The London Regiment (TF) - Recruiting and Demographics.

[brummell]

With regard to the LRB, not one of the 32 old boys of my school who served in the LRB (a total which does not include the significant number who commissioned from its ranks), a good number of whom were pre-war members, lived near Bunhill Row, or even north of the river.  Every one of them lived within what Mitchinson describes as the 'approximate arc from Bexley, through Bromley, Catford and Thornton Heath to Wimbledon' which defined their recruiting area.  The school was in Camberwell.

 

Mike may be interested to know that the school was an LCC grammar school, permitted to raise an OTC in 1910.  Over 80% of the boys went into white-collar jobs (mostly clerkships in banks, insurance houses, or the Civil Service).  The fee to join the corps was initially 25 shillings - soon reduced to 10 shillings when numbers dwindled just before the war began.

[Guest]

 

    I would expect a cadet force at a grammar school of the LCC- but I am not sure that Rutland Street School was one-hence my query about it.

How many LCC Schools contain the word Rutland? The School is less than a 2 miles from the boundary of  Hackney and Bethnal Green.

 

Rutland St was renamed and is now called Ashfield St. It is three streets south of Royal London Hospital See parallel maps below for 1905 v 1960s

[brummell]

I tend to agree - the pre-war LRB men (about whom we might imagine the regiment was more discriminating) held either held junior posts but at prestigious firms, and/or had fathers in established and obviously well-paid posts - exactly as you say. All the LRB guys, pre-war members or not, worked in the City.

 

The pre-war HAC members seem to have been very wealthy; so wealthy indeed that you have to wonder why they were at a grammar school when Dulwich College was just down the road.  But then, that is how rich people get rich!

[MBrockway]

As you're aware from our past topics on Wilson's School, there was also recruitment into the KRRC and the QWR's. The KRRC link probably explained by a combination of Whitehead becoming CO of 17/KRRC and Kennedy, 1/KRRC, being attached to the First Surrey Rifles as Adjutant and later CO.

Mark

[johnboy]

From Hackney museum

captioned Black and white photograph, 10th Battalion London Regiment Cadet Corps

 

Possibly Rutland street school

[johnboy]

[johnboy]

Could not add text to above post but it seems  that Gurkha was not part of the official titlei

[johnboy]

as an aside, Jack Cohen founder of Tesco atttended Rutland Street school until he was 14yrs old

[johnboy]

As this thread is an offshoot from hackney gurkhas thread it might be best to start a new thread.

[Perth Digger]

Martin

The War Office asked several London borough councils in April 1915 if they would be prepared to raise a new Service unit. These would be designated Pals units as they were recruiting from a defined area (supposedly). Lewisham was asked to raise a brigade of Field Artillery. The council preferred to raise an infantry battalion, which the War Office accepted. 

 

Incidentally, fewer than 40% of the original recruits (when the War Office took the battalion over) lived in Lewisham.

 

Mike

PS: In your original map with pins, where is the 20th London?

[MBrockway]

 

      ... while I have had a go with Mark Brockway on 2 service battalions of KRRC raised by War Office diktat in the Spring of 1915 as well, in Wandsworth and Shepherds Bush. I think it's an interesting jigsaw- hope I can get to see the final picture.

As discussed extensively, your KRRC Wandsworth theory was incorrect and based on an error about where a former KRRC officer's funeral took place and confusion about his role with the KRRC vs King Edward's Horse, all compounded by a British Empire League recruitment rally mainly for a BEL-sponsored DAC using Wandsworth Town Hall.  The two British Empire League KRRC battalions were "not raised by War Office diktat" either.

 

Although the KRRC and RB recruited all across London, there were no KRRC battalions raised specifically in Wandsworth or Shepherd's Bush.

 

We left it that you were going to seek further source documents in the London Library and the British Library to refute my position.

 

My impression when this has cropped up since was you'd not found anything.  Is this incorrect?

 

Mark

[MBrockway]

    I suspect there were protocols. or understandings about ,say,KRRC, Rifle Brigade recruiting in London- it stands to reason that poaching and ad hoc arrangements would lead to chaos.    

