2nd Lt Despard Tank Corp

[ARMAGH]

2nd Lt DESPARD, ERNEST RICHARD                                                            Died 26/09/1917 Age: 30 Tank Corps "E" Bn. DOZINGHEM MILITARY CEMETERY A Son of Wm. William Despard,  Donore, Mountrath, Queen's Co.                                    Entry to France 26/06/1917. Enlistment 26 June1916 in Dublin Officers Training Corps Dublin University OTC Date of leaving 1 July 1916.

Looking for some details on Lt Despard Can any one help?

[IPT]

Enlisted as 27311 RDF in June 1916, aged 29. Profession: Gentleman. Dublin University OTC. Took an active part in the Sinn Fein rebellion.

 

Born 5/7/1888 Donore, Mountrath. Mother Elizabeth. Died of wounds 26/9/1916 'E' Bn Tank Corps.

 

Commission - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29832/supplement/11377/data.pdf

 

Defence of Trinity College - http://www.irishmedals.ie/Trinity-College.php

 

Previous thread - 

 

 

 

[dgibson150]

Service records appear to have survived. 

 

Reference

 

Must have a look.

David

 

[ARMAGH]

Thanks IPF and dgibson 150 Very interesting, was hoping maybe a photo,  now looking some details on his Tank Corp  ?

Regards

Joe

[dgibson150]

Not much of help in the service records.

 

According to Irish Casualties in WW1 he died of wounds on 26/9/17, wounds incurred on the same day. He was E Battalion Tank Corps, who were apparently not in action on that day. Unfortunately no more info than that which could be gleaned from IPT's post.

 

David

 

Note, E Bn were in action - see later post

Edited 7 August , 2017 by dgibson150
Error

[dgibson150]

Officer's record of service is available at the National Archives WO 339/64706. It is not digitised so someone has to visit inperson.

 

David

[ARMAGH]

Many Thanks David

I am sure there must be some one on  this forum with details of the Tank Corp

Regards

Joe

 

[dgibson150]

Sorry Joe

 

Made a mistake in post #5. E Battalion was in action on 26/9/17 and 2/Lt Despard was in command of crew E38 in a tank named Eileen. See

 

David

[ARMAGH]

Thanks David that gives me a bit more for my presentation on 2nd Lt Despard

Regards

Joe

[johntaylor]

Hi, there are descriptions of his death in Wilfred Bion's two books, The Long Week-end and War Memoirs.  As I recall the accounts are conflicting, but I can't provide further details at the moment due to computer problems.

 

John

[Tiny Tim]

My great uncle, Gunner Leslie Halkes Wray 200988 of 6 Section 14 Company E battalion Tank Corps kept a diary of his time on the Western Front.  He was killed in action 20 November 1917.

 

Copy of this diary is held at Bovington Tank Museum

 

In the diary Lt Despard is listed as Commander of Tank No. 14E, with the following soldiers listed as crew members:

 

Corporal Evans,  Burton, Naile, Frazer, Bullimore, Wray, Holden.  

 

As my great uncle indicates that he was also a crew member of tanks  No. 27E with 2/ Lt Haining, No. 621 with Sergeant Stacy, Supply Tank with 2/ Lt Haining, No. 2821 "Ella" with 2/ Lt William Stobo Haining, I suspect that crews were changed quite often.  

 

On 26th September 1917 my great uncle records:

 

'Our objective was Otto Farm, but our two buses were caught in the German barrage and had direct hits and killed Sergeant (forename:  Frederick) Chymist (MSM), Glassbrook (forename:  John) and L/C Beck.  Collier (forename:  Bob) was ditched, as was Colombe (forename:  Philibutt) in "No Man's Land" but both were practically untouched, although Collier was inoculated against tetanus.  All buses except 2 back.  5 Section took Zonnebeke and Infantry captured all objectives.  Zero was 5.40am'

 

At the time my uncle Leslie Wray was based at Reigesburg Chateau near Poperinge/ Ypres.

 

I can't be sure but Lt Despard also died on 26 September 1917, so Chymist, Glassbrook and Beck could well be his crew members, or he was commander of the other bus (tank) mentioned that were caught in the German barrage...

