The London Regiment (TF) - Recruiting and Demographics.

[johnboy]

If they were full, he might try another Battalion's recruiting office mening he would have to walk across London. 

There were buses and trains. As said somewhere else , men travelled from  london to the city for work.

Some men might have been Reservists and could have been instructed where to go. The RF recruited outside London and newspapers carried ads of where and when recruiting would take place. They drew men from outside London, The Midlands and the north of England.most battalions were formed at Hounslow {admin HQ?} They raise  47 battalions 

 

 

[Perth Digger]

Martin

75% of the service records of the Originals of the 11th Battalion survive, which makes these calculations possible. I have inferred the other dates from Regimental numbers. I have been helped with all this by Longboat (Stuart), who has generously shared his data with me. This is for a book that no one on here will read (quite rightly), as it will cost £95 (guess which publisher?).

 

The numbers range from G/8000 to G/11500. There was in reality no second line for the 11th, although the 12th (Reserve) Battalion took some of the sick and underaged, but also from the 10th (County) Battalion too, which was raised at the same time in Maidstone. Both the 10th and the 11th were given blocks of numbers between G/8000 and G/11500, so I cannot be sure how many 11th men are missing from my data. But it's unlikely to be more than 100, although Longboat knows much more about the numbering than I do. Whatever the number, it's a very big "sample" of the last volunteers in South London.

 

MIke

Edited 31 August , 2017 by Perth Digger
typo

[squirrel]

FWIW one of the Beechey boys went to the Recruiting Office at Scotland Yard (it is not clear if he volunteered or was conscripted -this would be mid 1916) where the London Irish Rifles recruiting Office was located. From there, after a medical inspection, he was sent to the Duke of York's HQ King's Road Chelsea home of the18th battalion London Regiment (LIR) and joined the 3/18th battalion there.

[MBrockway]

On 29/08/2017 at 15:10, MBrockway said:

I stress AGAIN, I have seen no evidence whatever of any "no poaching" regulations between the nationally recruiting infantry regiments (Guards, KRRC and RB) and the locally recruiting regiments in the metropolitan areas.

 

 

 

Martin's excellent analyses have clearly demonstrated the large numbers of recruits enlisting into the KRRC and RB from the London area.  To me (and probably others) this very suggestive that the two regiments could recruit who they liked, where they liked - outside of Scotland certainly.

 

As already stated, there is evidence of a spat over recruitment in St Pancras between 16/RB and 19/LR, so there at least it was certainly unregulated.

 

So ... your hypothesis may be correct, but I think the onus is one you to provide some hard evidence for it.  Without such it remains speculation.  Time for you to put in the hard miles in the libraries and archives, I'm afraid!

 

I stress again (AGAIN) I have never come across anything in KRRC sources that suggests (a) KRRC pre-MSA recruitment campaigns were geographically constrained, or (b) that War Office permission was sought before conducting same.

 

This is an area both Andy and I are closely interested in, so our Rifles antennae have very much been on the alert for exactly such material.  Anything you find would be of very great interest to both of us.

 

Mark

[Perth Digger]

The 17th KRRC was advertising in the Catford Journal, 28 May 1915. So too was the Royal Naval Division.

 

Mike

[Guest]

London in the context of the rest of England. The table below shows Area, Population, Population density and the number of battalions each County raised. Note that Some counties such as Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire are shown separately as well as combined. Ditto East and West Suffolk.  Ditto Durham and Newcastle as they had shared recruiting areas.etc. 

 

KRRC, RB and Guards are not shown as they cannot be ascribed to a single county. 

 

London's battalions would be 47 (RF) + 88 (London TF) = 136 at the minimum, but for reasoans already discussed London clearly supported more than this number. 'London' is based on the core Boroughs. Middlesex is shown separately. 

 

Middlesex is interesting. Population shlightly lower than Notts & Derby combined, yet the Middlesex Regt raised had 47 Battalions compared to 33 of the Sherwood Foresters (Notts & Derbt Regt).I think this neatly illustrates that the proximity to 'London' allowed neighbouring counties to benefit from large surpluses in London. 

