Discharged Termination of Engagement

[Guest]

A query on another thread has rekindled an old unanswered question. The Grenadier Guards' 1914 Star medal roll has 122 men who were "Discharged Termination of Engagement" (DTE); men fighting the good fight in the front line reached a critical date and could go home. In theory a man who was due to be discharged at the end of his normal service could be retained by the Army for another year if circumstances required. The Grenadier Guardsmen on the 1914 Star roll would all be Regulars or Army Reservists.

 

On the Grenadier Guards' roll the earliest DTE date is 2nd March 1915 and the latest date is 17th Sep 1917*. I am curious to understand why no men appear to have been DTE after 17th Sep 1917. The War had another 14 months to run to Armistice day or 18 months until large scale demobilization in March 1919. It seems statistically unlikely that no Grenadier Guardsmen had reached the end of their service in those last 14 - 18 months. If anyone could help answer the following I would be grateful:

 

1. In a scenario where a man had his service extended for a year and this overlapped with the outbreak of the war, would he still be "Discharged Time Expired" (DTE) at the end of the 13th year? (12 years + 1 year extension)

 

2. Once Conscription came in and a DTE man was still eligible (within the age and fitness requirements), what was the process? Would he still be DTE and re-enlisted, given a new number and start again...or did the Amy dispense with the process of discharging him and simply extend his service? A man having joined at, say 18 and served 12 years + 1 year would still only be 31 and well within the age criteria for conscription under the Military Services Act 1916.

 

3. Did the 1 year extension ever become 'for the duration'? Did the regulations change after Sep 1917? 

 

Martin

 

*The men in the earlier groups start with Army Number 10400** range and those in the last have Army numbers in the 10900*** range. For example 10444 Pte Arthur James joined on 26th Augut 1902 and was discharged on 25th Aug 1915 and his mucker 10445 was discharged on 26th Aug 1915, which seems to suggest a precise time frame is being adhered to. 

 

Edit. To complicate things mixed into the scores of 10XXX men are a number of men with four-digit numbers starting with 77 i.e 7730 Pte George Elliot (joined 2nd Nov 1898) and 7731 Pte Thomas Whitlock (joined 2nd Nov 1898) discharged on 7th Nov 1916 and 26th Nov 1916 respectively. I had assumed these were Long Service wallahs who joined in 1898 and were being discharged after 18 years continuous service, however 7730 was a Section D man who had signed on for 4 more years on the Reserve in 1911. 7731 (also Section D) did however serve 17 years and 25 days which again raises some questions on why 17 years + a few days? 

 

Edit 2. 7731  appears to have been Discharged Medically Unfit (DMU) which is at odds with the annotation on the 1914 Star roll.

 

** joined in 1902-1903, 

***joined in 1903-1904 

Edited 20 August , 2017 by Guest

[ss002d6252]

1) I can't see why not - if he was retained in service in to the 13th year he was still regarded as being on active duty and still subject to the KR's in Aug 14. I can't get to my KR's etc at the moment but I think the wording is to the effect that it was a flat rate of an addition of 1 year on the outbreak of war and no mention is made of how long a man had already served.

That being said, there are men who I have see as well who were discharged Time-Expired within the first 12 months of the war so there seems to have been some flexibility in the issue as far as the army were concerned.There are also cases I've seen where a man served just over the 12 months - I suspect it was simply a case of the circumstances and the paperwork catching up.

 

2) Certainly with the Territorial's I've looked that the service just continued onwards with no change of numbering etc.

3) I think that the 1 year would have effectively ceased to have any any effect by May 1917 - by that point most men who was due for discharge would have automatically fallen under the Session 2 of the MSA and been retained in the army. How old were the men in question - where they over 41 ?
 

