ralphjd Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Any kind soul in the Pompey area available to obtain a headstone photo of 29965 Thomas Butterworth 23rd Bde RFA from my village, just discovered him , sadly declared insane 1915 and died 1917. Thanks. Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 There is an image on findagrave.com: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=butterworth&GSiman=1&GScid=2367320&GRid=57625778& Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Mark. That is great, thanks a bunch. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Ralph if you have any problems with that I live a short walk from the cemetery and can visit almost any day. I did some work a while ago on the causes of death of men with war graves in the cemetery and I was unable to allocate a cause of death for this man.If you have any information about his cause of death I would be grateful. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 According to this newspaper article he died of 'wounds' - there's also a picture of him http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000272%2f19171215%2f026 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Got the "insane" bit from the Register of Soldiers Effects dis 19 12 1915 . Ralph. Craig. No access to the site you quoted, any chance you could post the details, be much obliged. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Interesting - the Register of effects appears to say that he was discharged "on account of morals". and yet his death is recorded 2 years later in the Manchester newspapers as being of wounds. Discharge on account of morals and death in a mental hospital would normally suggest GPI, I don't know of a separate Portsmouth Military Asylum, but it might have been a unit within the city mental hospital, St James. Records of admission and discharge are stated to be in the Portsmouth archives. I'm not sure whether they will be sealed, but can check. I am now intrigued. I suppose a relative, possibly his wife might have wanted his death reported but had given a false cause of death, or the wounds if real might have been self inflicted or the result of an incident. I will email the cemetery office as well. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Curiouser and etc etc etc where does the "on account of morals" ? appear ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 I'm not 100% sure whether it is a discharge reason - it's something related to the payment being made to the wife but after that I can't make out the rest. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117462_0040-00265?pid=18113&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DMxg322%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsfn%3Dthomas%26gsfn_x%3D0%26gsln%3Dbutterworth%26gsln_x%3D0%26MSAV%3D1%26MSV%3D0%26uidh%3Dyvc%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D18113%26recoff%3D3%204%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Mxg322&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 It is a comment in the Soldiers Effects Register. Clip is from Ancestry.co.uk Soldiers Effects Register. Interestingly he has two entries in this register, and Ancestry have recorded his date of discharge as a date of death. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 10 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2017 (edited) Ah. Did not spot that remark , don't think it isthe word "morals" though, could be wrong obviously. I think it is an abbreviation of maintenance Edited 10 July , 2017 by ralphjd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyH Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 I think the R.H. column is just saying "on account of Maintenance" twice? One for each payment. BillyH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 1 minute ago, keithmroberts said: It is a comment in the Soldiers Effects Register. Clip is from Ancestry.co.uk Soldiers Effects Register. Interestingly he has two entries in this register, and Ancestry have recorded his date of discharge as a date of death. Keith The original entry comes due to him being discharged insane, the payment of any monies was handed over to the effects branch by the RP. The War gratuity has then been paid on the same entry. The second record seems to have been an additional amount which was due and they created a new record instead of using the previous one for some reason, probably a clerical error and the record was later linked. Ancestry have transcribed a lot of discharge dates as death dates, for some reason. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 10 July , 2017 Share Posted 10 July , 2017 Actually, I could be misreading it - it might just be "on account of maintenance." Although the payment seems to be divided between his widow and the clerk to the guardians. I suppose she might have been in the Portsmouth workhouse. I have emailed the cemeteries office in the hope that they might have something recorded, and will have to go to the archives tomorrow to see whether I can access records for St James, to confirm the location, and possibly also the Portsmouth workhouse. Keith Edit - posts crossed - there is a dot of the sort that is above an i which supports the "maintenance" reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 11 July , 2017 Share Posted 11 July , 2017 I was able to examine the Creed register for the Portsmouth workhouse today. There were two entries relating to this chap's son, also called Thomas Butterworth dob 11/12/1913 who was recorded as both in and out of the workhouse on 4/10/1916 andf again admitted and discharged on 10/10/1916. There are no entries in the Creed register for either the father Thomas, or mother Esther. The baptism record for the child at St George's Portsea on 3 Feb 1914 , gave the date of birth shows the father Thomas as a labourer, and the family address as 94 Murray's Court. I can't place that address at present but presumably it was within the neighbourhood of that church, close to The Hard. The son Thomas died in Portsmouth in 1985. I was unable to check the records for St James Hospital, which was presumably the hospital that included the military asylum, but the archivist at the library is going to look out the record set and check whether there are any restrictions on access. That will probably depend on whether the volume or set contains more recent records. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 20 July , 2017 Share Posted 20 July , 2017 A very helpful Portsmouth archivist has come up with the following. it looks as if there is no more to find, locally Keith I've had a look at some of the St James records and have discovered from the Civil (admissions) Register that Thomas Butterworth was first admitted on 4/4/1916. He had been transferred from Prestwick County Asylum on the authority of a Col. G. M. Goffin, Commander in Chief of Western Command and two visitors of the County Asylum at Prestwick. I looked up Prestwick - there's one in Northumberland and another near Glasgow. I imagine it's the former. He's listed as married and his death is recorded as 30/11/1917, as you already know. Interestingly, below the heading 'Case Book' the following was written: 'Aug 29 1917 Transferred to Service Class, Nov(?) [This is hard to read']. I checked online and it seems that soldiers and sailors who had served in the war were sometimes transferred from pauper status to service status if they had been admitted to an asylum with a mental illness. This meant that they could be admitted as private patients with conditions. This is a link to the relevant page for your information: https://crichtonroyalproject.wordpress.com/tag/service-patients/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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