Citation for Military Cross won by an American.

[john white]

Dear Members

                 I am trying to find the citation for William  Bruce MacBean. an American doctor, who was attached to the 1/8th London regiment,the post office rifles, in 1918. He has a British Medal Index Card but it only shows an address in Yonkers,New York State. Sadly he died in Yonkers in 1927. I have looked in the London Gazette but could find no trace. Can anyone help please?

                     Regards

                           John White

[archangel9]

Can't find anything in the Gazette either. He has two MIC's that I can find but cannot see any mention of a MC on either. Are you sure he won the MC?

 

John

[rflory]

As far as I am aware British decorations to foreigners were not published in the London Gazette.  British decorations to officers and men of most foreign countries were published in War Office lists very similar in format to the London Gazette award announcements - I have copies of these for many foreign countries, Belgium, France, Japan, Russia, etc. but not for the United States.

[MaureenE]

There is a Veterans cemetery record card  here

http://collections.westchestergov.com/cdm/ref/collection/vetcards/id/4786

 

Refers to a War Record No. 16620-32.

Note: format may be TIFF, so if you can't read it, you need to download a TIFF reader.

 

I tried the Search  of the  Journal of American Medical Association but didn't find anything. I'm not familiar with this Journal however.

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama

 

Perhaps there may be a source  in this link, as he was  attached to the British Army, rather than "in" the British Army.

http://www.history.army.mil/reference/records.htm

 

Cheers
Maureen

Edited 6 August , 2017 by Maureene

[Guest]

   There is an excellent paper on American doctors with the British army available for download  on Tinternet:

 

history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwi/AmericanArmyMCOfficersBEF.pdf

 

      Seems that some c 1200 American medics served with the Brits.-   the article records that 173 MCs were won by American doctors- Alas, the author does not give his source for this figure-but as the article is largely from printed primary and secondary literature, there must be a list/calculation somehwere in printed form for it

 

 

[MaureenE]

Perhaps there might be something in The National Archives record 

WO 388/6 British decorations awarded to the following Allied armies: Belgium, China, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, France, Greece, Italy, Japan, Montenegro, Nepal, Portugal, Roumania, Russia, Serbia, Siam, USA

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10984821

This record is available as a free download

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Guest]

   Thanks for that Maureene- 5 files to download for nowt-  Something for FREE from National Archives-It's too early on a Monday morning for such shocks. Phew!!

[john white]

Dear Members

                Thank you for your helpful contributions. All were useful. I downloaded WO 388/6 relating to British decorations to Americans and on list 40, 18th July 1919 was the  notification of the award of a Military Cross to William Bruce MacBean M.O.R.C. attached to the 1/8 London Regiment.It would appear that there was no citation as was explained by rflory but  there seems to be battalion diaries at W0 95 2714/ 3-5 held at the National Archive at  Kew. Wading through the file it 's surprising how many decorations were awarded to the American soldiers, maybe after the treaty of Versailles. The download was £3.50. Sadly he died from a stroke on a  social visit from Yonkers to New York City in May 1927 but his son., a relative, celebrated his 92nd birthday last month in Swansea. He remembers nothing about his father.

                Thank you once again for your help.

                                 Regards

                                       J W

                 

 

[john white]

Dear Members

            The above named was an American doctor attached to the 8th London Regiment, also known as the Post Office Rifles from about March 1918 to the end of the war and was awarded an MC in 1919. I would be very interested in any information about him. He was from Yonkers , New York State.

                               Regards

                                     J W

                                   

[seaJane]

http://collections.westchestergov.com/cdm/ref/collection/vetcards/id/4786

http://www.genealogy.com/forum/regional/states/topics/ny/48498/

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/162302147/

 

[john white]

Dear Members

            The above named was an American who served as the Medical Officer of the battalion from about March 1918 to the end of the war. He lived in Yonkers, New York state and was awarded a British Medal. Sadly he died in Yonkers in 1927. Does anybody have information about him please?

