R & J Beck Ltd periscope

[pioneecorps]

Anyone know if the R & J Beck Ltd periscopes were ever used in WW1, if so, were there any photos of them being used.

 

Gerwyn

[MikB]

It's interesting that if you Google images for 'ww1 periscope', all the pics of soldiers using them seem to show larger instruments (some obviously improvised), presumably with a wider field of view and better light grasp. There are also lots of recent pics of Beck periscopes in more-or-less pristine condition.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the soldiers found them poor, and left 'em in stores?

[Michael Haselgrove]

Gerwyn,

An interesting question;  I'm afraid I can't find a photo of one in use although, to be fair, I haven't spent much time looking and there don't seem to be that many photos of periscopes in use in any event.  Picking up on MikB's point, the example of a No. 25 periscope in my collection, despite being dated 1916 and broad arrow marked, is in pristine condition confirming his comments. 

The only help I can offer is the entry for the IWM collection here:

 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30025059    

which confirms use of the periscope?

Regards,

Michael.

[T8HANTS]

Although the donor said it was used by his Father, the fact that it is complete, and unsullied makes me wonder if it was one of those items that seem  a good idea to purchase, but never got used.

Newly qualified ex apprentices in any number of hand tool trades will the invaluable tool that never got used lurking in their tool boxes.

I'm told kitchen cupboards are a similar area.

[pioneecorps]

2 hours ago, MikB said:

It's interesting that if you Google images for 'ww1 periscope', all the pics of soldiers using them seem to show larger instruments (some obviously improvised), presumably with a wider field of view and better light grasp. There are also lots of recent pics of Beck periscopes in more-or-less pristine condition.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the soldiers found them poor, and left 'em in stores?

Hi MikB, Thank you for getting back to me, I'm with you on this, the one I have dated 1918, so if it was used in WW1, then it was for a short time.

Gerwyn

21 minutes ago, Michael Haselgrove said:

Gerwyn,

An interesting question;  I'm afraid I can't find a photo of one in use although, to be fair, I haven't spent much time looking and there don't seem to be that many photos of periscopes in use in any event.  Picking up on MikB's point, the example of a No. 25 periscope in my collection, despite being dated 1916 and broad arrow marked, is in pristine condition confirming his comments. 

The only help I can offer is the entry for the IWM collection here:

 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30025059    

which confirms use of the periscope?

Regards,

Michael.

Hi Michael, Thank you for your info, I also did a search in google and only came up with ones not being used in WW1, like I mentioned to MikB, mines dated 1918, but its nice to know looking at your link, they were used in WW1, I'm using it in my WW1 exhibition with the other two I have, that do have photos of being used in WW1, numbered 1, 2, 3, with photos numbered as a reference, to show how they were used, I do have a photo of a reenactor kneeling using one on a cover of a book, which I will use. 

Kind regards

Gerwyn

[pioneecorps]

14 minutes ago, T8HANTS said:

Although the donor said it was used by his Father, the fact that it is complete, and unsullied makes me wonder if it was one of those items that seem  a good idea to purchase, but never got used.

Newly qualified ex apprentices in any number of hand tool trades will the invaluable tool that never got used lurking in their tool boxes.

I'm told kitchen cupboards are a similar area.

Hi T8HANTS, you could be right in what your saying, there were items made and not issued, or issued and not used, but we will have to decide on whether we believe or not believe.

 

Quote: 

History note

Used by donor's father during his service with the West Kent Yeomanry in the First World War.

 

Gerwyn

[BGS]

I can't answer your question about a photo of one in use, but I recently handled a Mark IX tank periscope manufactured 1918 by R & J Beck, serial number ?15543. 

It was brought to a CWGC Lest We Forget event at Bradford City Hall, part of an enormous collection of photos, documents and objects (including a tank mask) which had belonged to a Tank Corps Private 308583, William Edward Whitfield. He served with 5th Company then 1st Company Tank Stores from June 1918 to early 1920. 

I will shortly be uploading the whole collection to the Oxford digital library together with Bill Whitfield's story. His grand-daughters, in whose possession the collection now is, remember playing with it at their grand-parents' house and watching passers-by.

