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Remembered Today:

MGC Bns & Coys


Guest Ian Bowbrick

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Hopefully one of you emmagee researchers out there will know the answer to this!

When the Machine Gun Corps was formed into MG Battalions in March 1918 were the component MG Coys organised into alphabetical Coys in order of increasing number :wacko:

eg. I know that 51st MG Bn was made up of four MG Coys. The highest number Coy, in this case 232 MG Coy became D Coy 51st MG Bn.

Was this general across all MG Bns?

Ian

:)

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Ian

From the Divisional histories I've seen when the MGC Battalions were formed the original companies became A, B, C, and D and followed the original numerical sequence. However this is not always the case, 33rd Bn MGC according to Hutchinson, disbanded one of the original companies apparently under the impression that only three companies were required but new instructions were received the Division reformed the disbanded company but mixed up the original Brigade Companies when forming the companies within the Battalion. If you get my drift.

It is also worth remembering that a lot of the Divisions were heavily engaged the in the German offensive of March 1918 when this restructuring of the MGC was taking place and according to the Divisional histories a lot of the amalgamations were not completed until a later date.

I know the New Zealand machine gun companies with the NZ Bn MGC were named companies rather than lettered companies.

If you require further information on this I have been compiling a list although it is not complete yet.

Geoff

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Geoff,

Many thanks for that - there is always an exception isn't there!!

Thanks also for the kind offer - if I might call on you again, appreciate it.

Many thanks,

Ian :)

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I think you will find that most Divisions formed their MG Battalions in February 1918, i.e. before the March offensive.

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Paul's right;

In general, most Bns formed in February and the first week of March 18 - but it wasn't a uniform process.

Most Bns formed in place in France did so in Feb 18; but some (for example, units which had recently returned from Italy) formed later, as did Bns in 'other theatres'.

By means of examples:

5 Bn: Formed 26 April

75 Bn: Formed 3 May

14, 16 & 59 Bns were initially formed in Mar 18, but reduced to cadre in April/May 18 and reconstituted in the summer. (save 16 Bn, which was redispersed to infantry bns)

And yes - Bns had companies identified as 'A' to 'D' rather than the numerics.

To confuse matters....

'A' Bn MGC was formed in France on 21 May 18 fm 221, 262, 264, 272 and 271 Coys (yup, know that's 5!) but was redesignated '30 Bn' in June.

B, C, D, E, F Bns were formed from 'dehorsed' Yeomanry in Egypt in April (B-E) and July (F). Redesignated 100-104 Bns in August 18.

Plans to raise G & H Bns were shelved after the March Offensive.

Hope that helps....! :blink:

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Phil,

All I can say, apart fromthanks is, :blink::wacko:

As always the British Army complicate things.........one tradition they will never lose!

Ian

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What was the logic of reorganising MGs first into battalions and then into a Corps rather than, say, simply decentralising them to infantry battalions?

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I would assumme the logic in creating the Machine Gun Corps on 14th October 1915 was due to several reasons, but two spring to mind:

1) To provide a centralised organisation for training recruits and posting trained men to machine gun units rather than relying on ad-hoc arrangements that had existed previously.

2) The realisation of the importance of medium machine-guns on the battlefield as a distinct weapon and to co-ordinate the development of machine-gun tactics that would be used later in the war, such as supporting "barrage" fire during attacks or fixed line shoots, in a similar way to how an artillery battery would operate.

Originally, the machine gun companies/squadrons were formed from the "brigaded" machine gun sections of infantry battalions/cavalry regiments. Brigade Machine Gun Officers had been a feature in most formations from the summer of 1915, and it was their responsibility to co-ordinate training and operations. With the posting of a fourth M.G. Company to Infantry Divisions in 1917, the logical progression would be to concentrate the four companies as a battalion, for administrative and tactical purposes.

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Andrew puts it beautifully! (I would probably have cited gawd knows how many references, letters, etc, etc...

I still remember the buzz of seeing the original letter from French to CIGS supporting the formation of a separate MGC.. and the one from Haig saying 'You can't have any of my trained machine gunners to send them back to Blighty to form this Corps, good idea as it is..!" [OK, perhaps I paraphrased rather there...]

But just to underline and hair-split a tad with Hedley;

First, there were Vickers sections in battalions.

Then, in October 1915, each Brigade's machine gun sections were centralised to form Brigade Machine Gun Companies. A fourth company was formed to be the 'independent' 'divisional' company.

In February/March 1918, each division's MG Coys were centralised as MG Bns.

There was a 'Machine Gun Corps' from the go [October 1915], it didn't evolve from the battalions.

Fascinating fact from the archives.. there is paperwork in the Tank Museum papers from an officer claiming he originated the crossed Vickers cap badge for the MGC. Nice, but untrue. The Motor Machine Gun Service originated the Vickers badge - the MGC removed the 'MMG' scroll and hey presto.

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In the AIF each Brigade's Machine Gun Companies formed into Battalions for their respective division, such as

1st, 2nd & 3rd Companies formed the 1st MG Battalion

5th, 6th & 7th Companies formed the 2nd MG Battalion

9th, 10th & 11th Companies formed the 3rd MG Battalion

4th, 12th & 13th Companies formed the 4th MG Battalion

8th, 14th & 15th Companies formed the 5th MG Battalion

Even when they were formed into Battalions the companies within the MG Battalion did tend to serve with their original brigade though this was not always the case.

I think in the Light Horse, each LH Brigade retained their own Machine Gun Squadrons, but I'll have to check this.

Cheers

Andrew

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No worries Andrew-

You're right. 1,2 & 3 Aus MG Sqns were all formed in July 1916 from their respective LH Bdes; 4 Sqn was formed in Jan 17 from the 4th Bde.

3rd and 4th were part of the Imperial Mounted Division (3rd from Jan 17, 4th from formation) until Aug 17 when they went to the Australian Mounted Division in Jun 17.

There's a useful site (but beware - some of the MG Coy dates we suspect are well, suspect) at:

http://www.unsw.adfa.edu.au/rmallett/Machine_Gun.htm

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