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Colin M-S

Arthur Smith - Rifles Brigade

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MBrockway

From the other topic you've started on this, but moved here to keep everything in one place ...

 

3 hours ago, Colin M-S said:

Hi,

 

Would anybody be able to check their Rifle Brigade Chronicles to see if there is an Arthur M Smith listed as a sergeant or staff sergeant in the 1st Battalion, Rifle Brigade .  I believe that Arthur (my great grandfather) enlisted in 1904 (bugler) and was posted to Belfast where he married my great grandmother in 1907 . Arthur's middle name is Meadows.

 

He was working as a postman in 1912 (on the reserve list) in Surrey  and was called back up in 1914 at the outbreak of war. 

 

On the marriage certificates of his daughters in the 1930's he is listed as  being a sergeant / staff sergeant Rifle Brigade. (deceased)

 

Arthur went off the radar after the birth of his last child in 1920 , left his family and no records have been found indicating what happened to him.

 

Thanks 

 

Colin

 

 

The only death I can find in the Registers Index that has an Age at Death valid for a birth in 1886 as well as First Name(s) Arthur M, is for an Arthur M. SMITH, died aged 44yrs, death registered in Q3 1931 in Stockport Registration District.

 

Searching for First Name(s) of plain Arthur with a plausible Age at Death brought back pages of hits :huh:.

 

Mark

 

 

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MBrockway
Posted (edited)
On 07/09/2017 at 15:09, Colin M-S said:

Arthur Smith married Annie Morgan in 1907 when he was in the 1st Rifle Brigade (Bugler)

A Private Henry Lester Foot married Maria Morgan the sister of Annie in September 1911, based at Richmond Barracks. Henry Foot served in the 3rd battalion and died in1914.

 

There is a chance that Arthur Smith might have joined the 3rd Battalion.

 

On 07/09/2017 at 15:12, Colin M-S said:

Forgot to say that Henry Foot was a bugler also  and was 2 years younger than Arthur.  Are there any census returns for Richmond barracks in 1911 ? might show Arthur as being present.

 

... and this from your other topic ...

4 hours ago, Colin M-S said:

Would anybody be able to check their Rifle Brigade Chronicles to see if there is an Arthur M Smith listed as a sergeant or staff sergeant in the 1st Battalion, Rifle Brigade .  I believe that Arthur (my great grandfather) enlisted in 1904 (bugler) and was posted to Belfast where he married my great grandmother in 1907 . Arthur's middle name is Meadows.

 

He was working as a postman in 1912 (on the reserve list) in Surrey  and was called back up in 1914 at the outbreak of war. 

 

 

What's your source for Arthur working as a postman in Surrey?  Higher up the information given was he was a postman working at Warrenpoint in Ulster.

 

Be aware that Richmond Barracks are in Dublin, not Richmond-upon-Thames, Surrey.

 

Richmond Barracks census returns for 1911 are available on-line, but unfortunately the men in the barracks are listed only by their initials.  It looks like only those not living communally (e.g. ? in married quarters) have their full names on the Return.

 

Some of these initials only pages do also include what appear to be Service Numbers, but by no means all.

 

There is a Bugler "H.L.F.", 'D' Coy, 1st Bn, Rifle Brigade, aged 25yrs, as Entry#14 on this page here, who could be Henry Lester FOOTE/FOOT ...

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000130866/

 

I couldn't find any rifleman with initials "A.M.S." and there were too many "A.S."'s to chase through, particularly as you hypothesise Arthur was already out of the battalion by this time.

 

This link should give the first page (of 12 pages, 100 names per page!) of the results for the whole of Richmond Military Barracks (all units):

1911 Census of Ireland - Richmond Military Barracks, Dublin

 

Andy - this is likely to interest us too, with several rifles battalions in Ireland for 1911, but the search tool takes some getting use to! 

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway
On 07/09/2017 at 18:51, Colin M-S said:

Hi Andrew,

 

Thanks for the photo and the reference to Arthur Smith. I had seen that service number previously but had discounted it because I thought Arthur was a Corporal. However the newspaper source I am working from does have some other errors in it ( Henry Foot's unit being one) so it's possible that they listed Arthur's rank incorrectly.

 

I've attached some files regarding Henry Lester  Foot, Arthur Smith and his 4 brothers in law, Frank,John,Patrick and William Morgan( my great great uncles) Both Frank and John

 

 

Here is the 1911 Census of Ireland result for Patrick Sr and family in Warrenpoint ...

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Warrenpoint/Church_Street_Lane/259636/

 

Granddaughter Mary Pauline THOMPSON, 3yrs old, is presumably the child of Patrick Sr's son-in-law "Pte Thomason" (sic) mentioned in the "Good Man, Frank!" newspaper article.