Craig

Edited 20 August , 2017 by ss002d6252

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

1) I can't see why not - if he was retained in service in to the 13th year he was still regarded as being on active duty and still subject to the KR's in Aug 14. I can't get to my KR's etc at the moment but I think the wording is to the effect that it was a flat rate of an addition of 1 year on the outbreak of war and no mention is made of how long a man had already served. That is my understanding but it would be nice to cast the net wide and see if there was consistency

That being said, there are men who I have see as well who were discharged Time-Expired within the first 12 months of the war so there seems to have been some flexibility in the issue as far as the army were concerned.Ditto. I have seen this too. Difficult to explain, particularly within the Grenadier Guards as they were not serving overseas pre-war so one wonders how a man is DTE within 12 months of the start of the War. In theory they would be held for a year. There are also cases I've seen where a man served just over the 12 months - I suspect it was simply a case of the circumstances and the paperwork catching up.

 

2) Certainly with the Territorial's I've looked that the service just continued onwards with no change of numbering etc.

3) I think that the 1 year would have effectively ceased to have any any effect by May 1917 - by that point most men who was due for discharge would have automatically fallen under the Session 2 of the MSA and been retained in the army. How old were the men in question - where they over 41 ? I am checking their ages.
 

Craig

 

Thanks Craig. We seem to be on the same page. My comments in blue. I notice that some on the rolls are "Discharged Termination of Engagement" and some are "Discharged Termination of Engagement 1st Period". I wonder if the "1st Period" in the latter implies there was a 2nd Period starting imminently. I need to do some careful checking. If these men were re-enlisted and given new numbers and remained in the same Regiments presumably the BWM roll would show both numbers. I need to do some checking.

 

Martin

[ss002d6252]

With respect to the 'period' i think i have the answer to that but I'll post when I get back home.

 

Craig

[tullybrone]

Hi Martin,

 

I can answer your part 2 from my gf papers. Enlisted CG Sept 1905 - recalled reservist Aug 1914 - 12 years Service commitment expired Sept 1917 + 1 year takes us to Sept 1918.

 

There is a stamp on his statement of services date Sept 1918 (I've seen same stamp on other CG men's papers) with words to the effect "Retained in Service under Military Service Act 1916 - Session 2"  followed by another stamp " £20 Bounty Paid - £6 6s 8d to man - remainder to pay account". His B103 shows he also received a months leave mid Sept until mid Oct 1918 (in addition to usual annual 10 days) as part of his retention bonus - again I've seen similar on other files.

 

Sorry can't quote the relevant Army Order.

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

PS The use of the term "Discharge Termination of Engagement 1st Period" certainly precedes outbreak of WW1. I've seen the phrase on discharge documents of CG discharged time expired from the Edwardian Army. 

 

The front page of Army form B2056 "Proceedings on Transfer to the Army Reserve" has 3 columns named "On 1st Transfer" etc.

Edited 20 August , 2017 by tullybrone

[Guest]

Checking the DTE men in the 10400-11000 range I am finding lots of Grenadier Guardsmen discharged after exactly 13 years. Most enlisted as 18 year olds meaning when they were discharged in 1916 they would sstill be eligible under the MAS...but then the paper trail goes cold.

 

Example.

 

10809 Pte George Edward Longshaw

Enlisted 16th Apr 1903 aged 18 years and 10 months

Discharged 15th Apr 1916 aged 31 years and 10 months

 

On the 1914 Star Roll (disembarked 20th Sep 1914. 2nd Bn Grenadier Guards

On the BWM roll 

 

Given he is on the GG BWM roll, I think this would imply he had not served in another Regiment. Happy to be corrected. I cant discover where he ended up after April 1916. 

 

Martin

Edited 26 September , 2017 by Guest

[ss002d6252]

The 'period' in my experience always relates to the enlistment term - in pre-war men who had served a term and then signed up again to extend this to a further term of service the records are often annotated to indicate the 'first period' and 'second period' etc.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, QGE said:

Checking the DTE men in the 10400-11000 range I am finding lost of Grenadier Guardsmen dichached after exactly 13 years. Most enlisted as 18 year olds meaning when they were discharged in 1916 they would sstill be eligible under the MAS...but then the paper trail goes cold.

 

Example.

 

10809 Pte George Edward Longshaw

Enlisted 16th Apr 1903 aged 18 years and 10 months

Discharged 15th Apr 1916 aged 31 years and 10 months

 

On the 1914 Star Roll (disembarked 20th Sep 1914. 2nd Bn Grenadier Guards

On the BWM roll 

 

Given he is on the GG BWM roll, I think this would imply he had not served in another Regiment. Happy to be corrected. I cant discover where he ended up after April 1916. 

