Royal Engineers soldier abandoned in Gallipoli

[SapperBoo]

Still a long shot but the similarities with the experiences of 13 Base Park Company are quite striking.

 

“A lot of them died, and the ones that survived moved on. They left my father behind for dead, and he said if it hadn’t have been for a little Arab boy bringing him water to drink, he would have died.”

 

There were 12 men in the detachment, 6 died and 3 were wounded.

 

The men all died on 20 July 1915, five are buried at the Lancashire Landing Cemetery:

 

Sapper           COLES          A E      26647

Sapper           DERRICOTT J          28637

2nd Corporal McILROY       W        17273

Sapper           RAKE             F C      17250

Corporal         WILLIAMS     W        11399

 

The sixth is remembered on the Helles Memorial (no known grave).

 

Sapper           WALKER       S J      22270

 

Three of the six who lived were injured.

 

Clearly this was a catastrophic event for such a small detachment.  One of the injured left for dead by his colleagues who had survived does sound plausible.  The ‘little Arab boy’ could have been one of the Egyptian Labour Corps who were helping unload ships, probably Arab, possibly young and short.

 

This was such a catastrophic event for the Company the War Diary may name names.  It is available at the National Archive but TNA but not for down load (yet?).

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7359993

 

It is also available at the RE Museum

http://www.re-museum.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Library-War-Diaries-WW1.pdf

 

Another possible source of information could be the book ‘Gardens of Hell: Battles of the Gallipoli Campaign, 1915-1916’ by Patrick Gariepy.  The bibliography includes a reference to “Diaries and Personal Accounts’ of Cpl William Williams, 13 Base Park Company RE. Dave Russell – the same Cpl W Williams who died on 20 July 1915?

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jm9YAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA339&lpg=PA339&dq=13+base+park+company&source=bl&ots=3_pe6wGlBb&sig=vHX99jsHlWnHUPy4hr1rqmi0z68&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuqb72yuDUAhXKhrQKHfjGB14Q6AEIOzAE#v=onepage&q=13%20base%20park%20company&f=false

 

Do you have any record of when he was first considered missing?  If it is before 20 July 1915 it is not going to be the incident described above.

[John_Hartley]

It may help in limiting the search if we can pin down the cholera outbreak. It must have affected several units so the timing should be in the records somewhere. That said, as far as I can recall, there's no mention of it relating to 6th Manchesters - although there's frequent mention of men reporting sick with severe cases of jaundice and/or dysentery, in the early autumn.

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

It may help in limiting the search if we can pin down the cholera outbreak. It must have affected several units so the timing should be in the records somewhere. That said, as far as I can recall, there's no mention of it relating to 6th Manchesters - although there's frequent mention of men reporting sick with severe cases of jaundice and/or dysentery, in the early autumn.

There was apparently a big outbreak of Cholera in July 1915 at Cape Helles for which they established a temporary hospital at Rest Gully.

Craig

[John_Hartley]

37 minutes ago, SapperBoo said:

One of the injured left for dead by his colleagues who had survived does sound plausible

No, I'm afraid it doesnt sound at all plausible to me.

 

It flies in the face of everything we know about the evacuation of casualties by the RAMC. They simply didnt leave men.

[SapperBoo]

12 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

No, I'm afraid it doesnt sound at all plausible to me.

 

It flies in the face of everything we know about the evacuation of casualties by the RAMC. They simply didnt leave men.

I am not saying he was left behind by the RAMC or the British Army.  I am suggesting he was left by the 3 Sappers of 13 Base Company RE who survived the shelling on the 20 July 1915.  Six of their colleagues killed, 3 injured (and we don't know how badly), their officers on an island across the Aegean Sea and they though he was dead.  Perhaps the Arab of the Egyptian Labour Corps noticed he was alive, gave him water and alerted the RAMC.  My proposition only works if he was one of the 6 men who survived the incident.

Edited 28 June , 2017 by SapperBoo

[SapperBoo]

27 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

It may help in limiting the search if we can pin down the cholera outbreak. It must have affected several units so the timing should be in the records somewhere. That said, as far as I can recall, there's no mention of it relating to 6th Manchesters - although there's frequent mention of men reporting sick with severe cases of jaundice and/or dysentery, in the early autumn.

The reference in my first post includes "During this time the unit strength was greatly depleted due to sickness, falling at one time to 42 all ranks." this is out of the unit strength of 78.  I know this is not 'the whole Battalion' but the level of sickness did warrant a mention.