                                Thank you

                                       J W

[john white]

Dear Members

               Sorry Macbean was attached to the 8th London Regiment, The Post Office Rifles.

                                  J W

[TEW]

I see from his Vet Card that he went overseas 3rd Oct 1917, that at least helps narrow down diary searches for him. You quoted WO95/2714/ 3-5 as being his battalion diaries. Those are actually the diaries for the ADMS of 47th Division, not a bad choice of places to look for mentions of MacBean. The relevant 1/8 London Regiment battalion diaries are WO95/2731/4 and WO 95/3006/1.

 

WO95/2731/4 shows that a Lt. H E Keely joined 1/8 Londons from USMC as MO on 1/11/17. The ADMS 47 Div. doesn't mention this posting.

 

Lt. W B MacBean is mentioned in WO95/3006/1 in a Roll of Officers 1st May 1918 as the MO.

He gets another mention 24th November 1918 Lt. MacBean MO took over MO duties from Lt. Kennedy.

 

There may be more entries in between, didn't read the whole lot. WO 95/3006/1 only goes up to March 1919 and there are bits missing EG Dec 1918.

 

17th Jan 1919 Lt. W B MacBean proceeded on leave to England.

 

TEW

[john white]

Dear Tew

         Thanks for your reply.

   I take the point about the diaries. My first foray into downloads from Kew!. Information received so far  shows that he became the Medical Officer of the battalion in the Spring of 1918 until the end of the War  after the previous three had become casualties in quick succession. On 18th July he was awarded a British M C, one of 173 awards to American Doctors attached to British units.These are not shown in the London Gazette but are in a WO file held in Kew.

      On October 4th 1919 he married Carrie Turpin in New York. She had been an ambulance driver in the war and hailed from Swansea in South Wales. They lived well in Yonkers, New York State and in 1925 My uncle Bill was born. However in 1927 He collapsed whilst on a visit to friends in New York City and died. Uncle Bill is still alive in Swansea and last month celebrated his ninety-second birthday Auntie Carrie re-married in 1931 and the second husband had won an MC and bar in the war

                         Thanks for your help once again.

                                   Regards

                                        J W

[john white]

Dear Tew

          Clarification. The Military Cross was awarded on July 18th 1919 and the W.O. file number is 388/6. Page 30, list 40

                        Regards

                             J W

[petestarling]

His name does appear in the roll of US Medical officers who served with the British contained in The Lost Legion, The Story of the Fifteen Hundred Doctors who served with the BEF in the Great War by Dr WAR Chapin 1926 and he is on a roll of US medical personnel who received British awards that I have a copy of. My records show him as 8th Londons. Sadly the book is not indexed so I can not say if there is any mention of him in it.

[sotonmate]

JW

 

There are two Medal Index Cards for a W B MacBean:

1 for a Captain in an Orthopaedic Unit attached to RAMC showing the claim from the Chief Surgeon on 10.10.1919 for a British War Medal with a service date from 18.10.1917,and,

1 for a Dr ( I take as doctor) from 26 Hamilton Avenue, Yonkers, NY,claiming medals and dated 23.11.1923.

Neither card has a medal roll reference indicating issue.

There were three 8th Battalion London Regiment in existence, only one (1/8) was in a war zone, the other two (2/8 and 3/8) served at Home. As the Chief Surgeon had only listed the British War Medal entitlement I am wondering if the Doctor only served in the UK, and, as I have previously seen elsewhere with an American nurse working here, would have only been entitled to the BWM.

RAMC Territorial Force Officer files did not survive beyond the 1920s so we are unlikely to get info from those sources.

Edited 11 August , 2017 by sotonmate

[MaureenE]

This is (at least) the THIRD topic you have on this man. It is really makes e lot of work for people who in good faith spend time looking for information, and it probably already has been advised

 

Maureen

[MaureenE]

This is at least the THIRD topic on this man.