 

I believe there is certainly some contemporary evidence of disgruntlement between 19/LR and 16/RB over rights to the St Pancras area, though I've not myself seen the original sources.

 

Mark

[johnboy]

good luck

[stiletto_33853]

1 hour ago, MBrockway said:

 

I believe there is certainly some contemporary evidence of disgruntlement between 19/LR and 16/RB over rights to the St Pancras area, though I've not myself seen the original sources.

 

Mark

 

Yes there was some disgruntlement in the 19th London Regiment re the 16th Rifle Brigade and then the 17th Rifle Brigade composed of the overspill from the 16th. There is a thread somewhere in the archives where Charles and myself talked about this, can't find it presently.

 

Andy

[MBrockway]

Yes - good luck with your London project.

 

I stress AGAIN, I have seen no evidence whatever of any "no poaching" regulations between the nationally recruiting infantry regiments (Guards, KRRC and RB) and the locally recruiting regiments in the metropolitan areas.

 

The KRRC and RB recruited heavily in London (as did the Guards) and the evidence rather points in the opposite direction - i.e. that there were no recruiting agreements such as you postulate.  Certainly the 19/LR-16/RB digruntlement should not have occurred if any such agreements were in place.

 

I look forward to your evidence about a clash between the Mayor of Wandsworth and the British Empire League over KRRC recruitment.  I reiterate there was no KRRC battalion raised specifically in Wandsworth, although there was definitely a recruitment march from central London out to Wandsworth Town Hall, as Johnboy showed in that other topic.  If I remember correctly nor did Martin's excellent analyses show any 'spike' of recruitment from Wandsworth in any KRRC battalion.

 

Likewise I'd be very interested in any evidence that Guards, KRRC and RB recruitment was geographically regulated/constrained.  I've not seen anything like this myself.  Perhaps the most locally focussed KRRC battalion was the Yeoman Rifles (21/KRRC) whose initial establishment was heavily concentrated on the North Riding heartland around the seat of the Earl of Feversham, but even that original establishment included large contingents from Durham, Northumberland and the East Midlands and replenishments after Flers were nationwide (with large numbers from London) and the Yeoman Rifles identity was to all intents and purposes lost.

 

Enlistment into elite national regiments with great cachet is not problematic in 1914 and 1915.  It would be a very interesting project though to delve into what happened after the introduction of conscription - e.g. whether a MSA conscript expressing a wish for one of the national regiments had this to any degree honoured.

 

There is certainly evidence of Training Reserve men arriving at the IBD's destined for county regiments being switched to KRRC and RB - see our many posts on the A/2xxxxx and B/2xxxxx service number ranges - though this usually seems to have been to deal with urgent replenishments after KRRC and RB battalions took heavy losses.

 

Mark

 

[Guest]

On 29/08/2017 at 02:00, Perth Digger said:

Martin

The War Office asked several London borough councils in April 1915 if they would be prepared to raise a new Service unit. These would be designated Pals units as they were recruiting from a defined area (supposedly). Lewisham was asked to raise a brigade of Field Artillery. The council preferred to raise an infantry battalion, which the War Office accepted. 

 

Incidentally, fewer than 40% of the original recruits (when the War Office took the battalion over) lived in Lewisham.

 

Mike

PS: In your original map with pins, where is the 20th London?

 

Interesting. The London TF recruiting v London Recruiting for regulars and new Army would clearly be in competition. I have not studied the raising of the New Armies in London so I dont have an informed view. I would defer to peter Simkin's work on Kitchener's Army

 

Separately:

 

Metropolitan Recruiting. To my mind Recruiting in the Metropolitan areas can be split into four distinct time frames:

 

1. Pre War. The designated Metropolitan Boroughs were separate recruiting areas outside the  traditional 'territorial' recruiting districts of typical 'county' regiments. All infantry regiments could recruit in the metropolitan areas, however this still operated under a degree of regulation. My understanding (inferred from the layout of recruiting data in GARBA) is that regiments in each of the larger 'Commands' such as Scotland, Ireland, Northern, Western etc had access to the nearest Metropolitan Recruiting districts; so the Northumberland Fusiliers and DLI could both recruit in Newcastle Upon type for example, the Warwicks and Worcestershire Regts could recruit in Birmingham and so on. The Southern Regiments could recruit in London and the Western Regiments in Bristol etc...This did not preclude the possibility of a recruit in London (for example) choosing to join the Northumberland Fusiliers, however the Recruiting Sgt had priority lists and would steer recruits to where the largest shortfalls were if possible. Some units would be closed to recruits in order to maximise the chances of those regiments with the greatest needs. The RWF and Birmingham would severely challenge this simple model....