 

Patrick Sr's household in 1901 with daughters Annie and Maria both still resident:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Warrenpoint/South_Quay/1251363/

 

 

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Colin M-S

Evening gents,

 

Thank you for all your feedback. I've put together a timeline for Arthur Smith

 

Born 19/1/1886 Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey

Census 1891, living in Kingston Upon Thames

Census 1901, missing, all other members of family accounted for

Marriage to Annie Morgan, 1/4/1907, occupation Bugler 1st Rifle Brigade, residence Palace Barracks Holywood

Birth of son James Smith, 29/1/1909, Warrenpoint, occupation Soldier  (Warrenpoint is the  home town of Annie Morgan) birth registered by Mary Morgan

Birth of son William Jospeh Smith 15/11/1912, Warrenpoint, occupation postman, birth registered by Mary Morgan

Postal Service records, 1912, Arthur M Smith, assistant postman, Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey

Postal Service records 1913, Arthur M Smith, postman, New Malden, Surrey

Birth of daughter Norah E Smith, 28/8/14, occupation Bugler Rifle Brigade (postman), residence, 58 Albermarle gardens, New Malden, birth registered by Annie Smith 

Based on tales from my grandfather about going to school in Warrenpoint, it's presumed that Annie Smith returned to Warrenpoint at this point.

My grandfather tongue in cheek mentioned that his father (Arthur Smith) was a teacher at Harrow school,clearly not true, but could tie in with the 1st Battalion being billeted at Harrow prior to departing for France.

Birth of daughter approx 1918, Clara Evelyn Smith,not been able to locate birth cert, unsure of place of birth

Birth of daughter Doris Lilian Smith 17/2/1920, occupation Concerte Artiste Elocutioniste, residence, 27 Rose Street Sheerness, birth registered by Arthur Smith

In 1922 Annie Smith registered birth of daughter, father not listed, residence 27 Rose Street.

My grandfather says that Arthur wanted to move to find work but that his wife didn't want to go. Again based on tales from my grandfather, he claimed there are Meadow Smiths in Australia. I managed to locate Arthur's sister in New Zealand, she left the Uk  C1920.

Wedding certs from some of Arthur's children list him as a sergeant and staff sergeant in the RIfle Brigade, I'm unable to verify this. My grandfather would not talk much about his father.

 

We looked at 6726 as a possible, entered the war in 23.8.14 and became a POW 26.8.14   Not sure if this ties in with the birth of Clara Evelyn Smith C1918. POW most likely in camp Sennelager, again don't know when they were released and returned home.

 

A puzzle why the Smith family ended up in Sheerness, I'd hypothesized that perhaps Arthur Smith had returned injured and was posted to Sheerness to train new recruits.

 

I think you have found Henry Lester Foot in the 1911 census returns, good work, very well done !

Henry Lester Foot married Mary Morgan 30/9/1911, occupation Bugler 1st Rifle Brigade, residence Richmond barracks, city of Dublin

Mary Morgan's residence 71 Emmett Street ? Dublin

Henry Lester Foot died 24.4.1915 Chapelle D'armentieres

3rd Battalion, rifleman, serial number 107

 

Being unable to find Arthur in the 1901 census , I did wonder if he had joined the regiment at a young age, so is he 6726 and did his children exaggerate his rank on their wedding certificates, the other children had him listed as a postman, civil servant (clerk), grammar school teacher !  or is he actually a staff sergeant / sergeant.  The occupation concerte Artiste elocutionist suggests he was still involved in music ,bugler past !  Searched high and low for him for a year now and the only lead I have is a postal service record for 1928, with no region listed.

 

I've managed to trace all the people listed in the Good man Frank article, which has a few inaccuracies, it's been a very very interesting experience piecing it all together.

 

Sadly Arthur Smith's son died in WW2

SMITH_WILLIAM_JOSEPH (1).pdf

 

Patrick Morgan is my great great grandfather, lived in Church Lane, Warrenpoint.

 

 

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Colin M-S

I've uploaded a photo of the 1st Battalion marching through Holywood Belfast c1906. I was sent this by Robin Masefield who has written a history of the Holywood barracks

4.20 1906 150803 1RB marching through Holywood .jpg

It's very possible that Arthur Smith is one of the Buglers 

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Colin M-S
Posted (edited)

I've attached some more files which might be of interest relating to the 1st  Battalion Rifle Brigade  in Ireland and also  the conditions at Sennelager POW camp

 

Rifle brigade arriving in Belfast 1.0 .pdf

Rifle Brigade leaving Belfast.pdf

Rifle Brigade arriving in Dublin.pdf

Prisoners shot in cold blood.pdf  will need to zoom in

IRC camp report Sennelager.pdf

Sennelager newspaper article.pdf   will need to zoom in

Tunnel escape Sennelager.pdf

 

I'd also recommend reading

 

Sixteen months in four german prisons

Wesel

Sennelager ( possible to identify the arrival of Rifle Brigade POWS, based on dates etc)

Klingelputz

Ruhleben

 

by Henry C Mahoney.

