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Remembered Today:

Kitchener's Bugle

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch

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depaor01
3 hours ago, Skipman said:

It's because Irish and Scottish Gaelic are Q-Celtic languages and Welsh and  Cornish are P-Celtic languages. 

 

So Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogooglegoch says.

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike, although based on my siliogogoogling, the substitution of P for Q should render Welsh comprehensible to semi-Gaelic speakers like myself. It doesn't. 

Dave

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Steven Broomfield
1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

 

 

Oh please stop...my sides are splitting!

That joke seems to get funnier every time you tell it.:lol:

 

I'm very fond of it.

 

Love the church memorial, by the way.

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seaJane

Diolch yn fawr for the explanation, Dai :)

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clive_hughes

Dave, I empathise - it should work the other way around as well, but listening to Q-Celtic speech I can't understand it.  Reading it isn't much better either, but there is some shared vocabulary as well as grammar - eg. "Leg", cois in Irish - coes in Welsh; or "Black", dubh in Gaelic, du in Welsh.  Add one one extra Q-Celtic language in Manx, and one more P-Celtic in Breton.  

Mr Broomers, the two Celtic categories are based, it is said, on those languages which used Maq / Mac for "Son of..." (Q), and those using  Map / Ap (P).  You can now sleep soundly of nights!   (Aside: Thanks for the plug...your cheque is in the post!).  Re. the Chapel joke, it's quite true...when I lived in Pembrokeshire one of the small hill villages had two chapels of the same denomination, owing to an historic split.  

 

KB, lovely pictures, you obviously chose a good day and weren't overwhelmed by the busloads of shoppers attending the Scottish emporium next door (don't ask).  The other parish on the memorial is Penmynydd, which contains the original family home of the Tudor family (yes, THOSE Tudors).  Dai rightly says that there are several memorials covering the place, plus one more in the Llanfairpwll panel of the North Wales Heroes Memorial Arch in Bangor across the Menai Straits. I'd be surprised if the name-list is the same on any two of them...

 

Dai, I've got your brother's book, a very good study of the war as it affected one small locality of about 1,300 people.  He noted that the rate of volunteers averaged out at about one per week for the approx. 80 weeks from outbreak of hostilities to compulsion.  About another 120 were garnered during the 1916-18 period, making just over 13 per cent of the male population joining the Forces.  I picked up elsewhere that the architect who designed the clock memorial was the brother-in-law of Gunner Emyr J Willliams RFA, and also that there is a ghost story associated with the Gunner.  

 

 

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depaor01

Thanks Clive. I really will look further into that. 

Learned a lot in this thread.

 

Dave

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
1 hour ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Love the church memorial, by the way.

 

Thank you.

I grant you free unlimited lifetime reproduction rights.

(But not in the biological sense).

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Kitchener's Bugle
5 hours ago, Skipman said:

 

You're welcome. You might win Mastermind next time.

 

Haven't studied Welsh Regiments but can't remember ever seeing a Welsh named trench?

 

mike

 

No wonder when Ypres cannot be pronounced correctly :D

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Steven Broomfield

Out of interest (and possibly slightly off-yopic) I wonder how many communities had 'issues' with producing a war memorial in the way this commuity did? Some years ago I did some research into the war memorial(s) in the suburb of Southampton where I was living, West End. It was fascinating - the residents were fighting like ferrets in a sack over the matter, and eventually the Parish Council sub-committee took their ball home and refused to have any more to do with it.

 

The upshot was that the main village memorial was erected by a local dignitary at his own expense.

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clive_hughes

Mr B, I suspect it often happened where different vested interests or social groups were involved.  At Llanberis at the foot of Snowdon, the small rectangular pillar Memorial was dubbed "The Sauce Bottle" by some.  It was put up by the local council, I think, as their cheaper alternative to the veterans group who wanted a Memorial Hall instead.  

 

Welsh trench names?  I can just see Lieutenant X of the Blankshires telling his platoon that "We're going to take Rhosllannerchrugog Avenue, then advance down Dwygyfylchi Support - any questions?"  The message/signal forms would have been a treat to see...

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Indefatigable
16 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Indefatigable?

Any link to the training school in the village?

None that I know of, I was given both artefacts by a relative of marriage. They came from her late husband's family who hailed from Burton-on-Trent having been born in Derby. The grandfather attested in the 4th Battalion Coldstream Guards (Pioneers) aged 34 in March 1915 in London, he was married with two children. His occupation was as a Road Foreman and he was eventually posted to a construction company in 1917 (RE). He survived the war earning the usual three medals. His son was in the Military in WWII and was killed in Singapore during the Japanese Invasion leaving in Hong Kong his wife and child (the late husband who never knew his father).