 

Martin

Seems the Guards were a stickler for the rules as usual.

He was discharged early enough to have avoided the MSA Session 2 under which they'd usually have simply been retained in service.

It's possible that further service was at home, he was found to be medically unfit or he'd managed to get a job in an essential occupation. I would agree that the Guards sorting his medals would suggest to me that he hadn't served on with anyone else.

Craig

[spof]

50 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

He was discharged early enough to have avoided the MSA Session 2 under which they'd usually have simply been retained in service.

 

I've also seen some men who were DTE but then failed the medical and were awarded an SWB as a result. Is he on the SWB rolls?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, tullybrone said:

Hi Martin,

 

I can answer your part 2 from my gf papers. Enlisted CG Sept 1905 - recalled reservist Aug 1914 - 12 years Service commitment expired Sept 1917 + 1 year takes us to Sept 1918.

 

There is a stamp on his statement of services date Sept 1918 (I've seen same stamp on other CG men's papers) with words to the effect "Retained in Service under Military Service Act 1916 - Session 2"  followed by another stamp " £20 Bounty Paid - £6 6s 8d to man - remainder to pay account". His B103 shows he also received a months leave mid Sept until mid Oct 1918 (in addition to usual annual 10 days) as part of his retention bonus - again I've seen similar on other files.

 

Sorry can't quote the relevant Army Order.

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

PS The use of the term "Discharge Termination of Engagement 1st Period" certainly precedes outbreak of WW1. I've seen the phrase on discharge documents of CG discharged time expired from the Edwardian Army. 

 

The front page of Army form B2056 "Proceedings on Transfer to the Army Reserve" has 3 columns named "On 1st Transfer" etc.

 

Thanks. At least it demonstrates that under Session 2 they had dispensed with the 'discharged and re-enlisted' and simply retained the individual. It seemed a far more practical solution. Nice to see that they at least gave him some decent leave. 

 

My only concern is whether different Regiments had different responses. For example there were reasonably clear instructions in an Army Order on how to compile the medal rolls, yet among the five regiments of Foot Guards there were four distinctly different methodologies used. 

 

If I look at my Grenadier Guards, none of the 120 men DTE on the 1914 Star roll appear to have re-enlisted with the Grenadier Guards. The BWM rolls only record a single Army Number for these men. My concerns are that they served elsewhere, but if that was the case I would expect them to appear on other Regiments' medal rolls, particulary as the rolls were prepared towards the end of the war or after the war. 

 

Trying to search for men who had previously served with the Grenadiers on other regiments rolls is beyond the search capabilities of Ancestry, so I am rather stuck. I am now thinking some must have served again and died, so the CWGC data might turns some up...... 

 

Martin 

Edited 20 August , 2017 by Guest

[ss002d6252]

 

Quote

Trying to search for men who had previously served with the Grenadiers on other regiments rolls is beyond the search capabilities of Ancestry, so I am rather stuck. I am now thinking some must have served again and died, so the CWGC data might turns some up...... 

That would be my thought as well - some of the men will have been killed and wounded if they served again. The problem is whether there are enough identifiable names to pick the men out again.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, spof said:

 

I've also seen some men who were DTE but then failed the medical and were awarded an SWB as a result. Is he on the SWB rolls?

I can't see Longshaw on the SWB rolls.

Craig

[Guest]

Another random example.

 

No. 10726 Pte John James Windridge

 

Enlisted 4th Feb 1903 aged 18 year 3 month. Terms of engagement 3 & 9. To Section B Army Reserve 4th March 1906. Mobilized 4th Aug 1914. Disembarked France 12th Nov 1914. DTE 3rd Feb 1916 exactly 13 years after enlisting.

 

GG 1914 Star and BWM &VM rolls. No other records yet found. He would have been 31 years and 3 months on discharge a few day after the MSA became law. Again this is very typical of the scores of men in this category.

 

here are the 122 sorted by Army Number; The relationship between Army Number and the implied dates of enlistment and the dates of becoming DTE are not perfect but the correlation is very high.

