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Nick1914

2nd Bn KRRC 1914

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Nick1914

Mark 

 

* = (original embarkation group 13th Aug on SS Honorius to Rouen) ie my known/perceived correct facts

 

Best, Nick

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MBrockway
2 hours ago, johnboy said:

SS honorus is in the entry for cheshire reg described as a cattle boat

http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/GREATWAR/2002-06/1023691670

 

1/KRRC diary also describes it as recently converted from a cattle boat.

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johnboy

Mention of another cattle boat

 

Guardsman Sidney Bland 1 st Battalion Welsh Guards Regimental Number 1093 Aug 17th 1915 We leave Wellington Bks. About midnight, entrain at Waterloo for Southampton. After a pleasant journey we arrive at the docks about 8am. Tue 18th Aug We have to wait about the docks until 4pm without food, when we embark on “Palm Beach” a cattle boat. We sail about 4.30pm Wed 19th Aug After a fairly comfy passage we arrive at La Harve, about 3am we disembark, at 7am then we march to a rest camp, about 3 ki

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Guest

Here is the list on my database. This is based on the 1914 Star Medal Roll cross referenced against the War Diary (blue) published history, 1914 Army list and ODGW. This was done some time ago and may contain small errors. There are a few gaps remaining.Please note that all sources referenced above do occasionally contain errors. Having worked through the whole of the BEF infantry and Cavalry 1914 Star roll I can safely say the roll is not perfect and contains factual errors that do not resolve with the diary records. That said it is the best starting point when battalions fail to record nominal rolls. Some were of course employed at Brigade level or elsewhere. 

 

Obit and Photo relates to entries in Bond of Sacrifice.

 

The list is 2nd Bn KRRC sorted in chronological order of (alleged) disembarkation.

 

My only differences with Mark's list is Lt J E Pleydell Bouverie who is on the Star roll for 13th Aug 14, DOW 1st Nov 14. Bond of Sacrifice has an Obit and photo. BOS states he went out with a draft at the end of August and joined the 2nd Bn on 20th September which would be consistent with the arrival of the 3rd Reinforcement drafts for the BEF's regular infantry. Took over command of 13th and 14th Platoons. Wounded at Gheluvelt 31st Oct 14 and died of wounds the following day. The Star roll clearly shows 13th Aug as disembarkation date, so this is an example of different sources not resolving - a possible error on the roll? Also worth noting the specific draft is not recorded in the diary (an unusual omission) and Pleydell-Bouverie is not mentioned until 23rd Oct 14.

 

Marks comments on Acland Troyte and Willan are additional info to me. Thanks. 

 

KRRC Officers 2nd Bn 1914.jpg

Edited by Guest

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Guest

1st Bn KRRC

 

 

KRRC Officers 1st Bn 1914.jpg

Edited by Guest

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MBrockway
6 hours ago, QGE said:

My only differences with Mark's list is Lt J E Pleydell Bouverie who is on the Star roll for 13th Aug 14, DOW 1st Nov 14. Bond of Sacrifice has an Obit and photo. BOS states he went out with a draft at the end of August and joined the 2nd Bn on 20th September which would be consistent with the arrival of the 3rd Reinforcement drafts for the BEF's regular infantry. Took over command of 13th and 14th Platoons. Wounded at Gheluvelt 31st Oct 14 and died of wounds the following day. The Star roll clearly shows 13th Aug as disembarkation date, so this is an example of different sources not resolving - a possible error on the roll? Also worth noting the specific draft is not recorded in the diary (an unusual omission) and Pleydell-Bouverie is not mentioned until 23rd Oct 14.

 

 

Jacob Pleydell-Bouverie's MIC gives a Disembarkation Date of 31 Aug 1914, in line with the BOS and other KRRC sources, so it looks like the Star Roll date is incorrect - possibly a transcription error of '13' for '31'?

