Need some help with a headstemp

[assafx]

Hello,

i couldn't find in the books that i have any reference to this manufacturer.

It seems to be U in Gothic font. searching in my copy of:  White, H. P. and Munhall, B. D., Cartridge Headstamp Guide, i couldn't find anything similar.

checking the list in the IAA website i found this:

U =  Rheinisch- Westfälische Sprengstoff A.-G., Nuremburg, Germany,  with the reference to: White, H. P. and Munhall, B. D., Cartridge Headstamp Guide...

 

am i missing something?

 

Thank you

 

Assaf

 

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hi Assaf,

If you go to White/Munhall (First Revision) you will find under "N" at page 112 an entry that states "Firm using odd style letter "n" is unknown".  Moving on from there I have found an entry in German 7.9mm Military Ammunition by Kent for the marking at page 123 that states "RWS Nurnberg & Stadeln.  This "N" is often viewed as a "U" ".   

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Michael.

 

[assafx]

Michael,

You were helpful,

I have the 1963 edition but i was able to find it under N, in page 149 (item 1327) it has E17, N, 9 and S.

I don't have Ken,t so i can't look further or cite it, but that's a step in the right direction.

Thanks

Assaf

[Michael Haselgrove]

Assaf,

Here's a copy of the entry.

Michael.

[assafx]

Fantastic, Thank You.

 

Assaf

[assafx]

This time i have an Issue with a headstamp that might have two sources.

 

was it made in: Munitionsfabrik Cassel or patronenfabrik cleebronn?

 

Thank You,

 

Assaf

 

[shippingsteel]

Assaf, it will have been made at Munitionsfabrik Cassel in March 1917

 

Cheers, SS

[assafx]

Thanks S^S,

 

Any idea where can i find a source that i can use as a reference in an article?

They will not accept the IAA list or this forum as a reference.

White and Burton don't have a manufacturer on this headstamp and in Howard Willamson books i found the cleebronn which is the wrong one.

 

Assaf

 

[shippingsteel]

Assaf, not sure if this page would be acceptable but it shows an exact match for your cartridge. Hardcopy references are hard to find ...

https://naboje.org/en/node/12938

 

Cheers, SS

[assafx]

hardcopies are my biggest problem and in 90% of the cases, they are not in libraries.

 

btw they list both locations under this headstamp.

Edited 25 May , 2020 by assafx

[trajan]

Assaf, my copy of Storz Gew.98 is in my office and lockdown means that I can't get to it. But I am pretty certain he gives a list of all headstamps in it - send a PM to Michael Haselgrove (frequently on this forum!) as I think he has a copy at home and could check for you.

[assafx]

Thank you, once the kids will fall asleep i'll write him down. a quick check on amazon lists it as one of the books my wife will never let me buy... 170 $

[Michael Haselgrove]

Julian,

I'm impressed with your recollection of the contents of the book!

Assaf,

I attach a photo taken from Rifle & Carbine 98 by Dieter Storz who, you will see, attributes the C marking as having been manufactured at Kassel.  The illustrated case is different from Assaf's in two respects.  Firstly, it doesn't have the four line marking used from April 1916 to indicate a bullet with a groove; this is of no significance to the question here.  However, secondly I note the C is stamped the other way round and I don't know if that makes any difference - probably not?

In case the background is of interest, at page 315 Dieter Storz wrote: "After the beginning of the war Prussia founded a new state-run ammunition factory in Kassel, which started operations on 1 March 1915.  It was to reach a maximum of 12,900 workers, not lagging far behind the factory at Spandau with 14,700 employees". 

Regards,

Michael.   

[assafx]

Thank you @Michael Haselgrovefor coming to my rescue for the second time.  I will ammend the table once Julian will send his remarks and corrections and will send it to the editor.