 

At risk of stating the obvious any man enlisting within 12 years prior to the Great War would either still be serving or on the hook as a result of his Reserve commitment (unless discharged). The 1911 Census provides an interesting snapshot of the regular Army just three years before the War. The demographics of typical County regiments were far more diffuse that one might expect. While there is typically a large minority or small majority from the 'home' county, most regiments had men from all over the country; as a general rule the further away from the home county, the fewer, however that are some large exceptions. Some Lowland Scots regiments had more Englishmen than Scotsmen. Ditto the Scots Guards. RWF and Birmingham , although this is often misunderstood and is not a great as one might believe (see other threads). 

Edit: RWF in 1911 was 71% English, 24% Welsh and 5% Other. Within this, 23% were recruited from Birmingham. and less than 5% from London/Middlesex.

 

When we look at the infantry Regiments that could recruit nationally - Grenadier Guards, Coldstream Guards, KRRC and RB there are some revealing patterns in the 1911 Census data. The Grenadier Guards reveal large clusters in London & Middlesex (often the Census did not differentiate between the two - 16% of recruits combined) with Derbyshire, (24th most populous county but providing the second largest number of recruits at 7.4%) and Lancashire (most populous county but only providing the 6th largest number of recruits at 5.2%)  -  they all provide significant numbers relative to other counties. Interestingly Durham (the 10th most populous county) only comes in as the 19th largest provider of Grenadier Guards' recruits. The correlation between population densities and recruiting is not particularly tight. We see similar trends with the Coldstream Guards although the skew is towards different counties; (in order - Warwickshire, London, Yorkshire, Norfolk, Co Durham). This might suggest some for of agreement within the Guards to focus on separate areas of the country. Ireland and Scotland were of course off limits to the Grenadiers and Coldstream each having only a very small numbers of Irishmen and Scotsmen - presumably expatriate celts living and recruited in England.

 

The KRRC pre-war was far more London-centric (21.7%) and reflected national demographics more closely, although it appears to have not recruited men in Scotland. I think this might be because 'non - Scottish' regiments were prevented from tapping into the three designated Scottish metropolitan recruiting areas of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee. I have seen no documents that lay this out, however the hard data in the Census would strongly suggest Scotland was the preserve of Scottish regiments and unless a Scotsman specifically requested to join the KRRC (for example) or an expatriate Scot living in London chose the KRRC (for example) Scotsmen were highly unlikely to join this 'nationally' based Regiment.

 

What the Census data does not capture is men who transferred between regiments. In summary the pre-war recruiting was not a particularly tight correlation with the designated recruiting district and may simply reflect that many rural County regiments had no choice but to tap into the Metropolitan recruiting areas. One in three men in the DCLI in 1911 were Londoners for example; 

 

2. War Time recruiting: 1914

The surge in volunteers allowed most paired battalions of the Regular infantry to raise two more battalions: K1 and K2. Recruiting standards were lax and the initial flood of recruits correlated highly with the traditional recruiting 'counties'. A rural county had little need to tap the metropolitan areas, although there are exceptions in Ireland (political reasons) and East Anglia (harvest).