 

He was formally with 4/KRRC, who were out in India, but he returned to the UK in 1911 and was stationed at the Rifle Depot.  Immediately before the outbreak of the war he appears to have been still on the strength of 4/KRRC, but attached to 6th (Special Reserve) Battalion, KRRC (the erstwhile 2nd Royal Rifle Regiment of Middlesex Militia) then at Woolwich, [Edit: in fact it appears from the Monthly Army Lists, that 5/KRRC and 6/KRRC re-located from Woolwich to Winchester around Sep 1913] but who re-located to Sheerness immediately.  He was definitely a Regular officer attached, not Special Reserve. [Edit: see below for more on this 6/KRRC attachment]

 

He was definitely not formally on the strength of 2/KRRC when they went out.

 

The full BOS entry mentions he took out a draft from Sheerness, so clearly attached to 6/KRRC up to that point.

 

KRRC Chronicle has him joining 2/KRRC in the field on 21 Sep 1914, not 20th.  Seems likely he spent 31 Aug to 20 Sep with his draft working up at the IBD.

 

Otherwise all my facts agree with Martin's.

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway
Corrections after further digging

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Guest
21 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

 

Jacob Pleydell-Bouverie's MIC gives a Disembarkation Date of 31 Aug 1914, in line with the BOS and other KRRC sources, so it looks like the Star Roll date is incorrect - possibly a transcription error of '13' for '31'?

 

He was formally with 4/KRRC, who were out in India, but he returned to the UK in 1911 and was stationed at the Rifle Depot.  Immediately before the outbreak of the war he appears to have been still on the strength of 4/KRRC, but attached to 6th (Special Reserve) Battalion, KRRC (the erstwhile 2nd Royal Rifle Regiment of Middlesex Militia) then at Woolwich, but who re-located to Sheerness immediately.  He was definitely a Regular officer attached, not Special Reserve.

 

He was definitely not formally on the strength of 2/KRRC when they went out.

 

The full BOS entry mentions he took out a draft from Sheerness, so clearly attached to 6/KRRC up to that point.

 

KRRC Chronicle has him joining 2/KRRC in the field on 21 Sep 1914, not 20th.  Seems likely he spent 31 Aug to 20 Sep with his draft working up at the IBD.

 

Otherwise all my facts agree with Martin's.

 

Mark

 

 

 

Mark - many thanks for the details. In fact the roll shows 31st and it is my error not the Roll's.  Here is his BOS entry in full

 

Bouverie, Lieutenant Jacob Edward Pleydell-, 2nd Bn. King‘s Royal Rifle Corps, who died in hospital at Boulogne on the 1st November, 1914, was the only son of the late Hon. Duncombe Pleydell-Bouverie, second son of the fourth Earl of Radnor, and his wife, Marie Eleanor Pleydell-Bouverie, of Coleshill House, Highworth, Berkshire, daughter of Sir Edward Hulse 5th Baronet.

 

He was born on the 12th July, 1887, and was educated at Eton and the RMC, Sandhurst, from which be was gazetted to the King’s Royal Rifle Corps in February, 1908, being posted to the 4th Battalion. In 1909 he went to India with his battalion, and having been promoted Lieutenant in January, 1911, soon after returned to England and was stationed at the Rifle Depot, Winchester, until the war broke out. Lieutenant Pleydell-Bouverie, who was a member of the Bath Club, was a keen cricketer and played frequently for the Green Jackets and Free Foresters.

 

At the end of August, 1914, he left Sheerness with a draft, and joined the 2nd Battalion of his regiment on the 20th September, taking command of the 13th and 14th platoons. He was mortally wounded at Gheluvelt on the 31st October during the German attack on Ypres, and died early next morning in No.13 Stationary Hospital at Boulogne.

Pleydell-Bouverie.JPG

Edited by Guest

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MBrockway

Further digging on Jacob Pleydell-Bouverie points to his returning from India to the UK in 1912, where, although still formally 4/KRRC, he was put on the strength of the Rifle Depot in Winchester.