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
1 minute ago, Indefatigable said:

None that I know of, I was given both artefacts by a relative of marriage. They came from her late husband's family who hailed from Burton-on-Trent having been born in Derby. The grandfather attested in the 4th Battalion Coldstream Guards (Pioneers) aged 34 in March 1915 in London, he was married with two children. His occupation was as a Road Foreman and he was eventually posted to a construction company in 1917 (RE). He survived the war earning the usual three medals. His son was in the Military in WWII and was killed in Singapore during the Japanese Invasion leaving in Hong Kong his wife and child (the late husband who never knew his father).

No.

I meant your user name?

HMS Indefatigable, a navy cadet training school in Llanfairpwllgw........

Closed down in the 1990s I think.

http://www.anglesey.info/ts indefatigable.htm

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Steven Broomfield
52 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 Llanfairpwllgw........

 

 

Oh. :(

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MikeyH

Slightly off topic, I can recall seeing the beached wreck of HMS Conway, the three masted training vessel in the Menai Strait.  This was clearly visible from the Menai Bridge, see from Google this happened in 1953, so must have been soon after, would have been nine or ten, amazing how some memories stand out.

 

Mike.

Edited by MikeyH

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clive_hughes

From memory (not mine, I was still in nappies) the Conway caught fire on Menai Bridge Fair night, a couple of years after she ran aground.  Probably not a coincidence - someone clearly had one too many sticks of Pwllheli No. 8 Rock...!

 

She was earlier in her career HMS Nile, and served in Napier's fleet in the Baltic War 1853-55.  

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Indefatigable
10 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

No.

I meant your user name?

HMS Indefatigable, a navy cadet training school in Llanfairpwllgw........

Closed down in the 1990s I think.

http://www.anglesey.info/ts indefatigable.htm

Many thanks for the link Dai Bach y Sowldiwr. I enjoyed the read.

 

My user name has nothing to do with WWI or any naval training facility, instead it refers to the aircraft carrier HMS Indefatigable of Task Force 57 fame from WWII. I use it because I like the word.

 

regards

 

Indefatigable

Edited by Indefatigable
Missed some text

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Fattyowls

Chums

 

This has been a fascinating thread to read, with interesting digressions throughout. It's also very educational and I will be able to amaze my friends at the breadth of my new found knowledge. Big thanks in particular to KB for this and his other current threads, especially the USS Texas one. Top work as ever KB.

 

Pete.

 

P.S. I like the two chapel gag. All this and laughs too.

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
1 hour ago, Fattyowls said:

P.S. I like the two chapel gag. All this and laughs too.

 

Oh no. Et tu Brute?

 

OK let's get back on topic.

In the first post (Second image), you can see A.B.    R.Hughes, lost on the SS Connemara.

This was a steamer, travelling the Greenore-Holyhead route.

She collided with another ship, the SS Retriever just off Greenore in November 1916 with a combined loss of over 90 lives.

The dead included crew,  and passengers including about 5 soldiers.

 

The ships were not lost as a result of enemy action.

The soldiers I believe are commemorated by the CWGC. One  whose body was found is buried at Carlingford.http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/663094/CARTER, EDWIN RIGHTON

 

But how did the CWGC classify the crew and passengers?

I can't see R.Hughes on the CWGC database, not even as a Civilian Casualty.

 

 

 

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jay dubaya
1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

Oh no. Et tu Brute?

 

OK let's get back on topic.

In the first post (Second image), you can see A.B.    R.Hughes, lost on the SS Connemara.

This was a steamer, travelling the Greenore-Holyhead route.

She collided with another ship, the SS Retriever just off Greenore in November 1916 with a combined loss of over 90 lives.

The dead included crew,  and passengers including about 5 soldiers.

 

The ships were not lost as a result of enemy action.

The soldiers I believe are commemorated by the CWGC. One  whose body was found is buried at Carlingford.http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/663094/CARTER, EDWIN RIGHTON

 

But how did the CWGC classify the crew and passengers?

I can't see R.Hughes on the CWGC database, not even as a Civilian Casualty.

 

 

 

 An old post from forum member Terry Denham

'The Mercantile Marine was one of what are called the Recognised Civilian Organisations.

There were not too many of these during WW1 but far more during WW2.

Members of one of these RCOs are entitled to War Grave status and CWGC listing if they died whilst on duty AND of a war cause or the increased threat brought on by war.

Therefore a merchant seaman who died because of a collision does not qualify but a seaman who died when his ship hit a mine does.'

 

Apparently Seaman Richard Hughes was a passenger and not crew of SS Connemara.