[Guest]

I am not sure why 13 Base Company RE stands out as a candidate unit. Every unit in the British Army at Gallipoli had men killed, wounded*, missing, wounded and missing etc. It was universal. "A lot of them died" probably applied to most units at Gallipoli.  In addition every unit had men who were hors de combat due to sickness. 

 

* 'wounded' rather than 'injured'. Wounded means incapacitated by an instrument of war. 'Injured' covers other means eg. a man would be wounded by a bullet, bomb, or shrapnel but injured twisting his ankle or being kicked by his own horse. The medical stats separated the two.

 

Separately the chances of conflation are high. I don't doubt that the subject served in Egypt, served in the Dardanelles, was sick and hospitalised and was helped at some stage by an Arab boy and was separated from his unit for 6 months. I suspect some of these events may have happened at different times and over the years have become conflated I note that the subject was recalling events many years after they happened having barely spoken about them for decades. Where we have recorded memories of old soldiers it is not unusual to find large discrepancies between their recall and other records of events made at the time. Memories are fickle things. Memory formation, memory storage and memory recall are rather susceptible to a number of factors, particularly when one is subjected to high stress such as warfare. Added to this there is evidence that poor diet, particularly diets deficient in certain vitamins, and debilitating sickness can impact memories at all three stages. 

 

Reality Check. Some reference points that might help provide a reality check (all from the Official History of the War: Medical Services -  Casualties and Medical Statistics.

 

For every 1,000 British Army other ranks who served in the Dardanelles there were    586 Battle Casualties

For every 1,000 British Army other ranks who served in the Dardanelles there were 1,232 Non-battle Casualties

For every 1,000 British Army other ranks who served in the Dardanelles there were 1,093 admissions to Hospital as 'Sick' 

 

Which means there were more Non-battle casualties than men served. i.e just about everyone was sick at one stage (and hospitalised) (on average) and many were hospitalised more than once. 

 

For Non-battle Casualties:

87% were sick and recovered

11% were injured and recovered

2% died of injury or disease

 

145,000 British Army all ranks were admitted to Hospital as Non-Battle casualties. 141,000 returned to duty

 

Cholera.

Only 7 men in the British Army at Gallipoli were admitted to Hospital for cholera (Table 14 page 206). All 7 returned to duty. According to Official History of the War: Medical Services Vol IV Gallipoli etc..(page 59) most men were inoculated against cholera (100% in the case of the 29th Div). Diary evidence suggests high 98-99% in other units. In the 29th Div there were no recorded cases. the 42nd Div (the other Division that spent most time on Cape Helles recorded widespread inoculation against cholera in late July 1915. Brigade and Battalion diaries. 1/5th Bn Manchester Regt (TF) for example inoculated 802 Other Ranks over three days in July 1915. Etsablishment was around 850 ORs; the difference can be explained by casualties to date.

 

If he had cholera, it seems statistically unlikely that it was at Gallipoli. Personally speaking the evidence suggests cholera was very uncommon. Again I wonder if the story has grown over time.

 

All the above is from the Official History Medical Services and relates to the British Army only. It is possible that cholera broke out among other troops or labourers or Camp followers. It would be interesting to explore the alleged outbreak at Cape Helles.

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 June , 2017 by Guest

[SapperBoo]

6 minutes ago, QGE said:

I am not sure why 13 Base Company RE stands out as a candidate unit. Every unit in the British Army at Gallipoli had men killed, wounded*, missing, wounded and missing etc. It was universal. "A lot of them died" probably applied to most units at Gallipoli.  In addition every unit had men who were hors de combat due to sickness. 

 

* 'wounded' rather than 'injured'. Wounded means incapacitated by an instrument of war. 'Injured' covers other means eg. a man would be wounded by a bullet, bomb, or shrapnel but injured twisting his ankle or being kicked by his own horse. The medical stats separated the two.

 

Separately the chances of conflation are high. I don't doubt that the subject served in Egypt, served in the Dardanelles, was sick and hospitalised and was helped at some stage by an Arab boy and was separated from his unit for 6 months. I suspect some of these events may have happened at different times and over the years have become conflated I note that the subject was recalling events many years after they happened having barely spoken about them for decades. Where we have recorded memories of old soldiers it is not unusual to find large discrepancies between their recall and other records of events made at the time. Memories are fickle things. Memory formation, memory storage and memory recall are rather susceptible to a number of factors, particularly when one is subjected to high stress such as warfare. Added to this there is evidence that poor diet, particularly diets deficient in certain vitamins, and debilitating sickness can impact memories at all three stages. 