 

3. War Time recruiting 1915.

Between the initial flood of recruits and their disembarkation, my sense is that there was massive turnover. The evidence is in the medal rolls and the Army Numbers contained therein. the gaps in the number sequences seem to suggest there was plenty of weeding out of men recruited in 1914 under rather dubious standards of health and fitness. By the time this was getting underway, the large surpluses of volunteers had been re-allocated to other newly raised battalions or used to double the size of Reserve battalions to 2,000 each. This meant that when Battalions in the Countyshire Regiment needed to replace men weeded out, they were more dependent of the large urban pools of excesses volunteers. I suspect that demographic shape of K1 and K2 battalions changed considerably between Aug 1914 and deploying in July 1915. The evidence is in the early casualty data, of which there are considerable numbers. This needs more research but will (I think) reveal large minority groups of Londoners in many 'County' battalions.

 

4. Conscription.1916-1918. 

The correlation between recruiting areas and County regiments begins to break down as the asymmetry between population clusters and traditional recruiting areas is exposed. Rural English regiments, the Scots, Welsh and Irish increasingly had to depend on English conscripts from high population density areas of London, the Midlands and the Industrial North. 

 

In summary I would argue that the demographic shape of units changed in four distinct phases. Despite this general factor, some units managed to retain a high degree of local character - particularly some Highland regiments, but usually at the cost of amalgamations or disbandments which allowed the remaining men be consolidated into ever fewer battalions. The Irish being the most extreme example. 

 

London. As far as the London TF is concerned, the CWGC and SDGW data provides some hints that casualties were extremely skewed. this might suggest that within the London TF some units were prioritised and kept at full strength (and therefore in the line more often than others). This is one area that really does need some research as the data is extremely skewed. 

 

 

 

 

[Perth Digger]

Martin

With further reference to the 11th (Lewisham) RWK, the battalion history says that the Council rejected raising an artillery unit because the 4th Howitzer Brigade already had its HQ in Lewisham. Yet by deciding to raise a Service infantry battalion it seemed to ignore the presence within its boundaries of the HQ of the 20th London TF. I think that municipal pride was at work here. The 20th London was the 20th (Blackheath and Woolwich) London Regiment, with no reference to Lewisham. The prospect of having a battalion with Lewisham in its title was appealing. The 20th was still very active in recruiting when the 11th began to recruit in May 1915, so there would have been competition, especially as the former had looked to Lewisham and Deptford (a separate borough then) for recruits pre-war. It seems strange to me that both units were affiliated to the RWK if they were to be in competition. From the way that the Queen's Own Gazette first mentioned the 11th ("it is understood that" etc) and the fact that Lewisham negotiated directly with the War Office, I would guess that the RWK Regiment in Maidstone had little say in the decision to affiliate the 11th with it (and possibly thereby causing TF resentment).

 

Mike

 

 

[Perth Digger]

Martin

Re turnover. For what it's worth, I have, with Longboat's invaluable help, details on 1159 men who enlisted with the 11th RWK between May and December 1915 (the "Originals"). 25% of them did not go to France with the battalion in May 1916 (for a wide variety of reasons, of course).

 

Mike

 

PS: The turnover of officers could be large too. 

Edited 30 August , 2017 by Perth Digger
PS added

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Perth Digger said:

Martin

With further reference to the 11th (Lewisham) RWK, the battalion history says that the Council rejected raising an artillery unit because the 4th Howitzer Brigade already had its HQ in Lewisham. Yet by deciding to raise a Service infantry battalion it seemed to ignore the presence within its boundaries of the HQ of the 20th London TF. I think that municipal pride was at work here. The 20th London was the 20th (Blackheath and Woolwich) London Regiment, with no reference to Lewisham. The prospect of having a battalion with Lewisham in its title was appealing. The 20th was still very active in recruiting when the 11th began to recruit in May 1915, so there would have been competition, especially as the former had looked to Lewisham and Deptford (a separate borough then) for recruits pre-war. It seems strange to me that both units were affiliated to the RWK if they were to be in competition. From the way that the Queen's Own Gazette first mentioned the 11th ("it is understood that" etc) and the fact that Lewisham negotiated directly with the War Office, I would guess that the RWK Regiment in Maidstone had little say in the decision to affiliate the 11th with it (and possibly thereby causing TF resentment).

 

Mike

 

 

 

Mike Thanks... it certainly raises a lot of questions about how recruits in Lewisham were streamlined. I guess that the terms of Service were (initially) different and the TF battalions offering Home Service as an option were technically different from "Three years or the duration" terms of engagement in the New Armies. Do you have any inkling as to how fast the 11th bn was raised?