 

I can email a copy of this book,  the copyright has expired but I am wary of posting it on the forum.

 

Edited by Colin M-S

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Colin M-S

Would he have been a rifleman at such an early age ? He was listed as a bugler in 1907 when he was 21. Wasn't there a minimum age for serving overseas ?

 

If you were placed on the reserve list would you have been given the prefix letter B.

 

Apart from serving in Ireland i have no evidence that Arthur Smith served in France, only that he didn't register the birth of his daughter in August 1914, which suggests he was called up.

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stiletto_33853
2 hours ago, Colin M-S said:

My grandfather tongue in cheek mentioned that his father (Arthur Smith) was a teacher at Harrow school,clearly not true, but could tie in with the 1st Battalion being billeted at Harrow prior to departing for France.

Colin,

 

Quite a conundrum, teacher at Harrow?? maybe because for the 4 days they were in Harrow the 1st encamped on the school's football fields, well 3 days really as they left Harrow at 2.34 am on the 4th day. Certainly seem to be quite a few family lore inconsistencies.

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stiletto_33853

The B prefix was given to old soldiers that had left the Army and re-enlisted where there original number had been re-issued to someone else. However you say that he was in the reserves which means he would have kept his original number, as previously stated this Prefix has a lot of inconsistencies attached, i.e a lot of New Army men were given B numbers also, a lot.

 

Andy

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Colin M-S

My grandad did tell some good stories !  There's no chance whatsoever his father was a teacher, but interesting that he mentioned Harrow, i can think of no other reason other than his father passing through Harrow on the way to war.

 

With two daughters mentioning the rank of sergeant, I was curious to see if there are any references to an A Smith in the chronicles. If not, I think I'm going to have to put this one to bed and move on.

 

 

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stiletto_33853

Colin,

 

I have been unable to find any reference to him in the Chronicles, if he was a sportsman there might have been a chance. Any smith that comes up is the usual Rifleman Smith, no initials. I will take at look at the Rifle Brigade Association Journals to see if he attended and OCA meetings or Regimental dinners however unlikely this might seem as he seems to have disappeared off the scene.

I do wonder if he served overseas in the war, he may have been recalled to the colours but then served in the 5th or 6th, this happened with a good few old riflemen, hence no medal index card etc.

 

Andy

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stiletto_33853
11 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

 

There is a Bugler "H.L.F.", 'D' Coy, 1st Bn, Rifle Brigade, aged 25yrs, as Entry#14 on this page here, who could be Henry Lester FOOTE/FOOT ...

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000130866/

 

I couldn't find any rifleman with initials "A.M.S." and there were too many "A.S."'s to chase through, particularly as you hypothesise Arthur was already out of the battalion by this time.

Andy - this is likely to interest us too, with several rifles battalions in Ireland for 1911, but the search tool takes some getting use to! 

 

Mark

 

Crikey,

That Irish Census would take some looking at, and as he was seemingly in the Reserves at that time!!

 

Compare to the 2nd in India at the time of the census.

 

 

rg14_34988_0649_35 copy.jpg

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Colin M-S

When I started this search I came across service number 1081, rank sergeant. At that time I didn't have the wedding records so discounted it based on the rank.  I've taken a look at the medal card, it's not  clear but it looks like 2nd battalion with the date of entry into the war supporting this. 

 

1081.pdf

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Colin M-S

wo329_3128-00103.jpg

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stiletto_33853
Posted (edited)

Colin,

 

Arthur Albert was 1081, 2nd

 

 

B.316.JPG

Edited by stiletto_33853

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stiletto_33853

2nd M.71.JPG

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Colin M-S

I think you told me that last year, my memory is failing me, sorry !

 

Been looking at Henry Lester Foot, lots of info on him ! Found his attestation papers, he joined the 4th Battalion Essex Regt 7/12/1903 service number (9686)  and then transferred to the Rifle Brigade 19/01/1904 , ironically on Arthur's birthday. His service number was 107. Gives you an idea on what service numbers were issued in 1904.

 

 

GBM_WO96_0763_173_003.jpg

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MBrockway
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Colin M-S said:

I think you told me that last year, my memory is failing me, sorry !

 

Been looking at Henry Lester Foot, lots of info on him ! Found his attestation papers, he joined the 4th Battalion Essex Regt 7/12/1903 service number (9686)  and then transferred to the Rifle Brigade 19/01/1904 , ironically on Arthur's birthday. His service number was 107. Gives you an idea on what service numbers were issued in 1904.

