wendyguest Posted 27 August , 2017 Share Posted 27 August , 2017 I picked up this 18 pounder shell case and was intrigued by all the stamps on the base. Having read previous threads, I wonder if anyone can decode these particular marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanayca Posted 27 August , 2017 Share Posted 27 August , 2017 I believe the f stands for 'filled' and was only added once the charge was loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 27 August , 2017 Share Posted 27 August , 2017 (edited) The Primer in the Middle with G C (either side of the circles) is Gramophone Company. S in a circle Canadian Cartridge Company, Near the date is the Canadian Mark Broad Arrow in a C Edited 27 August , 2017 by 303man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyguest Posted 28 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2017 Wow! Thank you so much. Would this have been put into general use or used exclusively by the Canadians, do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 28 August , 2017 Share Posted 28 August , 2017 Wendy, Both Canadian and American companies made many millions of cartridge cases and fuzes for general artillery use. As the British contractors were unable to keep up with the demand. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 28 August , 2017 Share Posted 28 August , 2017 The MkII case was made in 1915. The date 5-1-16 at the 10 o'clock position is the date of acceptance inspection, with the 6 in an oval being the stamp identifying the inspector, and the pheon (broad arrow) in a letter C being the acceptance stamp (Canadian Land Service stamp). The three letter string - in this example AGF - appears to be a date ascending Lot code used on Canadian-made cases. The No.1 MkII primer was added to the case in the United Kingdom and as stated was made by the Gramophone Company - the "circles", with what looks like a fin sticking up, of the monogram represent a shellac record with a stylus applied. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyguest Posted 28 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2017 I am amazed that so much information is there! I have done some research into the Hayes factory - it looks enormous. Forgive my ignorance but am I right in thinking that the steel case was made in Canada and the shell filled with explosives (shrapnel?) and the base fitted at Hayes, then shipped to a Canadian unit or for general use? Was it used then re- filled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 28 August , 2017 Share Posted 28 August , 2017 (edited) The cartridge case is brass and was made in Canada (to a British Government contract) by the Canadian Cartridge Co., where it passed inspection for Service use and received a Canadian acceptance stamp. It was then shipped to the UK empty of both propellant and the primer. The primer is the part that gets struck by the firing pin in the gun, when the gun is fired; the flash from the primer then sets off the bundle of cordite propellant, which propels the steel shell out of the barrel on the way to its target. You are missing the steel shell which most often could be either a thick walled one containing high explosive, or a thin walled one containing 200-300 lead bullets (the Shrapnel balls). There were also various chemical filled shells available, for illumination, target identification, etc. The empty brass cartridge would have had the primer fitted and the cordite propellant inserted at a Gun Ammunition Filling facility. The empty primer in your example was made at the Gramophone Company, but would have been filled with percussion cap and flash charge at a filling station elsewhere. Usually both the cartridge case and the primer would have had separate filling marks stamped onto them, and it is somewhat unusual not to see such. The filled steel shell would also have been mated with the cartridge case at the GAF facility, and the whole round boxed for storage and shipping. The one component not added to the complete round until the time came to fire it was the time or percussion fuze, which was screwed on the front end of the shell. Attached is a drawing of a 13-pdr fixed Shrapnel round, which is very similar to an 18-pdr Shrapnel round, and shows the general layout. 265 Edited 28 August , 2017 by 14276265 Picture added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendyguest Posted 28 August , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2017 Thanks very much for your time and trouble. I think I've got it. Just been reading Richard Holmes's book, 'Tommy' on the effects of shrapnel. Sobering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh K Posted 29 December , 2018 Share Posted 29 December , 2018 Hi - I'm very new to the forum...thanks for having me! I have an 18 pounder shell case that has been used by my mother as an umbrella stand for the last 50 years, I'm keen to get some information about it. Can I post a picture here - or should I start a new thread? Thanks Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 29 December , 2018 Share Posted 29 December , 2018 (edited) Hugh, welcome. It's as good a place as any. Mike. Edited 29 December , 2018 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted 29 December , 2018 Share Posted 29 December , 2018 on the subject I was WW1 in colour over the holidays and they were showing production of the shell and cases. the interesting thing was that two girls followed each other stamping on the bottom of the cases. good to see how it was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh K Posted 30 December , 2018 Share Posted 30 December , 2018 Hi - and thanks Mikey H for the reply. Here's the base of a 18 ponder shell case used as an umbrella stand for pretty much all of my 56 years. Any information gratefully received. Thanks Hugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 30 December , 2018 Share Posted 30 December , 2018 (edited) Hugh, You have a mark 2 eighteen pounder cartridge case, dated October 1915, CF for cordite filled, so a shrapnel round rather than high explosive, Lot 77 the batch number, A in a circle indicates it has been fired once prior to refill. S shows it has been annealed the single punch mark indicates once. The case has passed through The Great Western Railway shop (GRY). Am unsure what the IM or MI in a box indicates, this was the original maker, or the twin arrows with an X overstamp. Mike. Edited 30 December , 2018 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 30 December , 2018 Share Posted 30 December , 2018 I thought CF meant ‘Charge, Full’? You can also get the marking CR which means ‘Charge, Reduced’. (Or did the meaning change over time?) Cordite would be the propellant in the cartridge case, not the bursting charge of a shrapnel shell or the payload of a high explosive shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 30 December , 2018 Share Posted 30 December , 2018 1 hour ago, peregrinvs said: I thought CF meant ‘Charge, Full’? You can also get the marking CR which means ‘Charge, Reduced’. (Or did the meaning change over time?) Cordite would be the propellant in the cartridge case, not the bursting charge of a shrapnel shell or the payload of a high explosive shell. peregrinvs, My error, you are correct CF for 'charge full', put it down to memory! Any ideas on the other 2 marks? Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 30 December , 2018 Share Posted 30 December , 2018 6 hours ago, MikeyH said: A in a circle indicates it has been fired once prior to refill. S shows it has been annealed the single punch mark indicates once. Not quite what the A and S marks mean. The case has been filled Full Charge twice, hence the CFF. After the first firing it was sent to the Great Western Railway depot at Swindon for repair, where it was high temperature annealed (A and a punch mark) and tested for hardness with a scleroscope (S and punch mark). The case was split at the mouth but repairable by brazing, as indicated by the circle with double arrow. Once so repaired, the mark was barred out. The case was made in the US by Ireland and Matthews Manufacturing Company, Detroit (MI monogram), subcontracting for EW Bliss Co., Brooklyn (EWBC monogram over-stamped by the scleroscope S). The use of the word LOT is also typically a US marking. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 265, Many thanks for clarification, had seen that double arrow mark only once previously. Ireland and Matthews is a maker I have not come across before. I picked up a nice 18 pounder cartridge case by The MacFarlane Electrical Company London, a few weeks ago. They are utilised to store bayonets, each holds around six complete with scabbards. Regards Mike. 15 hours ago, 14276265 said: Not quite what the A and S marks mean. The case has been filled Full Charge twice, hence the CFF. After the first firing it was sent to the Great Western Railway depot at Swindon for repair, where it was high temperature annealed (A and a punch mark) and tested for hardness with a scleroscope (S and punch mark). The case was split at the mouth but repairable by brazing, as indicated by the circle with double arrow. Once so repaired, the mark was barred out. The case was made in the US by Ireland and Matthews Manufacturing Company, Detroit (MI monogram), subcontracting for EW Bliss Co., Brooklyn (EWBC monogram over-stamped by the scleroscope S). The use of the word LOT is also typically a US marking. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 3 hours ago, MikeyH said: I picked up a nice 18 pounder cartridge case by The MacFarlane Electrical Company London, a few weeks ago. Mike, It would be interesting to see the headstamp if you have an image available - I'm assuming a manufacturer monogram of M.A.C. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh K Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 Mikey H, Peregrinvs and 265 - many thanks...really interesting - your knowledge and explanations are very gratefully received. I'll post a picture of the side of case later, just for reference. All the best for 2019 HughK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 (edited) On 31/12/2018 at 13:24, 14276265 said: Mike, It would be interesting to see the headstamp if you have an image available - I'm assuming a manufacturer monogram of M.A.C. 265 265, Here's a non too clear photo of latest 18 pounder cartridge case headstamp. Marks, 18 PR 11, B below circled broad arrow, under that date stamp 21 2 16,. Makers mark M.A.C.n, below that 184 E, also carries date 1916 and CF and F. The primer marked No.1 11, also PE, has a capital letter C, with a downstoke through it, a date number 16, has been overstruck what looks like again a partial broad arrow within a circle. Mike. Edited 2 January , 2019 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 Mike, thank you for the image. The case is Canadian, made by Montreal Ammunition Co. Ignore the N by the monogram - the N, B and E are inspection marks from the various stages of manufacture. 184 is of course the Lot number. Broad arrow in what appears a full circle is a Canadian acceptance stamp, the date of inspection for acceptance being 21 February 1916. The primer is also Canadian, but I'm not sure if the maker's monogram is PE or RE. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 5 January , 2019 Share Posted 5 January , 2019 (edited) On 02/01/2019 at 19:07, 14276265 said: Mike, thank you for the image. The case is Canadian, made by Montreal Ammunition Co. Ignore the N by the monogram - the N, B and E are inspection marks from the various stages of manufacture. 184 is of course the Lot number. Broad arrow in what appears a full circle is a Canadian acceptance stamp, the date of inspection for acceptance being 21 February 1916. The primer is also Canadian, but I'm not sure if the maker's monogram is PE or RE. 265 265, Many thanks, I was convinced it was by MacFarlane. Yes, I am aware of Canadian marks, but failed to recognise them this time, 'there are none so blind....'! Primer mark is definitely PE. Regards, Mike. Edited 5 January , 2019 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14276265 Posted 6 January , 2019 Share Posted 6 January , 2019 Mike, MacFarlane Electrical didn't make cartridge cases, but they made smaller shell components such as plugs. Unfortunately I can find no decode for the monogram PE. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buelligan Posted 24 December , 2019 Share Posted 24 December , 2019 (edited) I'm very new to the forum but absolutely fascinated by these base stampings (and how to decode them). Are there any books or reference sources you'd recommend? I too was looking for information on a M.A.C stamp (4.5 howitzer) and had assumed from the nothing I've managed to pick up that it indicated McFarlane, so thank you, 14276265, for teaching me it does not. I really want to learn but there seems to be a dearth of reliable material to teach myself with. All advice gratefully accepted. Edited 24 December , 2019 by Buelligan To find out what effect editing has on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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