 

 

 

 

I am not suggesting I am right only it might be a further line of enquiry.  Initially I was drawn to it by the title "Royal Engineers soldier abandoned in Gallipoli" and when I read the post it reminded me of the story of the 2 Ordnance Survey men I am researching who died at W Beach.

 

1.  "abandoned"  - 12 men were left behind at W Beach when the Company withdrew to Mudros

2.  "load and unload these ships" - 13 Base Park Company was employed mainly in the lighterage of equipment from store-ships

3.  "whole battalion went down with cholera" - During (summer 1915) the unit strength was greatly depleted due to sickness, falling at one time to 42 all ranks.

4.  "little Arab boy" -  The average daily handling of material was 885 tons, this was only possible with the help of large working parties from the Egyptian Labour Corps.

5.  "left for dead" - just offering an alternative interpretation i.e. left for dead by his colleagues not the RAMC.

 

[John_Hartley]

1 hour ago, SapperBoo said:

I am suggesting he was left by the 3 Sappers of 13 Base Company RE who survived the shelling on the 20 July 1915. 

I'm afraid it still doesnt work. According to the original story, most of the unit had fallen ill to cholera, not shelling - and he is abandoned in hospital. Almost inherent in the unit's name, 12th Base Coy would be at the Helles base. This is not an isolated spot where one might abandon a comrade. It's in the thick of things where, whether wounded or ill, he would have been seen by the RAMC. The fact that this unit was not isolated is confirmed by the burials at Lancashire Landing - effectively "ground zero" for the initial landings and, even by the evacuation, still very much the centre of things.

 

I am, of course, not saying that he was not part of this unit - only that there is no evidence to suggest he was there any more than any other RE unit - and, indeed, less, as this tiny unit's casualties came from shellfire, not cholera. The personal papers you mention earlier would be almost bound to mention him, as it was such a unit. Do we know where they are located (or do we know what happened to Pat Gariepy's archive after he died)?

Edited 28 June , 2017 by John_Hartley

[John_Hartley]

40 minutes ago, QGE said:

Where we have recorded memories of old soldiers it is not unusual to find large discrepancies between their recall and other records of events made at the time.

I hesitate to remind contributors of an old thread discussing Harry Patch's recollections. Specifically, the old boy was very confident in recalling a particular date and the deaths of specific comrades. Yet an examination of the facts confirm that they were not in action, as described, that day or for several days around, not were there any fatalities that matched the three men he said were killed. His is a similar recollection to this case - a man not talking about the war for decades until shortly before a death in old age.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, SapperBoo said:

I am not suggesting I am right only it might be a further line of enquiry.  Initially I was drawn to it by the title "Royal Engineers soldier abandoned in Gallipoli" and when I read the post it reminded me of the story of the 2 Ordnance Survey men I am researching who died at W Beach.

 

1.  "abandoned"  - 12 men were left behind at W Beach when the Company withdrew to Mudros

2.  "load and unload these ships" - 13 Base Park Company was employed mainly in the lighterage of equipment from store-ships

3.  "whole battalion went down with cholera" - During (summer 1915) the unit strength was greatly depleted due to sickness, falling at one time to 42 all ranks.

4.  "little Arab boy" -  The average daily handling of material was 885 tons, this was only possible with the help of large working parties from the Egyptian Labour Corps.

5.  "left for dead" - just offering an alternative interpretation i.e. left for dead by his colleagues not the RAMC.

 

 

 

1. No one was "abandoned". As John has pointed a number of times out this simply did not happen. They were left behind probably because they were too ill to be moved and moved later. All the hospitals were evacuated weeks before the final evacuation. The idea that men were left behind is imaginative to say the least. Where is the evidence? 

2. Every unit was involved in loading and unloading simply because there were not enough labourers. Every unit in the 'Rest Trenches' had to send hundreds of men on fatigues every day; many loading and unloading stores. Searching 'fatigues' in the war diaries produces hundreds of its. 

3. No battalion went down with cholera according to the Medical Services history. Most units halved in number for other reasons. The New Army formations saw around two thirds casualties in the first two weeks, so a halving of numbers was, relatively speaking, far from extreme. 

 

I simply still do not see anything that relates to 13 Base Company that is different to any other unit, RE or otherwise... MG

Edited 28 June , 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

Since the man was obviously ill, perhaps he was confused about where he was, what happened etc, and he may well have been telling the truth as he remembered it?