 

Assaf

[trajan]

15 hours ago, assafx said:

Thank you, once the kids will fall asleep i'll write him down. a quick check on amazon lists it as one of the books my wife will never let me buy... 170 $

 

Yes, that I understand... My copy was a self-ordered birthday present. It weighs a ton, and cost a fortune in Turkish Custom charges  - useful as a doorstop when not aking up space on the shelves!

 

13 hours ago, Michael Haselgrove said:

Julian,

I'm impressed with your recollection of the contents of the book!

Assaf,

I attach a photo taken from Rifle & Carbine 98 by Dieter Storz who, you will see, attributes the C marking as having been manufactured at Kassel.  The illustrated case is different from Assaf's in two respects.  Firstly, it doesn't have the four line marking used from April 1916 to indicate a bullet with a groove; this is of no significance to the question here.  However, secondly I note the C is stamped the other way round and I don't know if that makes any difference - probably not?

In case the background is of interest, at page 315 Dieter Storz wrote: "After the beginning of the war Prussia founded a new state-run ammunition factory in Kassel, which started operations on 1 March 1915.  It was to reach a maximum of 12,900 workers, not lagging far behind the factory at Spandau with 14,700 employees". 

Regards,

Michael.   

 

 

Thanks Michael! 

 

The book was always my immediate 'go-to' for these markings, but somewhere I think I have a German document on them - I will try to find it. I know that SS has dabbled in these things so perhaps he can contribute?  I don't know if there is any significance in the reversed 'C', but yes, the four-line marking does seem to be significant.

 

There is this also on Wiki.de., but I have no idea how accurate it is, and of course Assaf needs a 'hard-print' reference: 

 

https://www.google.de/search?ei=nKzMXtqdBqGXmwX8pZSABw&q=1+WK+Kassel+patronenhülsen&oq=1+WK+Kassel+patronenhülsen&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQA1DTcFixhwFg0pEBaABwAHgAgAHMAogB-QeSAQcwLjUuMC4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwja28Om6dDpAhWhy6YKHfwSBXAQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

Deutschland (12)

(? -1919)

Alle Laden, Montage und Verpackung von Munition fand in Spandau Arsenal. Friedenszeit Bodenstempel hatten das 2-stellige Herstellungsjahr bei 3 Uhr, Produktionsmonat um 9 Uhr und Content Fall Hersteller ( S für Spandau oder P für Polte) bei 6 Uhr. Wartime Bodenstempel hatten das 2-stellige Herstellungsjahr um 12 Uhr, Fall - Typen (S67 = Messing mit 67% Kupfer) bei 3 Uhr, Content Fall Hersteller bei 6 Uhr, und die Chargennummer bei 9 os 'Uhr.
Das Karton Etikett hatte drei Textzeilen. Die erste Zeile des Geschosses Typs hergestellt werden würde, und Magazinaufbau Verpackungsanlage ( Mf. Für Spandaus Munitionsfabrik ), die von dem Zeitpunkt der Montage gefolgt (im Format MM.TT.JJ; 2-digit - Monat, den Tag, und 2-stellige Jahr). Die zweite Zeile des Treib Hersteller (betreffenden P. für Spandauer Pulverfabrik oder Tr. Für die Powdermill bei Troisdorf). Die dritte Zeile aufgelistet das Modell der Primer ( ZDH oder zundhuetchen ), das Herstellungsdatum und den Hersteller; ein „X“ zwischen dem Primer - Typ und dem Herstellungsdatum angegeben es eine Art Grundierung mit einem niedrigen Quecksilbergehalt war.

• C Munitionsfabrik Cassel ( "Ammuntion Werk Cassel")
• S Spandau
• P Polen
• D. Königlich Sächsisch Arsenal ( "Royal Arsenal Sachsen") - Dresden , Sachsen .
• DM Karlsruhe , DM K Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik ( "German Metal Patronenfabrik") (1889-1896) - Karlsruhe, Baden, Deutschland. Es fing an , Mauser Gewehrmunition für die argentinische Armee im Jahr 1891 und die preußische Armee im Jahr 1893 durch kaufte Ludwig Loewe & Cie 1896 Teil bilden Metallpatronen AG (DWM). Die „DM“ Bodenstempel wurde von DWM bis Anfang des 20. Jahrhunderts.
• N & S Niebecker und Schumacher - Solingen , Deutschland.

