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Remembered Today:

John H Lee, Machine Gun Corps, POW, Drowned


Stuart M

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I am researching John Henry Lee, 9th Machine Gun Corps, Service number 50698

He was taken prisoner in Roisel, France on 22 March 1918 and marched back first to Dulmen camp and by 3 July 1918 to Minden camp in Germany.

Three weeks later, on 24 July 1918 and +100 miles from Minden, he drowned in the Rhine at Xanten, possibly trying to escape.

He lies now in Cologne Southern Cemetery.

I would be very grateful for any help or advice about sources that will help me learn more about the circumstances of John Lee's death.

I've seen from other Forum posts that others perished in the Rhine while escaping but I know no more.

Thank you.

Stuart

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   I too have a casualty who died as a POW in 1918-  Supposedly fell off a bit of a coking plant while on a work party and banged his head. In my man's case, his service file has survived on Ancestry.  Thus, first-see if his service file is there.

     There would have been a German inquest report and it would have been sent to the  British Government somehow- My man has a translation in his service file, as well as the original.

     If there is no extant service file, then:

 

a)  Source in Germany-  The local admin. in whatever area of Germany may still have inquest reports from that time-they are quite brief. Good luck on searching for that. It seems that German officialdom liked a bit of stamped paper to inter a man in a particular cemetery-thus, the CWGC concentration report is a must-as it will show where he was first buried-and which is likely to be in the administrative area of the drowning. As a POW, he would have had a pauper's grave at the public expense. Cologne is a concentration cemetery-Although he might have drowned locally and interred there straight away.

      There is no concentration report for him on CWGC, though the registration listing does not have anyone in his row with a similar date of death. -suggesting concentration. I am not sure whether the concentration reports for Cologne have survived but it may be worth a call to CWGC to establish whether Row 17  is a row of original interments or concentration.

 

ii)  It is quite possible that the German Government notification is somewhere at Kew- the likeliest is a note to the Foreign Office via whichever agency (American consul, Red Cross,). Likely would have gone to the POW Department at the Foreign Office. There are annual printed volumes of FO correspondence which might contain his name for the 1918 volume- These listings are over and above what is on "Discovery". There is a file set of these on open shelves at Kew-they have been reprinted and located in major libraries but I will try to look him up when I am next at Kew.

 

iii)  German newspapers- The most likely source by a long way- Place and time help narrow it down. I have no idea if there is a German equivalent of British Newspaper Archive-I would be surprised if there was not, so maybe a German colleague can enlighten both of us-and perhaps do a "look-up" for you.

     Some German newspapers should be on the American system "Newspaper Archive" which has extensive scanned coverage of newspapers from all over the place. BUT a very strong caution- it is a company that is very sticky fingered if you pay to use by debit-and well-known to the Better Business Bureau in it's home state of Iowa. Again, the Mormon folk at Kew have access, so I can try to look up for you when next there (sometime next week).

       

 

 

 

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His Red Cross records state that he was drowned while escaping and buried in Xanten municipal cemetery.

 

Charlie

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There are no concentration reports for those that lie in Cologne Southern - those records no longer exist according to CWGC.

 

There was nothing in place for either party to inform each other directly of the circumstances of deaths of individuals - they went through the Red Cross and, as Charlie has pointed out - that was done and his record is there. In 1918 there was an attempt to establish procedures for information about accidental, unexplained or suspicious deaths. It took months to set up and the Germans were not very forthcoming with information in their reports. It was not until the British began to respond in kind by giving only very basic information that the Germans became more forthcoming. As an example, one of the most famous cases that should have been reported via this system was the death of Blue Jacket Genower - it took a Parliamentary Enquiry to get the information surrounding his death. There were, considering the amount of deaths, very few cases that were reported via this system because by the time the system began to work, the war was almost over. In some cases, as in Genower, the information was not given voluntarily and it was only because the British found out about an accidental/unexplained death from another source, that they were able to ask the Germans for information about certain individuals.

 

If John Lee had an accomplice in his escape that managed to get through successfully, there may be a chance of finding more information. If, on the other hand, he was alone then the chances of finding any further information about him are pretty slim. He may have been carried in the river some considerable distance from where he entered the river and there was a huge concentration of working commandos in that area. Add to that, some escapers did travel considerable distances overland and you can see how difficult tracing your man is going to be.

 

Best thing would be to follow Charlie's advice and see what is in the registry office records - I would also be looking to see if there were any other Brits buried in Xanten from that period.

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Thank you for your comprehensive post.

I thought I might have exhausted the research options but you've given me several opportunities to follow-up and I'm very grateful.

While German records are known to be thorough, I suspect escapees defied the normal protocols and I didn't expect this to be simple.

I'd like to see what I can find out because, somehow, the centenary of his death in 2018 feels important.