 

Mike

[John_Hartley]

Mike - a fair point, mate.

 

But I still find it difficult to explain why a man, even if ill for six months, made no contact with his family, nor seemingly, did the staff at whichever hospital he was a patient at on his behalf.

[SapperBoo]

2 minutes ago, QGE said:

 

 

1. No one was "abandoned". As John has pointed a number of times out this simply did not happen. They were left behind probably because they were too ill to be moved and moved later. All the hospitals were evacuated weeks before the final evacuation. The idea that men were left behind is imaginative to say the least. Where is the evidence? 

2. Every unit was involved in loading and unloading simply because there were not enough labourers. Every unit in the 'Rest Trenches' had to send hundreds of men on fatigues every day; many loading and unloading stores. 

3. No battalion went down with cholera according to the Medical Services history. Most units halved in number

 

I simply still do not see anything that relates to 13 Base Company that is different to any other unit, RE or otherwise... MG

You asked why 13 Base Company RE stands out as a candidate unit and I was telling you why it stands out for me.  Abandoned is not my word it is a word from the original post.  I didn't say 'cholera' I was quoting the reference which said 'illness'.  OK this is not stand out for you.  Which RE haystack do you suggest?  If the diary was on line I would have bought it by now.

 

[SapperBoo]

15 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

I'm afraid it still doesnt work. According to the original story, most of the unit had fallen ill to cholera, not shelling - and he is abandoned in hospital. Almost inherent in the unit's name, 12th Base Coy would be at the Helles base. This is not an isolated spot where one might abandon a comrade. It's in the thick of things where, whether wounded or ill, he would have been seen by the RAMC. The fact that this unit was not isolated is confirmed by the burials at Lancashire Landing - effectively "ground zero" for the initial landings and, even by the evacuation, still very much the centre of things.

 

I am, of course, not saying that he was not part of this unit - only that there is no evidence to suggest he was there any more than any other RE unit - and, indeed, less, as this tiny unit's casualties came from shellfire, not cholera. The personal papers you mention earlier would be almost bound to mention him, as it was such a unit. Do we know where they are located?

The book reference was discovered by a search.  I assume the original material is held by the man mentioned in the reference, Dave Russell.  I was/am sort of hoping the author of the book, Patrick Gariepy might be a forum pal.  I still think the best option to disprove my proposal is the War Diary for 13 Base Park Company.  The death of 6 men on the same day was such an unusual event for this type of unit it may have warranted a special mention including the names of the dead and injured.  I think these 6 may be the only men of the Company who died in WW1. 

[Guest]

Just now, SapperBoo said:

You asked why 13 Base Company RE stands out as a candidate unit and I was telling you why it stands out for me.  Abandoned is not my word it is a word from the original post.  I didn't say 'cholera' I was quoting the reference which said 'illness'.  OK this is not stand out for you.  Which RE haystack do you suggest?  If the diary was on line I would have bought it by now.

 

 

The best candidate unit in my view is 13th Signals Company because

 

1. The date the unit touched Alexandria are a match +/- 1 day. No other RE units match his dates or even come close. Medal Rolls often differ from diaries by one or two days as units sometimes took more than a day to disembark and sometimes the last date is applied to all and sometimes the first dat is applied. This is based on transcribing dozens of medal rolls and cross checking them with diaries and published histories. .

2. He was later in a signals unit rather than a Field Company so Signals is a good back-fit. Signals needed specialist skills 

3. The 13th Div was annihilated, although this was not unique to this formation. 

 

I can tell you he is not mentioned in any of the RE diaries that are available online. (see my prev posts for the lists) as I have read them all. Twice. This does not mean he did not serve in one of them. it simply reflects the fact that Other Ranks rarely get mentioned by name. I would estimates that less than a fraction of a percent of British ORs were ever mentioned. Trying to find him in one of the RE diaries while possible seems highly improbable. Having transcribed every Battalion and Brigade diary for Gallipoli - well over 200 diaries -  I believe it is an informed view. Others may differ. 

 

MG

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, SapperBoo said:

 The death of 6 men on the same day was such an unusual event for this type of unit it may have warranted a special mention including the names of the dead and injured.  I think these 6 may be the only men of the Company who died in WW1. 