[assafx]

I found an online PDF file from Waffen-Welt.de named: DiePatrone7.92x57

according to the file, C belongs to Munitionsfabrik Cassel.

 

btw any idea why Cassel and not Kassel?

 

Assaf

[trajan]

48 minutes ago, assafx said:

I found an online PDF file from Waffen-Welt.de named: DiePatrone7.92x57

according to the file, C belongs to Munitionsfabrik Cassel.

 

btw any idea why Cassel and not Kassel?

 

Assaf

 

I think that was the file I was looking for! Julian

 

There was a 'C' to 'K' changeover  in the late 19th-early 20th century. So, Coln (found on some WW1 98/05 made by Cito) became Koln; Compagnie became Kompagnie, Cassel became Kassel, etc. In the case of Cassel the official change was in 1926 - see: https://www.kassel.de/buerger/stadtgeschichte/lokales/von-cassel-zu-kassel.php -  "Erst 1926 genehmigte das preußische Staatsministerium den Beschluss der Stadtverordnetenversammlung vom 13. September, Cassel offiziell in Kassel umzubenennen."

 

Julian

 

[assafx]

2 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

I think that was the file I was looking for! Julian

 

There was a 'C' to 'K' changeover  in the late 19th-early 20th century. So, Coln (found on some WW1 98/05 made by Cito) became Koln; Compagnie became Kompagnie, Cassel became Kassel, etc. In the case of Cassel the official change was in 1926 - see: https://www.kassel.de/buerger/stadtgeschichte/lokales/von-cassel-zu-kassel.php -  "Erst 1926 genehmigte das preußische Staatsministerium den Beschluss der Stadtverordnetenversammlung vom 13. September, Cassel offiziell in Kassel umzubenennen."

 

Julian

 

Fantstic!

we got this sorted, thank you guys !

Assaf

 

P.s if you failed to download the file,let me know i will email it to you.

[assafx]

Good morning,

 

this time its the case more than the headstamp.

I can read N 15 VII but the case is either cut below the neck or is it a different kind of cartridge?

 

Thank You,

Assaf

[shippingsteel]

It should be a .303 case being a rimmed cartridge with that head stamp. Plainly stands out as being Mk VII British made in 1915. Kings Norton comes too mind as the maker but I will have to check the books to see if there are any other possibilities.?

 

Cheers, SS

[shippingsteel]

OK so I think it is certainly a .303 British case that has separated at the shoulder of the case. Length at shoulder should be roughly 46mm so that matches with the scale provided I do believe. The maker is again almost certainly Kings Norton with the abbreviated KN as the heavy serif shown on the letter N is kind of unmistakable. I think there is also a shadow of the K nearly visible so I am happy to go with that identification.

 

Cheers, SS

[assafx]

i was thinking King Norton too (Tony's book is at home).

there isn't a trace of a K and i looked over with a microscope...it might have been erased with time and damage.

 

Thank you

Assaf

[trajan]

All credit to your eye-sight guys! I can see the VII but not much else... There again, I only have Ottoman cases as reference samples...

[shippingsteel]

Here is an example Kings Norton headstamp dated 1908 (08) in Mk VI for comparison. A bit blurry but you can see the heavy serif on the letter N which matches well with the sample case. The styling of the headstamp and positioning of stampings also identify this case as .303 British made by Kings Norton.

 

Cheers, SS 

[assafx]

I have a WWI example, i need to look for it.

I just had alook at TonyE's book.

according to him, N belongs to Nobel Explosives Ltd, Glasgow.

I have never seen such an example to compare the font.

 

Assaf