 

Data is taken from 1911 Census and compared to summary tables in James' "British Regiment 1914-1918"

Edited 31 August , 2017 by Guest

[MBrockway]

[Edit: this post was in reply to now-blanked posts by Pal guest, which inter alia included the following points:

1. KRRC & RB recruitment was probably greater in west London

2. Above probably due to WInchester (Rifle Depot) being closer to west London

3. There were KRRC battalions raised in Wandsworth and in Shepherd's Bush

4. Recruitment into KRRC was linked to earlier Boys' Brigade membership  ]

 

 

Generally from the KRRC Chronicles reported OR recruitment into the KRRC and RB seems greater from the eastern half of London, both sides of the water.

 

The two Special Reserve battalions of the KRRC (and I think the RB, but am away from my books) were at Woolwich pre-War.  One of these had been based at Barnet pre-Haldane.

 

18/KRRC was raised at Gidea Park, but included men from outside of London.

 

There was no KRRC battalion raised at Wandsworth nor Shepherd's Bush.

 

The only definite link I have found between the Boys' Brigade and the KRRC (as opposed to the Chuch Lads' Brigade) is that a Boys' Brigade band used the drill hall of the KRRC's 1st Cadet Battalion in Sun Street for practice and concerts.  Both the KRRC and the RB were active in the boys' club and inner city missions movements, so it is certainly plausible that there may have been links to the BB.

 

Not sure why you see proximity to Winchester as important in West London - I have lived in various places in West London and never felt any link or draw to Winchester despite perceiving Waterloo and Paddington as my transport hubs of choice.  Winchester seemed 'nearer' in terms of my mental connectivity map when I lived in Oxford to be honest.

 

Incidentally I also worked in Leman Street, Aldgate - the work was dull, but enlived by having a peregrine falcon nest on my window sill barely a yard from my desk - frosted glass unfortunately, so could only be observed visually by a trip to the opposite offices, but the noises at feeding times were amazing.

 

Mark

[johnboy]

Clerkenwell now City was in Middlesex at the time and parts of what is now E.London were in Essex.

[Perth Digger]

Sorry, guest, I don't understand what you mean re the 17th KRRC. I presume that, as a Service battalion, it would be 3 years or duration. Is that what you meant?

 

Mike

[Guest]

Here are some fragments of TF returns around the time when the 2nd Lines were being formed.

 

First image is for London Regt

Second image is others but shows column headings.

 

I think this essentially illustrates how the battalions split for Home Service. Where there are two rows of data, the upper line is Home Service and the lower is Imperial Service men (despite being in the Home Service Battalion). I didn't make a record of the dates but I suspect this is very early in the War. Note the London Scottish is shown as two separate units.  Note the Rangers (not yet split) shows 1,000 all ranks had signed for Imperial Service; contrast this with the 9th Bn QVR with ,men Imperial Service in the 1st Bn and  a one third/two thirds split in Home v Imperial Service in the Home Service Bnattalion. I suspect this is a snapshot taken soon after the decision to create Imperial Service Battalions and Home Service Battalions. I think the blanks for 14th Bn London Scottish simply reflects no return , possibly because the battalion was already overseas. Notes its Home Service Bn had 581 All Ranks signed for Imperial Service. 

 

Source is WO 114 National Archives. 

Edited 2 September , 2017 by Guest

[Perth Digger]

I'm going to start a new thread on Recruitment: New Army Units raised in 1915.

 

Mike

[MBrockway]

 

18/KRRC was a Service battalion not a Reserve battalion.  They landed in France on 03 May 1916.

 

They were raised by Herbert Raphael, MP, in June 1915.  Recruiting centres were set up in London, Derby, several places in Yorkshire and the Midlands.  The battalion was accepted by the War Office on 04 Sep 1915.

