Holger Kotthaus Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 Origin of Q.F.12 PR. 8 CWT., 10/1916 at Ngominji – 11/1916 Lupembe?!? Last week, remaining parts of a British Q.F.12 PR. 8 CWT. were found at Lupembe / Njombe district / Tanzania. (Do not allow to confuse; the gun barrel isn´t installed upside down) As far as I know, this gun was captured on 31st October 1916 by Germans at Ngominji and lost again two weeks later, on 14th November at Lupembe. A German war diary mentioned, that these captured guns are Navy guns from the British cruiser HMS Hyacinth. Can anybody confirm this Information? Regards Holger Kotthaus Quote On the 29th October a small post at Ngominyi was compelled to surrender to a very superior strength of the enemy after a resolute and gallant defence. Two naval 12 pounder guns lost here were retaken by us in the course of operations almost immediately afterwards. Captain Clerk, commanding the post, was killed. Original source: http://www.25throyalfusiliers.co.uk/east_africa_despatch_3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 Holger Link to Hyacinth's log: http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Hyacinth.htm You will find entries for a 12 pounder carriage and ammunition and a unknown field gun in the October 1916 logs. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 11 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2017 Terry, Thanks for this helpful reference. I found also in the log of the HMS Hyacinth the following: Quote 14 September 1915 From Port Natal To Zanzibar Lat -17.6, Long 40.3 12 prs. guns crews at loader. G.L. at 6’ loader. Refitting wind sails, etc. 12 October 1915 Mombasa Lat -4.05, Long 39.68 Making boats covers, dismounting 12 pr. guns, painting ship, etc. 8 May 1916 Zanzibar Lat -6.2, Long 39.2 5:35am: Commenced coaling. 5:50am: MANICA sailed. 6:45am: CHILDERS arrived. 12:40pm: CLAN SUTHERLAND arrived. 4:00pm: Disembarked 100 rounds of shrapnel. 4:55pm: KHALIFA arrived. 5:00pm: Embarked 100 rounds of lyddite. 5:28pm: CHILDERS sailed. 16 May 1916 On Southern Patrol Lat -9.9, Long 40.4 Examining 12 pr. mountings, rattling down rigging, refitting fenders, turning out blocks, making boats canopy, repairing windsails, etc. 14 October 1916 Kilwa Kisiwani Lat -8.97, Long 39.55 9:15am: Landed 2 Midshipmen with 2 Lewis guns crews for service on shore. Transferred Field Gun Carriage and ? to (Whaler H.M.S) CHILDERS. 9:50am: CHILDERS sailed. 10:30am: Landed fire engine. 31 October 1916 Zanzibar Lat -6.2, Long 39.2 8:00am: Disembarked 12 pr. gun carriage and ammunition. 4:20pm: S.S. GLENDENE berthed alongside. The last record from the 31. October 1916 couldn´t match really with the 12 PR Guns at Ngominyi, because Captain Clerk and his force are encircles by Captain Wintgens since the 26. October 1916. In my opinion the entry from 12th October 1915 in Mombasa listed the most obvious explanation for this 12 PR 8 CWT Gun. The German source mentioned this loss, because of no ammunition and to less porters for this Gun and I assume the British winner installed this Gun later near the Lutheran Lupembe church. The Pastor told the Gun was at that time directly under the tree of the photo below. Regards Holger Kotthaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushfighter Posted 12 July , 2017 Share Posted 12 July , 2017 Holger Greetings My interpretation of events is here: http://www.kaiserscross.com/188001/372664.html Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 12 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2017 Harry, Many thanks for remembering me about your excellent written article. I also read in the past the discussion in the GWF: Ten years ago I came across with statements about two British Navy Guns from the HMS Hyacinth which were used at Ngominyi. The German Sergeant d.R. Pfeiffer, platoon-leader from the 8. F.K. reported in his War diary: Quote “October 31, 1916. In those days, our weapons have had a great success. On the Ubena Street near Ngominji we came across a fortified camp with a radio station and 2 guns, as well as about 150 riflles. On the 26th of October we surrounded with 300 rifles and six machine guns, and now a hot battle broke out. . . . The next morning, at five o'clock, the attack began. In the meantime, we were hurrying through the hiding-place, and with `hurra´ and blazing horns we rode the steep mountain. A great deal of noise and shouting is the chief thing in the storm, so that the Askari does not come to their senses. I've had again great luck and took with my platoon both enemy guns - naval guns from the English cruiser Hyacinth. In the period of 1 ½ hours the whole hostile position was in our hands. . . . Original German online source, (translated): http://digi.landesbibliothek.at/viewer/image/AC10724635/95/ Another German source confirmed then the calibre with the British calibre 7,6-cm (12-pounder 8-cwt QF) Quote “. . . .Our artillery had been completely consumed, the Battery Vogel had had to destroy and bury one of the guns taken at Ngominji, since only 100 shots were available for both, because of the ever-pressing carrier. After the consumption in the various battles, only 30 shells remained. Lupembe could not be conquered; but they were sent as farewell greetings to the English positions, as well as seventy storeys, which had been taken from our own South West African protection group, against the original owner. Of the ones captured at Ngominji, they followed the other 30, but they used to go other ways than the gunner assigned them, since they were too small a millimetre in the calibre. This former English artillery was also destroyed; a revolver cannon had already been destroyed . . . “ Original text source (translated): Wilhelm Arning; Kampf um Deutsch - Ostafrika Chris Dale started at the AHF last year with the question about the gun-type which are then and still today at Lupembe: Artillery gun near Njombe in Southern Tanzania https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=225705&sid=00b8f4079c3a29c01a088f7159af6828 In my opinion a: 12-pounder 8-cwt QF Royal Navy Landing Gun, together with the other results the same gun with the current location at Lupembe was used before at Ngominyi. Furthermore, the indication in the log from the HMS Hyacinth, that 12-pounder guns were already dismounted in November 1915 in Mombasa, I asked myself if the photo below showed the usage of these guns during the fights at Mombo on the Northern railway, near Korogwe in May 1916? But I don’t know how many 12-pounder were used during the east African campaign by the British forces. Original photo source: https://www.illustratedfirstworldwar.com/item/past-pangani-river-picturesque-scenes-of-the-british-operations-in-the-iln0-1916-1014-0005-001/# Regards Holger Kotthaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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