lt. Seniority date 28/4/06.

We then find an Royal Irish Regiment Record for him in 1908. This shows he was passed from the militia. Confirms he was at school in Warwick and gives his height as 5ft 5in. He is at home with the RIR from 27/5/08 (matches the date in the IA lists above) to 15/10/08. Thence to India on 16/10/08 with the 1st Battn RIR.

The 1911 census has him still with 1 RIR In India

LG entry 9/2/1912 says 94th from RIR from 6/9/11 but to rank from 27/8/10

Found a transcripted record IA Qterly list 1/1/12 that put him with 94 Inf.

Another Army List still has him with 94 Inf in 1914.

Lts to be T Capt with 94th LG 28/9/16.

Another entry in LG on 6/4/1917 still with 94 Inf.

Can find a ref for a CH Donovan Major IA in 1932 Army list.

His MIC just mentions 94th Inf and the 96th Berar Inf. It does show both BW and VM that implies service not just in India.

He married Elizabeth Lillian Howe in Cork, Ireland - registered 3Q 1917 and a son is born in Cork Jun 1918

There is a passenger ref listing Charles H Donovan, Army Officer travelling 1st class between Bombay and London - Dec 1931 to 29/1/32. Intended residence is Bedford

He dies 18/9/58 in Bedford. Probate to his widow Elizabeth Lilian.

Photo still being looked for. 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Mark,

C. H. Donovan was with 1st Battalion, 94th Russell's Infantry.

I have found a July 1918 Indian Army List for 2nd Battalion, 94th Russell's Infantry - long before my Capt Sidney Boddy joined as a Coy Cdr.

This shows that Coulthard (Adjutant from 17 Feb 1918), Richdale, Poynor, French, Herredge - and the Australian W. S. Kelly (not Kelley), had been long-serving, in Richdale's case, almost since its inception at Saugor, June 1917.

Kindest regards,

Kim.