 

No	Rank	SURNAME	Initials	Disembarkation	Fate	Date
1788	CQMS	PEET	W	13/08/1914	DTE	02/03/1915
4534	Sgt	PICKFORD	F A	06/10/1914	DTE	23/08/1915
5228	Pte	WHALLEY	T	12/11/1914	DTE	15/09/1915
5871	Pte	EDWARDS	J	12/11/1914	DTE	20/10/1915
7368	Sgt	GRAY	A	12/11/1914	DTE	12/09/1915
7701	Pte	SMITH	R	12/11/1914	DTE	29/10/1915
7730	Pte	ELLIOTT	G	12/11/1914	DTE	07/11/1915
7731	Pte	WHITLOCK	T	12/11/1914	DTE	26/11/1915
7762	Pte	BROOKS	F	12/11/1914	DTE	24/11/1915
7777	Pte	TILBURY	C	12/11/1914	DTE	10/01/1916
7791	Pte	POWELL	W	12/11/1914	DTE	13/12/1915
7793	Pte	TRUBODY	W G	12/11/1914	DTE	13/12/1915
7806	Pte	RIGBY	A	12/11/1914	DTE	25/12/1915
7810	L/Sgt	BAKER	A	20/09/1914	DTE	30/12/1915
7815	Pte	ARCHER	E H	12/11/1914	DTE	19/01/1916
7821	Pte	MARDLE	J	12/11/1914	DTE	03/01/1916
7915	Pte	GODDARD	C	08/11/1914	DTE	07/02/1916
7930	Pte	HUNT	J	12/11/1914	DTE	14/02/1916
7957	Pte	MOUNTNEY	J	12/11/1914	DTE	01/03/1916
7973	Sgt	TIMBEY	J	08/11/1914	DTE	10/03/1916
7978	Pte	SMITH	J	12/11/1914	DTE	12/03/1916
7993	Pte	JONES	S	12/11/1914	DTE	19/03/1916
7997	Pte	GREEN	H	12/11/1914	DTE	10/01/1916
8089	Pte	TILLING	H F	12/11/1914	DTE	31/05/1916
8284	Pte	SOUTHWICK	W	12/11/1914	DTE	10/10/1916
8360	Pte	SELLINGS	W T	12/11/1914	DTE	07/11/1916
8673	Pte	ROBERTS	J V	12/11/1914	DTE	18/07/1917
8784	L/Cpl	JOHNSON	F	12/11/1914	DTE	09/03/1917
8935	Pte	COLLEDGE	G E	12/11/1914	DTE	18/07/1917
9042	Pte	WOOD	H T	06/10/1914	DTE	09/03/1917
9895	Pte	HAMMAND	A	12/11/1914	DTE	17/09/1917
10062	L/Cpl	SIMPSON	F S	12/11/1914	DTE	08/09/1915
10409	Pte	BROOKS	F H	20/09/1914	DTE	12/08/1915
10414	Pte	WHITTAKER	H	06/10/1914	DTE	07/08/1915
10418	Pte	HULL	E J	20/09/1914	DTE	10/08/1915
10430	Pte	DINWIDDIE	A	12/11/1914	DTE	11/08/1915
10439	Pte	HILL	G F	06/10/1914	DTE	24/08/1915
10444	Pte	JAMES	A	12/11/1914	DTE	25/08/1915
10445	Pte	SMITH	P J	21/09/1914	DTE	26/08/1915
10454	L/Cpl	KNIGHT	G	12/11/1914	DTE	01/09/1915
10455	Pte	WILLIAMS	E	12/11/1914	DTE	01/09/1915
10456	Pte	TURLEY	W	12/11/1914	DTE	15/09/1915
10467	Pte	GOLD	H	19/10/1914	DTE	12/09/1915
10472	Pte	BOSLEY	E	20/09/1914	DTE	15/09/1915
10473	Sgt	CROOK	A	12/11/1914	DTE	16/09/1915
10478	Cpl	SPIERS	T	06/10/1914	DTE	17/09/1915
10494	Pte	HANBY	J W	20/09/1914	DTE	29/09/1915
10500	Pte	HUTCHINSON	F	08/11/1914	DTE	29/09/1915
10504	Pte	HUBBARD	J C	12/11/1914	DTE	28/09/1915
10511	Pte	HOWLAND	C	12/11/1914	DTE	05/10/1915
10521	Pte	CAVES	W	20/09/1914	DTE	09/10/1915
10533	Pte	BOSTOCK	J	12/11/1914	DTE	21/10/1915
10534	Pte	FRANCE	J S	20/09/1914	DTE	16/10/1915
10540	Pte	WRIGGLESWORTH	F C	21/09/1914	DTE	29/10/1915
10541	L/Sgt	WRIGGLESWORTH	J	08/11/1914	DTE	27/10/1915
10546	Pte	WYATT	C	12/09/1914	DTE	31/10/1915
10548	Pte	MILLINGTON	S	08/11/1914	DTE	02/11/1915
10549	Pte	JONES	A	06/10/1914	DTE	06/11/1915
10550	Pte	MCGRATH	J	12/11/1914	DTE	10/11/1915
10551	Pte	WADE	F G	12/11/1914	DTE	17/11/1915
10553	Pte	WILKINS	W	12/11/1914	DTE	10/11/1915