 

In Sep/Oct 1913, the two Special Reserve battalions (5th & 6th) re-located from Woolwich to Winchester.

 

In Nov/Dec 1913, Jacob Pleydell-Bouverie was attached to 6/KRRC, but in Winchester, not Woolwich as I stated higher up.

 

 

 

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Nick1914

Gentlemen, as always I marvel at your knowledge.  Just been through the 2nd KRRC and so far and a few suggestions/ideas to think about:

 

Lewis Francis Phillips was also wounded on 23/10/'14 at Langermarck......presumably same action as Heyland?

 

Charles Alexander Kenneth Anderson - gazetted to 1st KRRC but actually kia at Herenthage Chateau 12th November '14 when with Royal Scots Fusiliers.  Not sure he was something more than just 'attached' but transferred?

 

Captain Sir William Algernon Ireland Kay - wounded 6th Oct '14 but serving as a GSO with GHQ.......so did he go out with the KRRC or not?

 

Captain Charles Ivor Rivers-Bulkeley - I think perhaps commissioned into 3rd KSLI(Aug 1914) but attached to 2nd KRRC/

 

Note I think your Scots Guard question is actually Captain Thomas Henry Rivers-Bulkeley who went out with the 2nd Bn Scots Guards in October via Zeebrugge and was wounded 22 October '14. Clearly a relative!

 

Finally Captain Horace John Flower - I've just checked on CWGC site and died 31/01/1919

 

Best, Nick   I wil have a look at the 1st KRRC over the coming days

 

A point to ponder!  I'm just reading a book about WW2 Germany by Prof Nichols Stargardt - chair Modern History at Magdalen College Oxford - he says ".........many friends & colleagues have encouraged me along the way, shared their ideas and findings, giving me a very vivid sense of history as a collective endeavour".

 

 

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Rammer

not sure whether I am in the correct forum but please feel free to remove

My Grandfather 6244 S H Hunt served in the 2nd KRRC demobbed and was recalled on reserve in 1914 BEF 2nd KRRC

He died of his wounds in La Ferte sous Jouarre  September 1914

I have no idea what he looked like and was wondering if on the off chance anyone knew what company or platoon  he was in or would anyone have any photos of  the platoon or company,  

Kind Regards

 

Rammer

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Guest

Nick 1914  quote 

 

"Gentlemen, as always I marvel at your knowledge.  Just been through the 2nd KRRC and so far and a few suggestions/ideas to think about:

 

Lewis Francis Phillips was also wounded on 23/10/'14 at Langermarck......presumably same action as Heyland?

Yes. Diary entry on 24th sumarising the actions losses mentions Phillips wounded.

 

Charles Alexander Kenneth Anderson - gazetted to 1st KRRC but actually kia at Herenthage Chateau 12th November '14 when with Royal Scots Fusiliers.  Not sure he was something more than just 'attached' but transferred? Oddly the May 1915 Army list has him indexed in RSF but his name is absent from the page. Nov 1914 Army List he is in col 1338 as 1st Bn KRRC. Presumably 'attached' rater than transferred. RSF wardairy only mentions him on the date of his death. 

 

Bond of Sacrifice has him gazetted to RSF as a University Cadet on 4th Aug 1914 ans gazetted to KRRC on 14th Aug but having already departed with the RSF he remained attached. to the RSF. Harrow. Cambridge.

 

Captain Sir William Algernon Ireland Kay - wounded 6th Oct '14 but serving as a GSO with GHQ.......so did he go out with the KRRC or not? Only mention in diary is a one liner on 6th Oct. No other mention. Staff officers were sometimes posted back to battalions that had large losses. One possible explanation.