The serving soldiers who are all commemorated by the CWGC are;

Private Edwin R Carter, London, 1st King Edward's Horse Regiment.

Private John S Cooke, North Staffs Regiment.

Private F Diver, Royal Garrison Artillery.

Sapper Phillip G Goodfellow, Newry, Co. Down.

Sgt. Major W J Iliffe, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

Private Ernest T Knowles, Wigan 59th Sanitary Section

Private Robert A Kenna, Irish Guards, formally R.I.C.

Sapper George H Logan, Shankhill, Co. Antrim.

Private James Lomax, Royal Irish Fusiliers, Warrington.

Private Nolan, RAMC, stationed in Dundalk and Garston.

Private Joseph Perry, 3rd Battalion, Manchester Regiment.

Private Jack Whittaker, 3rd Battalion, Manchester Regiment.

 

 

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clive_hughes

Jaydubya quite right: Richard Hughes was a merchant seaman passenger on the Connemara.   His body was identified afterwards, and brought home for burial in the parish churchyard.  He has no other commemoration other than at LlanfairPG.  

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

Thanks jw and Clive.

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temptage
On 8/13/2017 at 14:10, Steven Broomfield said:

As ever, Mr Bugle, thanks.

 

Can anyone translate the Welsh inscription, please? Also interesting to see the Second World War is in English: changing demographics?

As seen as nobody else has attempted a translation, this is what it is according to Google

 

Y Rhyfel Mawr                                                            The Great War
arwyddlun o serch ac                                                  Emblem of love and
edmygedd at ein dewrion                                     Admiration to our brains (!?!?!?!?)
a roes eu bywyd dros wlad                                          Who gave them life over a country
a brenin ar dir a mor                                                    King on land and sea

 

but if you remove one letter it reads better

 

 

 

 Y Rhyfel Mawr                                                            The Great War
arwyddlun o serch ac                                                  Emblem of love and
edmygedd at ein dewrio                                         Admiration to our courage
a roes eu bywyd dros wlad                                          Who gave them life over a country
a brenin ar dir a mor                                                    King on land and sea

Edited by temptage

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
9 hours ago, temptage said:

As seen as nobody else has attempted a translation, this is what it is according to Google

 

Y Rhyfel Mawr                                                            The Great War
arwyddlun o serch ac                                                  Emblem of love and
edmygedd at ein dewrion                                     Admiration to our brains (!?!?!?!?)
a roes eu bywyd dros wlad                                          Who gave them life over a country
a brenin ar dir a mor                                                    King on land and sea

 

but if you remove one letter it reads better

 

 

 

 Y Rhyfel Mawr                                                            The Great War
arwyddlun o serch ac                                                  Emblem of love and
edmygedd at ein dewrio                                         Admiration to our courage
a roes eu bywyd dros wlad                                          Who gave them life over a country
a brenin ar dir a mor                                                    King on land and sea

 

I believe you'll find the correct translation by a proper human expert in post #4.

 

Tell me... what else do you trust Google for?

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healdav

I read somewhere that the name was invented to encourage tourists when the railway was built. No idea whether that is true., but my guess would be that it is.

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Ron Clifton
On 8/13/2017 at 21:18, clive_hughes said:

Dave, I empathise - it should work the other way around as well, but listening to Q-Celtic speech I can't understand it.  Reading it isn't much better either, but there is some shared vocabulary as well as grammar - eg. "Leg", cois in Irish - coes in Welsh; or "Black", dubh in Gaelic, du in Welsh.  Add one one extra Q-Celtic language in Manx, and one more P-Celtic in Breton.  

I remember once pointing out to one of my Scottish friends that sassenach doesn't mean southerner i.e. English. The Welsh is seisneg and the Cornish is sawznack. He readily agreed that no Cornishman would call an Englishman a southerner.

 

The Celtic words are actually derived from sachsenisch, i.e. Saxon.

 

Ron

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
1 hour ago, healdav said:

I read somewhere that the name was invented to encourage tourists when the railway was built. No idea whether that is true., but my guess would be that it is.

 

Yes, so 'tis said.

Invented by a local poet/bard called John Evans, whose bardic name was 'Y Bardd Cocos' (The Cockle Bard).

Very much in the William McGonagall/Spike Milligan genre of poetic wisdom he also wrote a gem about the four stone mock classical lions that guard the two approaches into Stephenson's Britannia bridge.

 

Pedwar llew tew

Heb ddim blew

Dau 'rochor hyn

A dau 'rochor drew

 

"Four lions fat

Lying flat

Two side this

Two side that".

 

Of course it loses a lot in the translation - in the Welsh, the lions are hairless.

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

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