10561	Pte	MARSH	E H	22/08/1914	DTE	10/11/1915
10563	Pte	MITCHELL	J W	08/11/1914	DTE	10/11/1915
10571	Pte	PYWELL	J W	12/11/1914	DTE	22/11/1915
10575	Sgt	JARROLD	D	20/09/1914	DTE	17/11/1915
10589	Pte	CORAM	J	12/11/1914	DTE	25/11/1916
10596	Pte	FOULGER	W G	08/11/1914	DTE	02/12/1915
10598	Pte	PENNY	E W	13/08/1914	DTE	02/12/1915
10600	Pte	LANGSTON	A H	13/08/1914	DTE	02/12/1915
10601	Pte	GREEN	F T	12/1191914	DTE	03/12/1915
10603	Pte	GEE	E	12/09/1914	DTE	05/12/1915
10617	Pte	STOCK	H	06/10/1914	DTE	09/12/1915
10620	Pte	PRICE	E	08/11/1914	DTE	05/12/1915
10626	Pte	GIFFORD	A	08/11/1914	DTE	04/12/1915
10636	Pte	MYNHAN	P	20/09/1914	DTE	30/12/1915
10637	Pte	BUCKINGHAM	G	12/11/1914	DTE	28/12/1915
10658	Pte	BROWN	J	12/11/1914	DTE	03/01/1916
10659	Pte	TURVEY	J	13/08/1914	DTE	06/01/1916
10663	Pte	HEALEY	S	20/09/1914	DTE	10/01/1916
10677	Pte	COOPER	A	12/11/1914	DTE	11/01/1916
10685	Pte	MORGAN	S G	19/10/1914	DTE	13/01/1916
10688	Pte	FISHER	T W	20/09/1914	DTE	15/01/1916
10691	Pte	JOHNSON	R F	12/11/1914	DTE	14/01/1916
10693	Sgt	BOYCE	W J	13/08/1914	DTE	14/01/1916
10696	Pte	THOROGOOD	F	12/11/1914	DTE	19/01/1916
10705	Pte	SELL	A J	12/11/1914	DTE	20/01/1916
10713	Pte	BENDELOW	G	20/09/1914	DTE	27/01/1916
10726	Pte	WINDRIDGE	J J	12/11/1914	DTE	03/02/1916
10728	Pte	BRADFORD	F	12/09/1914	DTE	02/02/1916
10736	L/Cpl	HOBBS	W	12/11/1914	DTE	06/02/1916
10748	Pte	CARTER	T	12/11/1914	DTE	16/02/1916
10753	Pte	ZOLLNER	J	13/08/1914	DTE	20/02/1916
10758	L/Cpl	WRIGHT	W D	06/10/1914	DTE	23/02/1916
10762	Pte	WALSH	J	21/09/1914	DTE	01/03/1916
10767	Pte	DEW	J	12/11/1914	DTE	24/02/1916
10771	Pte	SWAN	R H	08/11/1914	DTE	09/03/1916
10773	Pte	IRISH	A H	20/09/1914	DTE	11/03/1916
10775	Pte	SKINNER	A C	21/09/1914	DTE	11/03/1916
10776	Pte	HIGGINS	J	06/10/1914	DTE	13/03/1916
10782	Pte	JONES	W	08/11/1914	DTE	21/03/1916
10790	Pte	RICHMOND	W G	12/11/1914	DTE	22/03/1916
10791	Pte	TAMS	W	06/10/1914	DTE	23/03/1916
10792	Pte	OAKHILL	E	20/09/1914	DTE	23/03/1916
10793	Pte	MORLEY	R	12/11/1914	DTE	27/03/1916
10797	Pte	PAGE	H	20/09/1914	DTE	29/03/1916
10798	Pte	BROMLEY	G H	13/08/1914	DTE	29/03/1916
10804	Pte	EGGLETON	A	08/11/1914	DTE	02/04/1916
10807	Pte	ALBONE	W	22/08/1914	DTE	06/04/1916
10809	Pte	LONGSHAW	G E	20/09/1914	DTE	15/04/1916
10817	Pte	HOWARD	J	12/11/1914	DTE	28/04/1916
10818	Pte	JONES	T	12/11/1914	DTE	29/04/1916
10821	Pte	BILLINGE	F	11/11/1914	DTE	04/05/1916
10823	Pte	BEDWARD	C	20/09/1914	DTE	08/05/1916
10827	Dmr	BIRCH	C	13/08/1914	DTE	13/05/1916
10830	Pte	WRIGHT	H	06/10/1914	DTE	12/05/1916
10837	Pte	BROOME	A	20/09/1914	DTE	20/05/1916
10842	Pte	KINGS	W T	06/10/1914	DTE	24/05/1916
11070	Pte	DAWN	W	06/10/1914	DTE	30/12/1916
11263	Pte	NAISH	F J	08/11/1914	DTE	11/01/1917
11646	Pte	DUDLEY	E	12/09/1914	DTE	18/07/1917
11930	Pte	ALLSOP	C	20/09/1914	DTE	09/03/1917
12158	Pte	JORDAN	W T	20/09/1914	DTE	18/07/1917