[Sidearm]

R. & J. Beck periscopes were widely used in tanks.  See David Fletcher's “Great War Tank Mark IV” Haynes Manual p. 86. “Great War Tank Mark IV” Haynes Manual p. 86.

 

Beck's also made sights for tank 6 pdr guns.

 

Gwyn 

[Sidearm]

I should have said, I would be very interested in viewing the collection once it is uploaded to the ODL.  Would you be so kind as to post the link once the time comes, please?

 

Gwyn

[MikB]

13 hours ago, Sidearm said:

R. & J. Beck periscopes were widely used in tanks.  See David Fletcher's “Great War Tank Mark IV” Haynes Manual p. 86. “Great War Tank Mark IV” Haynes Manual p. 86.

 

Beck's also made sights for tank 6 pdr guns.

 

Gwyn 

Beck's also made the general service telescopes in the Tel.Sig. series, especially Mk.IV. Whilst there are plenty of photos of these telescopes in use, set up on stands or simply displayed in group pictures as part of a unit's equipment, I don't recall seeing many of the Beck periscope in similar shots.

 

These telescopes today are rarely in pristine condition, and even the usable ones generally show scratches, scuffs, dents, moisture damage and all the other signs of hard use in a hostile environment. Not so most of the periscopes.

 

 

Edited 19 March , 2019 by MikB

[BGS]

On 18/03/2019 at 19:38, Sidearm said:

I should have said, I would be very interested in viewing the collection once it is uploaded to the ODL.  Would you be so kind as to post the link once the time comes, please?

 

Gwyn

My apologies that I have not replied before - I used to receive email prompts of replies to GWF posts and did not realize you had responded. This is the link:

http://lwf.it.ox.ac.uk/s/lest-we-forget/item/3210

Nick.

[Sidearm]

Thank you very much. 

The text mentions two photos of tanks. Have these been scanned? I couldn't see them in the collection. 

Gwyn

[BGS]

Gwyn, I copied 3 tank photos, and one of a group which presumably included Whitfield at the Tank depot at Erin.

He served with No.5 Tank Stores, but on 10th October was admitted to 48th Casualty Clearing Station at Brie suffering from ‘Myalgia’, then to 6th General Hospital at Rouen, 74th General Hospital at Trouville (19th October) and on 24th was transferred to 13th Convalescent Depot. On 5th December to T[ank[ S[tores] R[eplacement?] Depot’, but on 12th December he was admitted to 2nd Canadian General Hospital on the coast at Le Tréport where he spent Christmas. He was well enough to be allowed home leave in February 1919, travelling via Victoria Station. On 17th February, he sent a telegram to request an extension of his leave as ‘expect brother home next week.’ He returned to Le Tréport by 28th February. 

He was discharged from hospital a little over 2 weeks later and was posted on 18th March 1919 to ‘Driving Camp’ (‘Sautricourt’ in the account book) and then (27th March) ‘Driving & Maintenance School’. He moved again to Merlimont (on the coast south of Etaples) on 18th May where he joined No.1 Tank Stores Company and would remain with them until he went on leave again at the end of August. While there Bill incurred his first punishment on 24th June for being absent from his guard duty, an offence for which he was deprived of 14 days’ pay. He duly noted in his account book for 1/7/19 ‘14 day’s pay’. As no evidence is recorded in the Service Record for this lapse it cannot be said whether or no he had a valid reason. At the end of August 1919 Bill went on leave to the U.K. again, and on 11th September requested another extension. This was refused but he failed to return to his unit, now at Erin, until 16th September 4 days overdue. The reckoning was 7 days’ Field Punishment No.2 and he was deprived of 4 day’s pay (recorded in his account book for 17th September). Bill was examined at Erin on 20th December 1919 and did not claim any disability arising from his service. His Protection Certificate was issued at the Ripon Dispersal Centre on Christmas Day 1919 and 3 stamps at the foot of the certificate relate to his cashing of his payment orders at Thackley Post Office - he was home. 

Nick

 

[Sidearm]

Thanks again. Great to get a new photo of the Salvage Machine, such a rare vehicle and there's very few photos of it.

Gwyn