 

Captain Charles Ivor Rivers-Bulkeley - I think perhaps commissioned into 3rd KSLI(Aug 1914) but attached to 2nd KRRC/ Diary simply uses surname, no initials. Nov 1914 Army list has 3rd Bn Shropshire LI with Van Cutsem (one name above) also 3rd Bn Shropshire LI however the  May 1915 Army list has C I R Bulkley 2nd Bn KRRC,  prev Scots Guards Res of Officers. (hence my "?")...and Van Cutsem still 3rd Bn Shropshire LI ... so somewhere between Nov 1914 and May 1915 either an error was corrected or C I R Bulkeley transferred. Cant quite see how one goes from 3rd Bn Shrophsire LI to Res of Offrs Scots Guards while serving with KRRC. A small mystery. ...possibly Militia Commission pre war,trasn to SG pre war then Res of Offrs. Given his namesake was aslo SG and was prev Oxford Militia seems a possibility. Etonian.

 

Note I think your Scots Guard question is actually Captain Thomas Henry Rivers-Bulkeley who went out with the 2nd Bn Scots Guards in October via Zeebrugge and was wounded 22 October '14. Clearly a relative! Killed on 22nd according to Bond of Sacrifice.

 

Finally Captain Horace John Flower - I've just checked on CWGC site and died 31/01/1919 Noted.Thanks.

 

Best, Nick   I wil have a look at the 1st KRRC over the coming days

 

A point to ponder!  I'm just reading a book about WW2 Germany by Prof Nichols Stargardt - chair Modern History at Magdalen College Oxford - he says ".........many friends & colleagues have encouraged me along the way, shared their ideas and findings, giving me a very vivid sense of history as a collective endeavour".

 

 

my comments in blue MG

Edited by Guest

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MBrockway

"Gentlemen, as always I marvel at your knowledge.  Just been through the 2nd KRRC and so far and a few suggestions/ideas to think about:

 

Lewis Francis Phillips was also wounded on 23/10/'14 at Langermarck......presumably same action as Heyland?

Yes. Diary entry on 24th sumarising the actions losses mentions Phillips wounded.

Chronicle has Major Philips as "Slightly wounded 23-10-14"  Langemarck, not Langermarck, but the action took place astride the Bixschoote-Pilkem road and is known as "the Het Sas Fight" in the 60th literature.

 

Charles Alexander Kenneth Anderson - gazetted to 1st KRRC but actually kia at Herenthage Chateau 12th November '14 when with Royal Scots Fusiliers.  Not sure he was something more than just 'attached' but transferred? Oddly the May 1915 Army list has him indexed in RSF but his name is absent from the page. Nov 1914 Army List he is in col 1338 as 1st Bn KRRC. Presumably 'attached' rater than transferred. RSF wardairy only mentions him on the date of his death. 
 

Bond of Sacrifice has him gazetted to RSF as a University Cadet on 4th Aug 1914 ans gazetted to KRRC on 14th Aug but having already departed with the RSF he remained attached. to the RSF. Harrow. Cambridge.

Summary info from Obit in 1914 KRRC Chronicle:

CAK Anderson "was killed in action on November 10th-11th whilst serving with the 1st Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers, was the only son of Mr AR Anderson, FRCS, of Nottingham ... He was transferred to the Regiment on August 14th, 1914"

 

 

Captain Sir William Algernon Ireland Kay - wounded 6th Oct '14 but serving as a GSO with GHQ.......so did he go out with the KRRC or not? Only mention in diary is a one liner on 6th Oct. No other mention. Staff officers were sometimes posted back to battalions that had large losses. One possible explanation.

Chronicle has him joining Bn on 17 Sep 1914 in the field, wounded 06 Oct 1914

Listed as a Major with DSO in 1915 Chronicle under Extra-Regimentally Employed - "General Staff, France".

However, he's absent from equivalent list in 1914 Chronicle - unlike Acland-Troyte - so probably with bn., but did not go out with them.

Haven't checked his MIC.