Also see 

 

 

[keithmroberts]

I have merged three topics about this man. This might create some duplication and disturb the order of comments, but it is preferable to bring the posts together. OP  if you wish to change the title or add tags you can do this by editing the post at the top of the thread. if you would prefer this to be in another section of the forum, report the first post, and ask for a moderator to move it.

 

Keith Roberts

 

[TEW]

Well, we know from the battalion diaries a Lt. W B MacBean served in France with the 1/8th London Regt. as MO from circa Spring 1918. His veteran's card linked by Maureen shows he served with 8th PO Rifles 58th Division. 1/8th London Regiment were 47th Division.

 

What I didn't look at yesterday was the ADMS diary for 58th Division! And there he is 9th Feb 1918 one of 7 MORCs arriving for duty with 58th Division and posted to 2/3rd Home Counties Field Ambulance. He's mentioned again 28th March 1918 still with 2/3 HCFA.

 

The MO of the 8th London regt. was gassed and evacuated on 17th April 1918 and replaced by 1st Lt B Crain MORC. Crain was gassed on the 19th and replaced by 1st Lt. Long who was also gassed. 1st Lt. Charles Robert Long was buried 21st April.

23rd April Lt. MacBean was detailed for duty with 8th London Regiment. NB that's different to the 1/8th London Regiment in as much as the 1/8th and 2/8th were amalgamated into the 8th Battalion in Feb 1918

 

Extract from 2/3 HCFA diary; WO 95/2997/6

 

He gets a few more mentions in 2/3 HCFA diary but they fail to mention him leaving.

 

I don't think any diaries will mention his MC as his award was quite late. Perhaps as Maureen pointed out his War Record No. 16620-32 may have the answer?

TEW

 

[Bartimeus]

15 hours ago, sotonmate said:

As the Chief Surgeon had only listed the British War Medal entitlement I am wondering if the Doctor only served in the UK, and, as I have previously seen elsewhere with an American nurse working here, would have only been entitled to the BWM.

 

If the person receiving a sole entitlement BWM was a British or Commonwealth subject serving overseas, out of their normal country of residence, then it might indeed indicate that they did not enter an active theatre of war.

 

In this case though I understand the officer in question to be an American serviceman embedded with a British unit, so he would have had entitlement to the version of the Victory Medal issued by his own government. If he had served in an active theatre of war with a British unit he would not have received a British-type Victory Medal in addition to his American one - an individual was supposed to receive only one version of the Inter-Allied Victory Medal, no matter how many variations they might technically have earned.

 

Examples of these mixed WW1 campaign groups have occasionally appeared. The one that sticks in my mind was to a British-born officer who had emigrated to the US some time before the war, and (I think) seen service with the US Army in some minor campaigns. When war broke out he volunteered for the British Army and was commissioned, serving at Gallipoli. After America entered the war he transferred to the US Army and served in France. His WW1 campaign entitlement was a British 1914-15 Star and BWM, but with a US type Victory Medal.

 

Bart

 

Edit: this the group I had in mind https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?department=Medals&lot_id=199632

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Bartimeus

[TEW]

I think both MICs mentioned by sotonmate are for the correct man as per the OP. Address seems good on one and date of entry is good for the other. Don't know why they appear blank suggesting no issue.

TEW

[Bartimeus]

I can't see any matching candidates on the medal rolls themselves. My guess would be that he was adjudicated not to be eligible for British campaign medals, on the grounds that he was a foreign officer attached to the British Army, rather than a foreign citizen commissioned in the British Army. A pity no decision was noted on the card.

 

Bart

Edited 12 August , 2017 by Bartimeus

[TEW]

My thoughts were that MICs were created from the rolls. However, cards would also be created following an application to Medal Office. Perhaps the codes on the card refers to correspondence telling him which department to apply to. The cards should really refer to him as MacBean MC but they don't for some reason.