 

Charlie

Thank you for responding, especially with the links

My German isn't accurate, I thought the ICRC records referred to 'escaping' but I wasn't sure.

I hope my language skills won't be too much of a disadvantage following-up the links to Xanten records.

 

Seaforths

Thank you for responding, the news about the concentration reports is sad but not really a surprise.

I haven't looked in detail at other Southern Cologne burials because I was aware they had come from all over Germany.

I'll see if there is any evidence of an accomplice in the CWGC records.

 

Thank again to all.

Stuart

 

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On 03/08/2017 at 10:36, Stuart M said:

 

Thank you for your comprehensive post.

I thought I might have exhausted the research options but you've given me several opportunities to follow-up and I'm very grateful.

While German records are known to be thorough, I suspect escapees defied the normal protocols and I didn't expect this to be simple.

I'd like to see what I can find out because, somehow, the centenary of his death in 2018 feels important.

 

Charlie

Thank you for responding, especially with the links

My German isn't accurate, I thought the ICRC records referred to 'escaping' but I wasn't sure.

I hope my language skills won't be too much of a disadvantage following-up the links to Xanten records.

 

Seaforths

Thank you for responding, the news about the concentration reports is sad but not really a surprise.

I haven't looked in detail at other Southern Cologne burials because I was aware they had come from all over Germany.

I'll see if there is any evidence of an accomplice in the CWGC records.

 

Thank again to all.

Stuart

 

 

When I mentioned an accompice - I meant one that actually survived and made it. There were statements taken from those that returned in WO 161 there is an index to them which is WO 100 (I think). The index can be downloaded in 12 parts for free and it can be checked to see if anyone mentions John Lee by name. The POW Interview Reports can be searched online on the National Archives site but I've found that isn't very accurate and end up doing a manual check from the downloaded index. Even if he didn't have anyone with him when he tried to escape, someone might have made it back and mentioned seeing him somewhere.

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2 hours ago, seaforths said:

 

When I mentioned an accompice - I meant one that actually survived and made it. There were statements taken from those that returned in WO 161 there is an index to them which is WO 100 (I think). The index can be downloaded in 12 parts for free and it can be checked to see if anyone mentions John Lee by name. The POW Interview Reports can be searched online on the National Archives site but I've found that isn't very accurate and end up doing a manual check from the downloaded index. Even if he didn't have anyone with him when he tried to escape, someone might have made it back and mentioned seeing him somewhere.

 

     If it helps, there are 5 other burials in Cologne Southern with the date of death given as 24th July 1918  4 of them died of illness or wounds-one is untraced as the German files to ICRC do not have one where he is listed as dead ( James Albert Birch, East Lancs.)

    I suspect your man may not have drowned at Xanten- probably where his body was recovered. Xanten is downriver from the main chunk of the Ruhr industrial area and many tens of thousands of POWS were put to work -usually heavy manual- during the war. Conditions were grim in 1918, not only because of the large influx of POWs taken in the German offensives of March-April 1918 but mainly due to the food shortages. Heavy work plus poor diet (and poor living conditions) means the German casualty lists on ICRC for 1918 have a large number of deaths from illness in them-  While looking for the 5 other deaths on 24/7/18, there are quite a lot of lung infection deaths- 3 of the other 4 died of illness -and that after they were captured unwounded. 

    There would be little point in trying to escape  by crossing the Rhine at Xanten as it is German territory on both banks. If you do look at the POW debriefs, then perhaps look for escape attempts further upriver-Essen, Duisburg, etc for a week or so beforehand.  Also, I have one local POW (survived), whose debrief report after a successful escape (Swam the Danube) is irritating as it does not have details of his final escape, just his previous ones.  A main purpose of the debrief reports was to gather information on the treatment of prisoners, so some of the debrief reports (If you are minded to track them) would have details about both Dulmen and Minden camps and conditions in them

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  • 3 weeks later...

Charlie

From the link you gave me I was pleased to get hold of the burial certificate for John Lee (attached).

I was pleasantly surprised to find John Lee is one of IWM's 'Lives of the First World War' and I published the certificate there.

Thank you!

 

 

Wouldn't your comment about German territory on both banks of the Rhine apply as far as South as Karlsruhe?

Assuming John Lee was coming from Minden Camp is it not likely, taking a reasonably direct route, he would have had to cross the Rhine and carry on in German territory?

Minden is +100 miles from Xanten and twice that from Karlsruhe - I'm beginning to wonder if he was based at Minden as the ICRC records state or perhaps here was an associated site nearer the Rhine.

As you point out, wherever he was, the conditions must have been intolerable enough to make it worth escaping and taking on a long march across Germany and then the risk of crossing the river.

 

Thanks again.

Stuart

Burial certificate jpeg.jpg

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Stuart,

His death certificate records that his body was recovered at 11.30 am on the 22nd July. 