 

The Artists' Rifles were indeed in Gidea Park, at Hare Hall, but I had thought it was the 3rd/28th (later renumbered to 2nd/28th) rather than 1st/28th.

 

18/KRRC had Bn HQ at Gidea Hall from June 1915 to 10 Oct 1915 with Depot and billets in various other buildings on the estate.

[MBrockway]

 

No idea what you're talking about I'm afraid.  36 hours of head scratching has not made this any clearer either.

 

Anyone else know what he means here?  I'm stumped.

 

Mark

 

[johnboy]

not a clue but I won't spend 36hrs  wondering.

[ss002d6252]

With regards to recruiting the war office issued instructions on specific recruiting areas - can't see the RB and KRRC but this is a good example of the sort of instructions in 1910.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000540%2f19100422%2f261

Craig

[MBrockway]

On 31/08/2017 at 10:43, MBrockway said:

 

Incidentally I also worked in Leman Street, Aldgate - the work was dull, but enlived by having a peregrine falcon nest on my window sill barely a yard from my desk - frosted glass unfortunately, so could only be observed visually by a trip to the opposite offices, but the noises at feeding times were amazing.

 

Mark

 

 

It was you who brought up Leman Street in one of the posts you have now blanked out.  Something to do with a relation of yours who was a tea taster there if I remember correctly.  While others will now be puzzled by my now-orphaned post, it shouldn't take you 36 hours to work out what the connection was.

 

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

With regards to recruiting the war office issued instructions on specific recruiting areas - can't see the RB and KRRC but this is a good example of the sort of instructions in 1910.

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000540%2f19100422%2f261

Craig

 

Great source Craig.

 

However all the battalions mentioned are Special Reserve battalions.  Would the 1910 Special Reserve recruiting arrangements be representative of war time recruitment?

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

On 02/09/2017 at 00:41, MBrockway said:

 

It was you who brought up Leman Street in one of the posts you have now blanked out.  Something to do with a relation of yours who was a tea taster there if I remember correctly.  While others will now be puzzled by my now-orphaned post, it shouldn't take you 36 hours to work out what the connection was.

 

 

 

Odd then that the original Leman Street reference has now disappeared.  Are you suggesting you're NOT the only contributor here who has blanked out their content?

[Guest]

Gents Can we keep this civilised please? Please.I would rather not have to lock the thread. Robust debate is good as long as we retain a degree of decorum. It is possible to agree to disagree and move on. 

 

Deleting posts doesn't particularly help. It disrupts the flow and now anyone wanting to read from the beginning will now be slightly confused. I have responded to posts that have now been deleted and it makes me now far less inclined to respond to future posts. So, can I ask that posts are left as they are. I am going to ask the Mods to clean the thread up. 

 

MG

Edited 2 September , 2017 by Guest

[keithmroberts]

I have been asked to tidy up this topic and another member who deited out the content of most of his posts then asked for all his posts to be deleted. I have to the best of my ability complied with both requests. Inevitably there will be some posts that are left hanging as a result, but there is more than sufficient meat in this thread to make it worth while and I hope that constructive discussion can continue

 

 

Keith Roberts

[Guest]

3 hours ago, QGE said:

Gents Can we keep this civilised please? Please.I would rather not have to lock the thread. Robust debate is good as long as we retain a degree of decorum. It is possible to agree to disagree and move on. 

 

Deleting posts doesn't particularly help. It disrupts the flow and now anyone wanting to read from the beginning will now be slightly confused. I have responded to posts that have now been deleted and it makes me now far less inclined to respond to future posts. So, can I ask that posts are left as they are. I am going to ask the Mods to clean the thread up. 

 

MG

 

     M- If there is any information that you wish re-written to clarify a deleted post of mine, then shout out and it will be politely written up for you. I will go back through your posts and see what can be done.  

[Guest]

On 8/31/2017 at 09:51, MBrockway said:

Martin's excellent analyses have clearly demonstrated the large numbers of recruits enlisting into the KRRC and RB from the London area.  To me (and probably others) this very suggestive that the two regiments could recruit who they liked, where they liked - outside of Scotland certainly.