 

My interest/knowledge of Pals battalions/ locally raised units is limited to Simkin's impressive book. It is not clear whether local bodies required permission or whther they simply raised the units and then offered them to the WO. I assume the former as private armies were against the law (with some rare exceptions in Scotland). As you indicate this might have more to do with Lewisham wanting to be seen to be raising an infantry battalion with an associated name.

 

The 20th Bn London Regt (TF) was on the Google Earth image but just on the wrong side of the snip. I tried to relocate it but rather frustratingly Google Earth had completely disappeared from my files and I am trying (and failing) to load Google Earth Pro (it looks as if Google Earth is no longer). If I succeed I will post the image with 10th Bn included.

 

M

[petwes]

I have been following this thread with interest and have been in two minds whether to chip in.  However the mention of Lewisham swung it for me.  Apologies in advance if the information is of no consequence or irrelevant.

My maternal GF joined 3/15 Battalion County of London Regiment on 14th June 1915 at their premises in the Strand (Somerset House)? By December that year he had been promoted to Sergeant and had started preparing his application for a commission in the 3/17th Battalion.  He submitted the application on 4th Feb 1916, signing his IGS Obligation the same day.  Up to 1915 he was probably living with his parents in Lewisham High Street but gave his address as Shoreham by Sea on his attestation form which is also the address of his Mother named as his NOK. I don't think his school in New Cross had any bearing on his choice of Battalion as he had been out of education for nearly 14 years.  

However he worked for Home & Colonial stores as a tea taster and blender, their offices were in Paul Street, Finsbury. Like many Londoners he was a daily commuter into the city so it would appear to me that his choice of the 15th perhaps had more to do with his work location rather than his residence?

 

Peter

 

[johnboy]

- I too have casualties for outer London who volunteered to serve in "inner" London regiments-

  did men have a choice of regiment?  or doyou mean that they saw posters and ads saying where a regiment as recruiting.

[Perth Digger]

Martin

The 11th took a long time to reach full strength, probably not until early 1916, although the War Office accepted it in November.

I have date enlistment details for 1151 (many who didn't go to France with the battalion). The pattern follows national trends.

1915

May (2 weeks): 142

June: 182

July: 166

August: 150

September: 70

October: 150

November: 270

December: 21

 

Mike

[Perth Digger]

This is a table of places of attestation for the Originals of the 11th RWK in 1915. There is no great correlation between place of attesting and address in 1915. Eg, more came from Poplar, Millwall and further east than the East of Thames numbers suggest. North of Thames includes central London.

Mike

 

 

 

Place	May	June	July	Aug	Sept	Oct	Nov	Dec
Lewisham	54	63	78	75	37	48	105	13
Deptford	48	34	25	20	5	26	46	2
Camberwell	16	15	12	8	1	3	24	0
Bermondsey	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
Rotherhithe	4	6	9	4	0	1	11	0
Southwark	0	24	6	3	0	3	3	0
Lambeth	2	4	1	0	0	0	0	0
Greenwich	0	0	0	0	0	1	12	2
Penge	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0
Bromley	0	1	2	5	3	6	13	0
Woolwich	0	2	4	13	1	10	10	0
Dartford	0	0	0	0	1	7	2	0
Maidstone	0	2	1	0	1	5	1	0
Other Kent	0	0	1	1	0	9	4	0
North of Thames	0	2	4	3	2	11	2	1
East of Thames	1	0	0	0	1	3	2	0
Other	0	4	1	2	5	0	9	1
Unknown	15	24	19	14	13	17	26	2

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

This is a table of places of attestation for the Originals of the 11th RWK in 1915. There is no great correlation between place of attesting and address in 1915. Eg, more came from Poplar, Millwall and further east than the East of Thames numbers suggest. North of Thames includes central London.