Edited 20 August , 2017 by Guest

[Perth Digger]

6 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

There are also cases I've seen where a man served just over the 12 months - I suspect it was simply a case of the circumstances and the paperwork catching up

Craig

It may also have been due to days lost in service from periods of AWOL.

 

Mike

[RussT]

John James Windridge - if you scroll backwards from your link, I think you will find him re-enlisting into the ASC on 24/06/1916 with number 399008

 

And he also appears on the ASC BWM/VM roll - medal claimed by the GG

 

 

 

Russ

Edited 20 August , 2017 by RussT

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone for their continued input. All very useful guidance in attempting to map this space.

 

while on a different mission I stumbled on Sgt John McIlwain' diary (2nd Bn Connaught Rangers, wounded at Ypres, then 5th Bn Connaught Rangers at Gallipoli). On reaching the end of 16 years (7 and 5 (=12) plus 4 years on Section D of the Reserve) he applied for discharge. His CO Jourdain was displeased. The immediate effect was to demote him from A/CSM to Sgt. McIlwain had a very low opinion of his CO and Adjutant who he described respectively as hysterical and a bounder. 

 

 

I cant find McIlwain on any BWM roll so I don't know his ultimate fate. I don't believe he got his DTE that year (1915).

Edit. Found. went to the Reserve Class Z 25th July 1919....which means he served 19 years in all. Importantly no DTE. 

 

Edit 2. Pension Record

 

On 23rd Oct 1916, exactly 17 years after enlisting he "Continued in the Service under the Military Services Act (Session 2)" as CQMS. awarded a bounty of £20.00.

 

It is unclear to me if this was voluntary or compulsory. In theory his time was up and his Pension record shows no sign of extending beyond 12 years. Could this be linked to his Section D commitments I wonder? Edit. It is probably because he was 36 years and 7 months and still liable under the age criteria.

Edited 21 August , 2017 by Guest