 

Phil Colombe was the son of a bank clerk from St Pauls, Deptford.  His father Edonard was a Frenchman from Paris.

 

Gunner Leslie Wray 200988 was a farmer's son from Nocton in Lincolnshire

 

Gunner John Glassbrook 78455 was the son of Mrs Elizabeth Glassbrook of 82 Cecil Road, Winbledon, London

 

Sergeant Fred Chymist 95045 was born in Bromley, London in 1892

 

2/Lt William Stobo Haining was the son of the railway stationmaster from Prestwick in Scotland

[Tiny Tim]

There are some significant details about 2/ Lt Despard in Wilfred R Bion's 'War Memoirs 1917-1919'. ISBN:  978-1-78220-358-2 (Karnac Books)

 

2/Lt Bion was in 8 Section of 14 Company, E Battalion, Tanks Corps, as was Despard along with 2/Lt Broome and 2/Lt Owen.  Section Commander was Captain Bagshaw 

 

Bion's memoirs say a good deal about the good character of Despard, and the situation surrounding Despard's death from a shell, and of the subsequent salvage of Despard's tank

[Chris_B]

Tiny Tim,

Gunner John 'Jack' Glassbrook 78455  died in "Egbert" (E26  2348) which was commanded by 2/lt Arthur Staniforth (wounded), only other identified crew member of E26 is Cpl. Gilbert Mclean.  Source WO95/111 Appendix Battlesheet pp 5-6.

 

The second bus your great uncle refers too, I assume is "ELIZA" commanded by 2/Lt. Hopkins, hit apporx 1 hr before "EGBERT".  

 

P.M.V. Colombe was Bion's right gunner -  full name Philibert Marie Victor Colombe, was a Bank of England Clerk before the war and after when the BoE staff were evacuated from London during the BLitz.  His service papers have survived.

 

ARMAGH, 

 

From Wo95/911 :

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2017 by Chris_B

[Chris_B]

Tiny Tim,

 

What is the chornology of your great uncle's diary?  Was he in Despards's tank before xfer to Haining's.  i.e  xfer after EILEEN was ditched?

[helpjpl]

On 6 August 2017 at 22:32, ARMAGH said:

Thanks IPF and dgibson 150 Very interesting, was hoping maybe a photo,  now looking some details on his Tank Corp  ?

Regards

Joe

 

Photo of Ernest Richard Despard:

http://ourheroes.southdublinlibraries.ie/node/17294

 

JP

[Tiny Tim]

My great uncle's diary just list the crews he was in, which I guess he has written in chronological order.

 

14E Lieut Despard

Corporal Evans, Burton, Naile, Frazer, Bullimore, Wray, Holden

 

27E Lieut Haining

Corporal Goodwin, Wray, Edgar, Elliot, Glendinning, Lance Corporal Cameron, Marr

 

621 Sergeant Stacy

Wray, and 3 more

 

Supply Tank

2/ Lieut Haining

Wray, Goodwin, Marr, Edgar, Glendinning

 

2821'Ella'

Same crew members as Supply Tank

 

The only date I can find which might help is 19 July 1917 - when great uncle first calls Tank K2821 'our tank'

 

Other than that I am not certain

 

 

 

[Chris_B]

1 hour ago, Tiny Tim said:

My great uncle's diary just list the crews he was in, which I guess he has written in chronological order.

 

14E Lieut Despard

Corporal Evans, Burton, Naile, Frazer, Bullimore, Wray, Holden

 

27E Lieut Haining

Corporal Goodwin, Wray, Edgar, Elliot, Glendinning, Lance Corporal Cameron, Marr

 

621 Sergeant Stacy

Wray, and 3 more

 

Supply Tank

2/ Lieut Haining

Wray, Goodwin, Marr, Edgar, Glendinning

 

2821'Ella'

Same crew members as Supply Tank

 

The only date I can find which might help is 19 July 1917 - when great uncle first calls Tank K2821 'our tank'

 

Other than that I am not certain

 

 

 

Thanks for the additional details.  19 July 1917 date  in WD:

 

 

[dgibson150]

Both Haining and Wray were killed in action on the first day of Cambrai and are both buried in Ribecourt Road Cemetery, Trescault (CWGC).