 

Captain Charles Ivor Rivers-Bulkeley - I think perhaps commissioned into 3rd KSLI(Aug 1914) but attached to 2nd KRRC/ Diary simply uses surname, no initials. Nov 1914 Army list has 3rd Bn Shropshire LI with Van Cutsem (one name above) also 3rd Bn Shropshire LI however the  May 1915 Army list has C I R Bulkley 2nd Bn KRRC,  prev Scots Guards Res of Officers. (hence my "?")...and Van Cutsem still 3rd Bn Shropshire LI ... so somewhere between Nov 1914 and May 1915 either an error was corrected or C I R Bulkeley transferred. Cant quite see how one goes from 3rd Bn Shrophsire LI to Res of Offrs Scots Guards while serving with KRRC. A small mystery. ...possibly Militia Commission pre war,trasn to SG pre war then Res of Offrs. Given his namesake was aslo SG and was prev Oxford Militia seems a possibility. Etonian.

Chronicle has him as KSLI and joining Bn on 01 Nov 1914 in the field, wounded 06 Nov 1914.  He is listed as Capt. CJ[sic, but errors in initials are not uncommon]R Bulkley, KSLI.  Not Bulkeley.

 

Eton RoH has him as ..

1901 Bulkeley [sic, so probably the correct spelling], C. I. R., Capt. Scots Gds., late Capt., Shropshire LI, att KRRC, wounded. France (Killed 16 May 1915)

 

Note I think your Scots Guard question is actually Captain Thomas Henry Rivers-Bulkeley who went out with the 2nd Bn Scots Guards in October via Zeebrugge and was wounded 22 October '14. Clearly a relative! Killed on 22nd according to Bond of Sacrifice.

Eton RoH has him as ..

1895 Bulkeley, T. H. R., CMG, MVO, Capt. Scots Gds., France (Killed 22 Oct 1914)

Eton RoH also has another possible relation ..

1898 Bulkeley, F. R., Capt. OBLI, att. RFA and Remount Service. France.

 

Finally Captain Horace John Flower - I've just checked on CWGC site and died 31/01/1919 Noted.Thanks.

Obit in 1919 Chronicle.  Highlights:

Major H. J. FLOWER, DSO, MC

Known as John Flower.

Born 1883.

Winchester and Sandhurst.

1902 Commissioned into KRRC

1903 Joined 3/KRRC.

1912 Married Richenda Barclay of Colney Hall, Norwich.

1913 Adjutant 16/LR (QWR) [very common for promising 60th officers to have spells with the LR TF bns]

Nov 1914 Went out with 1st/16 LR. Served up to Second Ypres. MC

?? Brigade Major 85 Brigade.  Battle of Loos.

Serious head wound at Loos.  Never properly recovered.

In hospital in England. DSO.

Did office work at War Office, for which he was unsuited and it made him worse.  Invalided out - no date given.

Died suddenly and quite peacefully on 01 Feb 1919.

 

 

Best, Nick   I wil have a look at the 1st KRRC over the coming days

Regretfully I will not be able to dig into 1/KRRC for you to the same extent

 

A point to ponder!  I'm just reading a book about WW2 Germany by Prof Nichols Stargardt - chair Modern History at Magdalen College Oxford - he says ".........many friends & colleagues have encouraged me along the way, shared their ideas and findings, giving me a very vivid sense of history as a collective endeavour".

 

 

my comments in blue MG

my comments in red MB - I haven't checked Army Lists as I'm 100% sure Martin will have already gleaned all possible therefrom

 

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51st Sikhs

MBrockway,

 

Wonderful thread which has confirmed for me that Major GA Armytage had disembarked with the 1st KRRC on 13/08/14. 

I have his sword which I had just bought at auction today. By chance would you have a photo of him in one of the KRRC journals or where you might direct me to if you please? 

 

Many thanks! 