 

Charlie

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  Stuart-   Good to see you got the certificate. We can only speculate about how he got to be found dead in the Rhine to start with. The ICRC record is probably correct as far as it goes- Minden camp-a goodly number of miles from the Ruhr.  BUT- this may well have been just the admin. centre for his captivity. People seem to have a wrong image of POWs-the British war movie industry seems to have portrayed them as enterprising public school boys living life as a jolly jape until they successfully escaped. The treatment of Other Ranks was anything but that-ORs were required to work and that labour was pretty close to slave labour- it tended to be heavy manual work-with poor rations and poor conditions. A camp at Minden is likely to have provided large work parties for railway,mining,building work in the Ruhr. And all under the German code of military discipline. A deeply unpleasant  experience in the Great War that is not that well represented-the most [popular account of POWs in the Great War is "The Tunnelers of Holzminden"- surprisingly, jolly public school boys escaping from the dorm. 

   As to escaping- where to? The only sensible place to head for was Holland-and he was found upriver. Might have hoped to make his way downriver-all we know is his body was recovered. All else is speculation.

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His death was reported by the authorities in Wardt. The area of Beek am Rhein is also mentioned .Both are districts of Xanten. A better scan of the certificate would help.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie2
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Charlie

That is the better scan!

I got one version from https://www.ongen.de/ which was poor and a better one later direct from https://www.rathaus-xanten.de/de/dienstleistungen/familienforschung-im-bereich-xanten-und-umgebung/

It's proving a bit difficult to find out much about Minden Camp because so many searches default to Holzminden, especially in connection with escapes.

Middlebrook's 'Kaiser's Battle' was very helpful context for the events around St Quentin on 21 March 1918, although John Lee was (seemingly) taken prisoner in Roisel the day after.

I think he was in reserve until 22 March and assume he was captured almost straightaway before being marched back into Germany.

I haven't found out much about John Lee to suggest he had many breaks in life, so a work camp and drowning is an even sadder end.

I'm also puzzled how he met and married my grandmother in the only very limited periods of leave the soldiers we granted.

 

I discovered recently that his brother, Jacob, drowned in January 1918, he was in the navy and his ship ran aground in the Orkneys - there was one survivor out of 188 crew.

How families must have suffered at the time.

 

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On 25. August 2017 at 20:12, Stuart M said:

Charlie

That is the better scan!

 

 

 

With the help of a magnifying glass this is what is written on the death certificate

 

Die Polizeiverwaltung der Landgemeinde Wardt hat angezeigt daß der englische Kriegsgefangener eines Korps der Linien-Husaren, Kriegsgefangenen Stammlager Minden, hausdiener Johann Henry Lee 22 Jahre 2 Monate alt, methodistischer Religion, Sohnes Henry Lee, Stand oder Gewerbe unbekannt, wohnhaft zu 102 Roman Rd Bernsbury St, Vor und Zuname der Mutter unbekannt, zu Beek am Rhein am zwei und zwanzigsten Juli des Jahres tausend neunhundert achtzehn, vor mittags um elf ein halb Uhr als Leiche gelandet worden sei. Vorstehend 24 Druckworte gestrichen.

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My German pal offers this 'rough' translation.

 

" The police administration of the rural council of Wardt has announced that the English prisoner war of corps of the "line hussars" prisoner of war camp Minden, servant Johann Henry Lee, 22 years 2 months old, Methodist religion, son of Henry Lee, status or trade unknown, residence at 102 Roman road, Bernsbury Street. First  and surname of mother unknown, at Beek am Rhein (on the Rhine) on the twenty second of July of the year one thousand nine hundred and eighteen, before noon at eleven thirty o'clock declared as dead body. "

 

 

 

 

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The German from his ICRC card (or one of them-3 in all), says that he drowned "auf der flucht"- that is, "on the run"-  rather than during an escape, so he may have escaped earlier-which may explain how far he was from Minden

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Apologies for my tardy response which was due to a wi-fi free holiday.

Thank you for your help with my research, especially the work with the magnifying glass.

It is all much appreciated.

If I learn anymore I will post here, I'm glad there are still a couple of leads to follow-up.

Thanks again.

Stuart

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  • 1 year later...

 

I commissioned a German historian to search the archives and there were no new results.

It was quite an expensive exercise but it had to be done.

It seems whatever records may have existed were lost during WWI.

I'm going through the PoW accounts at the National Archives which is helpful background to what John Henry Lee may have experienced but I doubt I will find anything more specific.

In the meantime, my research led to the Parish Council in Barrow-on-Soar agreeing to add his name to the war memorial there - which is good news.

Also, I visited his grave in Cologne which was very moving, I think I must have been the first to do so in 100 years

Thanks again for your earlier help.

Stuart

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Stuart,

Thanks for the update, its always interesting to find out how things turned out.

 

Charlie

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