 

As already stated, there is evidence of a spat over recruitment in St Pancras between 16/RB and 19/LR, so there at least it was certainly unregulated.

 

So ... your hypothesis may be correct, but I think the onus is one you to provide some hard evidence for it.  Without such it remains speculation.  Time for you to put in the hard miles in the libraries and archives, I'm afraid!

 

    I do not doubt that "national" regiments could recruit across London. Do you have any evidence at all that KRRC or RB could recruit anywhere they liked, at any time they liked, and to any number they liked?. Because I have not seen any at all from you whatsoever. Unrestricted recruiting across the Metropolis, I suggest, in wartime was unlikely. But if you have the evidence that KRRC in particular had this right/privilege, then post the actual stuff here. If you have a reference to any specific file or document at Kew, then I will go across and pull the stuff out next week.. Recruiting figures showing men came from London is not it. . I suggest- in the manner of Craig's extract from recruiting instructions, that -on application to a higher authority- KRRC/RB,Guards etc, could apply to have a certain number of recruits from all/part of London directed to them. - in the same way that the Scottish regiments in Craig's extract could do so.

     That the records show that KRRC/RB did recruit men in London is not the same as saying they had an absolute and unfettered right to do so. Hard yards also- where is the evidence for the POLICY or ENTITLEMENT of KRRC recruiting ??

 

ii) If you have a keen grip on KRRC material, then-is there any evidence from August 1914 onwards, that KRRC recruiters actually did the recruiting- Perhaps any memoirs or contemporary accounts of, say, KRRC officers/ senior sergeants being based at full-time army recruiting offices across the Metropolis. I have not found them. I have a number of my local casualties for KRRC and all seem to have gone into KRRC with enlistment place given as Stratford-which was the full-time "normal" recruiting office. This suggests to me that the professional recruiters directed men to KRRC-but if you have any evidence that KRRC officers/NCOs could freelance in the Metropolis-or that they attended at any army recruiting offices (Perhaps in the manner of different stalls at a "Milk Run" job fair at a modern university?) then please post it.

       There is a small way into this - KRRC  attestation forms from 1914+ , that may have survived in the "burnt documents".  These might offer 2 ways to solve-or strongly infer-

1)  At the top right of the forms, is the name of the regiment written in by hand or is it  in type from a rubber stamp? No it's not daft. A rubber stamp saying "103rd Bn KRRC" (nb-fictional) might indicate more pre-planning or the attendance of  KRRC recruiter at the army recruiting office (or, alternatively, it was applied at Winchester).

2)  The requirement that the recruit state who advised him of the terms of military service-the NCO is usually named. Perhaps run a few of these NCOs, if poss., to see if they were from KRRC or a.n.other.  May be a way into whether KRRC NCOs were in and about London.

  

 

[johnboy]

This thread will end tn tears

Edited 2 September , 2017 by johnboy

[Guest]

The attached link Charles Booth's Poverty Map of London 1890 provides a wonderful insight to the Class Demographics of London. Men born near the date of this map formed the bulk of the volunteeers and conscripts during the war. The map can be faded in and out of Charles Booth's Poverty Map of London into a modern map using the slider centre bottom. The index /colour code is bottom left and the 'show notebooks' icon top right of the map provides an astonishing level of detail from 1898. 

 

The legend classifies residents as 

• Lowest Class, vicious, semi criminal
• Very Poor, casual, chronic want
• Poor 18s to 21s a week for a moderate family*
• Mixed, some comfortable others poor
• Fairly confortable, good ordinary earnings
• Middle Class well to do
• Upper Middle and Upper Classes, Wealthy

What is interesting is how the various classes are largely intermixed. An interesting map which sheds some light on London's Class Deompgraphics.  Hats off to the wonderful people at LSE. I thought it might be of interest. MG

 

*incldentally Booth coined the phrase 'Poverty Line at 21s a week income

Edited 26 November , 2017 by Guest