719783C6-678D-45C0-B0F5-52C91AA2D38B.jpeg

00CF217B-F513-4B03-8CA2-CF79FB992CF6.jpeg

2E207DEC-F5CC-4F46-B4F8-A405FB237ABD.jpeg

A3E4122C-DD80-4F1A-9242-9C6C5ED48980.jpeg

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MBrockway
Posted (edited)

Sir George Ayscough Armytage

 

This is Armytage as Major from the 1/KRRC officers' portrait taken at Aldershot shortly before the outbreak of the war and in the 1914 KRRC Chronicle ...

 

446672150_ARMYTAGEMajGA1-KRRCKRRCChronicle1914.jpg.211083aa89b7519e70eb53969ae25592.jpg

 

Possibly a better addition to your file supporting the wonderful sword would be the study portrait photographs of him in the National Portrait Gallery. 

 

See here:

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp67002/sir-george-ayscough-armytage-7th-bt?search=sas&sText=George+Ayscough+Armytage

 

This from 1918 - on the Staff, as Brigadier commanding 117 Bde, but sporting rifles buttons of course.  Once a Rifleman, always a Rifleman  :thumbsup: ...

Sir-George-Ayscough-Armytage-7th-Bt.jpg

NPG x163665 © National Portrait Gallery, London

 

Born 1872.  Educated Harrow.   Commissioned into 4/KRRC in 1894.  1903 Adjutant, Rifle Depot.  1906 joined 1/KRRC in Egypt.


He took command of 1/KRRC on 18 May 1915 and became Brigadier i/c 74 Infantry Brigade in April 1916.  He later commanded 117 Inf Bde in 39th Division.  He ended the war as a Brigadier.

 

DSO in 1917, CMG in 1918, four MiDs and a Croix de Guerre.

 

On the death of his father in 1918 he became Sir George Ayscough Armytage, 7th Baronet of Kirklees.

 

Post war he was in command of 1/KRRC Dec 1919 to May 1920.

 

Retired 1922.

 

Died in 1953.

 

His son and grandson both served in the 60th.

 

When I get a chance over the next few days I'll scan his full obituary and another studio portrait from 1914.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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51st Sikhs

MBrockway,

 

Many many thanks for the biography and photos which are very helpful and lends well to the sword. So he was quite well known in the Regiment. Quite delighted with the information! 

Would you know what company he commanded when he landed with the 1st KRRC in August 1914? The attractive thing about this sword was that it the one he wore when he landed in France as it was sharpened for active service. 

 

 

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stiletto_33853

Armytage, George Ayscough (Moretons)

Son of Sir G. J. Armytage, 6th Bart. Left Harrow 1889, joined KRRC 1894; Captain 1901; Major 1912. Great War, 1914 Star; Brigade Commander in France 1916-19; Bt. Lieut.-Col. 1916; Croix de Guerre; so 1917; CMG 1918; five mentions in despatches. 7th Bart 1918. Colonel commanding 2nd West Riding Infantry Brigade 1921-22; Hon. Brig.-Gen. J.P. W. Riding, Yorks; Master of Old Harrovian Lodge, No. 4653, 1938-39.

address: Kirklees Park, Brighouse, Yorks,

 

source: Harrow School Register 1885-1949

 

 

Andy

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51st Sikhs
Posted (edited)

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks for this, good for my files!

Edited by 51st Sikhs

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MBrockway
Posted (edited)

George Armytage's obituary from the KRRC Chronicle ...

 

250010493_ARMYTAGESirGAMajor-Obit1953KRRCChroniclep_115.jpg.d380b67ae546cad21b9d4e2f5afd368a.jpg

1363763759_ARMYTAGESirGAMajor-Obit1953KRRCChroniclep_116.jpg.e4751673960861fecff10618f2c32f07.jpg

 

 

 

339622195_ARMYTAGESirGAMajorc1914KRRCChronicle-WMed.jpg.ebe4bf3e0ae0bacb87b1ba30e9951909.jpg

 

Mark

 

Edited by MBrockway

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51st Sikhs

Great stuff Mark. Many thanks, just what's needed!

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