 

This was far from unusual. The area was being shelled constantly. The main difference between Gallipoli and almost any other Theatre of war was that the whole ground was within range of the enemy artillery throughout. There are several hundred diary references to this and it is repeated in most publish unit histories. It didnt matter how big or small a unit was, a large calibre shell could randomly hit a group of men at any time, and often did. The Turks could shoot off the map so to speak as the coatsline, piers, jetties, harbours etc were of course fixed.  By shelling these critical fixed points the Turks would have a high probability of hitting something.  When aeroplanse landed on the airstrip they had about a minute to get under cover before the incoming shellfire started. This was located a few hundred yrds from 13th Base Company RE. 

 

MG

Edited 28 June , 2017 by Guest

[SapperBoo]

1 minute ago, QGE said:

 

This was far from unusual. The area was being shelled constantly. The main difference between Gallipoli and almost any other Theatre of war was that the whole ground was within range of the enemy artillery throughout. There are several hundred diary references to this and it is repeated in most publish unit histories. MG

"this type of unit" Could you identify any other Base Park Company who lost 6 men on the same day or any other 13 Base Park Company death?

[John_Hartley]

By the by, Rachael has been on this quest for quite a while - posting to Rootschat back in 2009, where she uploaded a photo of him in uniform and on horseback. Does it help?

 

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=402125.9

[SapperBoo]

8 minutes ago, QGE said:

 

The best candidate unit in my view is 13th Signals Company because

 

1. The date the unit touched Alexandria are a match +/- 1 day. No other RE units match his dates or even come close. Medal Rolls often differ from diaries by one or two days as units sometimes took more than a day to disembark and sometimes the last date is applied to all and sometimes the first dat is applied. This is based on transcribing dozens of medal rolls and cross checking them with diaries and published histories. .

2. He was later in a signals unit rather than a Field Company so Signals is a good back-fit. Signals needed specialist skills 

3. The 13th Div was annihilated, although this was not unique to this formation. 

 

I can tell you he is not mentioned in any of the RE diaries that are available online. (see my prev posts for the lists) as I have read them all. Twice. This does not mean he did not serve in one of them. it simply reflects the fact that Other Ranks rarely get mentioned by name. I would estimates that less than a fraction of a percent of British ORs were ever mentioned. Trying to find him in one of the RE diaries while possible seems highly improbable. Having transcribed every Battalion and Brigade diary for Gallipoli - well over 200 diaries -  I believe it is an informed view. Others may differ. 

 

MG

So if he is not mentioned in any online diary why not look at one that is not online?

[johnboy]

3 minutes ago, SapperBoo said:

So if he is not mentioned in any online diary why not look at one that is not online?

 

 

There would be no difference

[SapperBoo]

Just a thought.  Are we trying help Rachael or decide who is most knowledgeable on the history of the Gallipoli campaign.  If it is the latter I am sure I would come last.

2 minutes ago, johnboy said:

 

 

There would be no difference

Why?

[johnboy]

The ones online are copies of the originals {TNA] 

Some have been transcribed from these and are usually on Regimental sites.

unless you have found different.......

[SapperBoo]

5 minutes ago, johnboy said:

The ones online are copies of the originals {TNA] 

Some have been transcribed from these and are usually on Regimental sites.

unless you have found different.......

The problem is 13 Base Park Company War Diary is not available online (for down load form TNA).  Copies are held at TNA and the RE Museum.

Edited 28 June , 2017 by SapperBoo

[John_Hartley]

On 29/06/2017 at 02:12, SapperBoo said:

Are we trying help Rachael

We are trying to help Rachael.

 

As discussed earlier, there is absolutely nothing in the known facts to identify which RE unit he served with. The only way forward on that aspect would have been to scour all the RE diaries for units at Gallipoli to see if he was mentioned by name. At post 41, Guest says Rachael can eliminate a goodly number as he confirms Santer is not mentioned. That leaves a comparitively small number, including the one you suggest. It would now be for Rachael to draw up the list of those units still outstanding, make her way to the National Archives and spend a couple of days whizzing through them all to see if there is a mention. Yes, we know it's unlikely but it is all she could do.

 

Assuming that she doesnt find anything - and I suspect that will be the case - then she is at the end of the road. End of the road, at least, unless she wants to make an informed leap in the dark that a particular unit is most likely. In this, I agree  that 13th Signals Company appears a good fit but, to be honest, there would be insufficient confirmation to make the leap if it was me.

 

As for the other details of the story, I stick by my original comments - there are many bits and pieces that simply don't fit the known facts of the army at Gallipoli to be accurate, as told. I really do think these are the memories of an old man, close to death, where his memory has played tricks wiht him. It often happens to old men - my father in law now likes to recount how he was such a keen gardener - but the old boy did nothing more than cut the grass (and not very often at that).