 

According to the google landships site 2/Lt Haining was commanding Tank "Ella" with crew E27 on 20/11/17 . This Tank suffered a direct hit on the starting line and was knocked out with both the OIC and the 1st Driver killed here. I am not sure of the source of the landships information (?? reference to W44, page 90) and have no primary source documents for E Battalion but this suggests perhaps that Wray was the 1st Driver, despite being ascribed the rank Gunner. It follows then that Wray was first in Despard's crew and then, later in Haining's crew. 

 

David

[Chris_B]

1 hour ago, dgibson150 said:

Both Haining and Wray were killed in action on the first day of Cambrai and are both buried in Ribecourt Road Cemetery, Trescault (CWGC).

 

According to the google landships site 2/Lt Haining was commanding Tank "Ella" with crew E27 on 20/11/17 . This Tank suffered a direct hit on the starting line and was knocked out with both the OIC and the 1st Driver killed here. I am not sure of the source of the landships information (?? reference to W44, page 90) and have no primary source documents for E Battalion but this suggests perhaps that Wray was the 1st Driver, despite being ascribed the rank Gunner. It follows then that Wray was first in Despard's crew and then, later in Haining's crew. 

 

David

My emphasis.  FYI,  all HBMGC private soldiers were called Gunner whatever their trade. Once the Tank Corps was founded, the rank changed to private.  

[dgibson150]

Thanks Chris for the explanation of  "Gunner" as not being indicative of trade for the HBMCG.

 

I had always wondered why my grandfather was both Gunner and Private. He joined the Tank Corps from the Royal Engineers in January 1918 and was known by the family as Gunner George Gibson. Many years ago he was recognised as Gunner George Gibson on the CWGC website. The CWGC is now showing Private. I have just checked through the Tank Corps Medal Rolls and MIC and he is described there as Private. From his diary he probably was actually a gunner, having attended Hotchkiss and 6 Pounder courses in France!

 

David

[Chris_B]

David,

 

I should say it was Stephen  Pope who put me straight on that one a while ago.  I'm unsure if the CWGC records are absolutely consistent on this.  There's also been discussion in the past on the interchangeability of roles among tank crew members, e.g trained to use hotchkiss & 6 pdr but what else might he have been expected to do? What happens when crew members are incapacitated by carbon monoxide fumes or  wounded? 

[delta]

All tank crewmen would have been expected to be able to operate machine guns with a lesser number being trained on 6 pounders as required. It was clear, by the Battle of Arras that drivers were selected after initial training and thereafter egular refresher training was required. This certainly happened prior to the Battle of Cambrai as revealed in battalion war diaries.   

 

Drivers were paid more than gunners; their skill level being classified.  It does not appear  that drivers were always JNCOs but there seems to seems to be promotions after most battles when experienced and surviving crewmen were selected for advancemental either in acting or substantive rank.

 

I am sure that, when tanks were in action, crewmen assumed roles for which they may not have been fully trained but reallocation of posts would have taken place as quickly as possible, from amongst reserve crewmen in the same section.

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, delta said:

All tank crewmen would have been expected to be able to operate machine guns with a lesser number being trained on 6 pounders as required. It was clear, by the Battle of Arras that drivers were selected after initial training and thereafter egular refresher training was required. This certainly happened prior to the Battle of Cambrai as revealed in battalion war diaries.   

 

Drivers were paid more than gunners; their skill level being classified.  It does not appear  that drivers were always JNCOs but there seems to seems to be promotions after most battles when experienced and surviving crewmen were selected for advancemental either in acting or substantive rank.

 

I am sure that, when tanks were in action, crewmen assumed roles for which they may not have been fully trained but reallocation of posts would have taken place as quickly as possible, from amongst reserve crewmen in the same section.

In his memoire (held in Tank Museum archive) Cpl William Taylor Dawson, who was driving Lt Walkers C46 at Cambrai, comments how he and Lt Walker each took over a 6 pounder at Pam Pam Farm / Le Quenset in order to have "a crack at the Boche". Given the memoire was written some time after the event there may of course have been an element of "sandbag" involved - but indicative that crews (particularly the experienced ones) were crossed trained.

Best, Paul

[delta]

D'accord.