Mike

 

 

 

Place	May	June	July	Aug	Sept	Oct	Nov	Dec
Lewisham	54	63	78	75	37	48	105	13
Deptford	48	34	25	20	5	26	46	2
Camberwell	16	15	12	8	1	3	24	0
Bermondsey	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
Rotherhithe	4	6	9	4	0	1	11	0
Southwark	0	24	6	3	0	3	3	0
Lambeth	2	4	1	0	0	0	0	0
Greenwich	0	0	0	0	0	1	12	2
Penge	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0
Bromley	0	1	2	5	3	6	13	0
Woolwich	0	2	4	13	1	10	10	0
Dartford	0	0	0	0	1	7	2	0
Maidstone	0	2	1	0	1	5	1	0
Other Kent	0	0	1	1	0	9	4	0
North of Thames	0	2	4	3	2	11	2	1
East of Thames	1	0	0	0	1	3	2	0
Other	0	4	1	2	5	0	9	1
Unknown	15	24	19	14	13	17	26	2

 

 

Mike. Thank you for this detail. Fascinating. I am interested how you came about the attestation details of over 1,000 men.... are these a sample of the existing records or is there a separate single document that recorded the originals? I assume a decent percentage of the Pension and Service records were destroyed in the Arnside Rd bombing of WWI so I am curious to understand if this data is an intact battalion or a large sample of battalion size? 

 

I would be interested in understanding the highest and lowest Army Numbers of this group to get a feel for the number of gaps between these two extremes. One might reasonably assume if these represent men who served overseas that there are an equal number who served in the second line on the same numbering system...

 

41% appear to be from Lewisham and another 18% from neighbouring Deptford suggests that there was a reasonably high concentration from a concentrated area. This seems consistent with other data across a wide variety of units: the large minority or small majority from 'home' supplemented with others who where from a further afield

 

Martin.

[Guest]

London Recruiting.

 

My understanding is that each TF Battalion had its own recruiting Office, usually in its HQ and possibly in ad hoc recruiting stands at rallies, speeches etc. Separate to this were the Army recruiting Offices  - the most well known one being in Scotland Yard in Whitehall. Separate again were locally raised units which had recruiting stations set up in Town Halls or municipal buildings on a semi-permanent basis.

 

A man wishing to join a TF battalion would have to go to that TF battalion's recruiting office. If they were full, he might try another Battalion's recruiting office meaning he would have to walk across London. A man wishing to join the HAC had to go to the HAC's recruiting Office. By contrast a man simply wishing to join Kitchener's Army went to Scotland Yard (and possibly other offices dotted around the capital?) and joined the masses. What is not clear to me is what happened on the inside of Scotland Yard's recruiting office. I assume this office recruited for all arms and the usual recruiting staff based in London each set up a stall and men (initially) had a choice. So the KRRC, RB, Guards etc might well have had a presence. What is not clear is to whether other line Infantry (the shires) had any presence at Scotland Yard.

 

Similarly a man wishing to join a locally raised 'Pals' Battalion would have to go to that Battalion's recruiting Office, which might help explain the high concentration of men from the area and the adjacent boroughs. If a locally raised unit was 'full' a volunteer might have to slog it to the next nearest unit's recruiting office. The "Wandsworth & Battersea Battalions in the Great War" by Paul McCue provides a detailed insight into how a two locally raised battalions were formed; the 13th (Servce) Bn (Wandsworth) The East Surrey Regt and the 10th (Service) Bn (Battersea) The Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regt. 

 

My understanding is that the TF, Regular Army (including the New Armies K1 and K2) and the Locally Raised unis all had distinctly separate recruiting Offices...at least until the MSA in early 1916. We know for sure that the War Office temporarily changed the recruiting criteria (height for example) to attempt to finesse the flow of recruits, however the Aug-Sep 1814 surge saw many thousands of men enlisted who were subsequently medically downgraded

 

Lastly, I would be interested to better understand how the Royal Fusiliers (City of London) Regt fitted in to this and whether as the only Regular London regiment it had first choice of recruits. 

 

Did the Grenadier Guards and Coldstream Guards for example have first choice of the tallest men or were the tall recruits simply encouraged to consider the Guards?

 

Lots of questions.

 

Martin

 

Edited 31 August , 2017 by Guest