 

 

The RB's service number third series began in early Jan 1904 and certainly no earlier than 28 Dec 1903.

 

Do you have a birth date for Bugler Foot?  That would be useful.

 

If Arthur Smith, born 1886, joined up as a Boy Bugler, that would be circa 1900.  SN in range ~7000 - 8000 in the second series (give or take).  If he enlisted in the first half of 1900, he would have just completed his 12 years before the war started.

 

If he did not join as a Boy, then we would be looking at earliest approx 1904.  SN in range approx 1-650 in the third series (give or take).  Plus he would still have been on Reserve in 1914.

 

Not all the buglers were Boys.

 

Also he did not necessarily enlist at the earliest age possible.

 

 

Edited by MBrockway

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MBrockway
1 hour ago, Colin M-S said:

Been looking at Henry Lester Foot, lots of info on him ! Found his attestation papers, he joined the 4th Battalion Essex Regt 7/12/1903 service number (9686)  and then transferred to the Rifle Brigade 19/01/1904 , ironically on Arthur's birthday. His service number was 107. Gives you an idea on what service numbers were issued in 1904.

 

 

Looks like he has gone in via the Militia.  A not unusual way of putting your toe in the water of service life without initially committing to 12 years.  The equivalent of entry via the Special Reserve post 1908 - see the Mother Site for more info on this.

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Colin M-S

The attestation papers say H.L.F was 17 years and 10 months old when he joined the militia  so that would make his birth date around the start of February 1886,  his birth was registered 4th quarter 1886.

 

Say if Arthur joined in 1904, was his initial service period 7 years and then 5 on the reserve ?, this fits in with his postal service starting in 1912 and the birth certificate of his daughter in 1914 which had him listed as both a bugler in the rifle brigade and a  postman.

Attestation forms.jpg

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ss002d6252
6 minutes ago, Colin M-S said:

The attestation papers say H.L.F was 17 years and 10 months old when he joined the militia  so that would make his birth date around the start of February 1886,  his birth was registered 4th quarter 1886.

 

Say if Arthur joined in 1904, was his initial service period 7 years and then 5 on the reserve ?, this fits in with his postal service starting in 1912 and the birth certificate of his daughter in 1914 which had him listed as both a bugler in the rifle brigade and a  postman.

Attestation forms.jpg

1903/904 was at a period where regular enlistments were changing - enlistment terms were running at 3 & 9yrs and then moved over over to 7&5 years (I haven''t got the exact dates to hand). The exact breakdown of service varied but the 12 years total remained.

Craig

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MBrockway

I have a KRRC Regular enlisted in the Militia March 1902 and then took the plunge transferring to the Regulars in 1/KRRC in Oct 1902.  Terms were 3 and 9.

 

As Craig says, the terms changed during the period we're looking at.

 

I'll continue delving in my archive for a KRRC/RB Regular enlistment c.1904 for which I have a full document set.

 

Mark

 

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Colin M-S
2 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Looks like he has gone in via the Militia.  A not unusual way of putting your toe in the water of service life without initially committing to 12 years.  The equivalent of entry via the Special Reserve post 1908 - see the Mother Site for more info on this.

Just a thought, if you entered via the Militia, how long would you have to commit to the Militia. I'm wondering if Arthur Smith did the same and possibly explains why he is missing in the 1901 census.  What would be the nearest Militia to Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey ? Might be worth my while looking to see if he went down this route.

 

 

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MBrockway
Posted (edited)

Once a man committed to enlist as a Regular, any Militia obligation would be cancelled out.

 

Apart from the initial training period, the militia were part-time soldiers holding down civilian jobs.  Militia members would still show up in 1901 census, though a small number volunteered to serve in the Boer War.  Further information on the militia and the Special Reserve is widely available in cyberspace - e.g. on the Mother Site (= The Long Long Trail) as I suggested earlier.

 

4th Essex (1st West Essex Militia) had HQ at Warley some 15 miles from Burnham-on-Crouch.  They were merged with 3rd Essex as part of the 1908 Haldane Reforms with the merged battalion then becoming part of the Special Reserve.

 

I seem to remember a topic on a drill hall in Kingston within the last year or so, though it could easily have been a VF/TF rifle volunteer unit of course.  If you search, you might find this quite easily.

 

The East Surrey Regt is the county infantry regiment local to Kingston-upon-Thames.

 

Its two militia battalions were 1st and 3rd Royal Surrey Regiment of Militia.  In the 1905 Army List, both battalions are headquartered at Kingston.

 

I'll leave this line of inquiry for you to pursue though - it does not seem promising to me.

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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Colin M-S

 

Thanks Mark, I'll have a go. If nothing turns up I'm going to conclude that Arthur Smith at some point was posted to Sheerness and trained the  recruits.

 

 

 

 

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