Royal Engineers soldier abandoned in Gallipoli

[Rcahael1918]

Hi, I'm writing as I'm trying to find out more information about my great-grandfather, Ernest John Santer (b. 1885, Cranbrook, Kent). I have limited information on his military career, and I can only assume that his service record was one of those destroyed in the Blitz (I contacted the National Archives and was told they don't have it). I have his medal card (he was in the Royal Engineers) but the information on that is really limited and since I'm just a layperson I don't really know what I'm looking at/what information I can derive from it. I've attached it and I'd really appreciate help with interpreting it. In particular I'm really keen to find out what unit he was in, since I can then try and locate the relevant war diaries. 

 

There was also a letter that his daughter wrote to the local paper about his time in the military. The most relevant bits:

 

Quote

 

Ernest John Santer – known as Jack – moved to Sidmouth from his home in Kent after responding to an advert for a grocer’s apprentice at Trump Stores in the town.

 

Mrs Posta said her father would have been in his late 20s when he signed up for military service.

 

Unlike the rest of the group, who became part of the Devonshire Regiment, he trained with the Royal Engineers.

 

And instead of being shipped over to France with the bulk of the regular army units, Jack took part in the Gallipoli Campaign, in what is now Turkey.

 

Mrs Posta said that her father had talked very little about his experiences in the war, and only spoke openly about it when she was caring for him before his death.

 

“Just before he died he told me about how terrible it was,” said Mrs Posta. “He talked about how they had to load and unload these ships with horses in the heat. He said how the whole battalion went down with cholera, and they were all put in tents. A lot of them died, and the ones that survived moved on. They left my father behind for dead, and he said if it hadn’t have been for a little Arab boy bringing him water to drink, he would have died.”

 

Jack was listed as missing for six months, but eventually re-joined Allied forces before being sent to India.

 

“He never did say how he got back from Gallipoli,” added Mrs Posta.

 

He finished his military service as a quarter-master sergeant.

 

 

http://www.sidmouthherald.co.uk/news/reader-s-dad-was-gallipoli-veteran-1-3640317

 

I'd really appreciate whatever insight/help people can offer on this. It's quite a blindspot in the family history so I'd love to get a fuller picture of what happened to him.

 

59528c629ace4_ErnestJohnSanter.pdf

[John_Hartley]

Welcome to the Forum.

 

This link will explain how to interpret the medal index card - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/

 

It is difficult to determine a Royal Engineers unit. If he had been an infantryman, his medal index card would link to the actual medal rolls which would list his particular battalion. The Engineers rolls do not list units. The index card gives a date of entry to the theatre of war as 29/6/15. This isnt a particularly significant date for units landing at Gallipoli, which means it's pretty much impossible for me to even make a guess as to what his particular unit was.

 

I think there's something of a family story about him going mssing for 6 months and then reappearing. It is pretty much impossible for that to have happened unless he had deserted early in the campaign and then got caight. Rather than then being shipped off to India, he would have faced court martial for desertion, which carried the death penalty, as a maximum sentence. The reason why it could not have happened in what we might say was the ordinary course of events is that Gallipoli was very much a failed campaign and the troops were evacuated from the peninsula in early 1916. If, somehow, he had not been evacuated then he could not have evaded capture by the Turks and would have spent the rest of the war as a prisoner. So, mysterious as the story might seem, I think it was just a story.

Edited 27 June , 2017 by John_Hartley

[RaySearching]

Unfortunately Ernest's MIC

which you have added to the post as a PDF

shows that Ernest entered the theatre of war in Egypt on the  29th June 1915  not Gallipoli  

which would fit in with the story about the little arab boy and the unloading of horses

It looks like his war service may have been embellished with the passage of time 

 

Ray

 

 

[Rcahael1918]

24 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

Welcome to the Forum.

 

This link will explain how to interpret the medal index card - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/

 

It is difficult to determine a Royal Engineers unit. If he had been an infantryman, his medal index card would link to the actual medal rolls which would list his particular battalion. The Engineers rolls do not list units. The index card gives a date of entry to the theatre of war as 29/6/15. This isnt a particularly significant date for units landing at Gallipoli, which means it's pretty much impossible for me to even make a guess as to what his particular unit was.

 

I think there's something of a family story about him going mssing for 6 months and then reappearing. It is pretty much impossible for that to have happened unless he had deserted early in the campaign and then got caight. Rather than then being shipped off to India, he would have faced court martial for desertion, which carried the death penalty, as a maximum sentence. The reason why it could not have happened in what we might say was the ordinary course of events is that Gallipoli was very much a failed campaign and the troops were evacuated from the peninsula in early 1916. If, somehow, he had not been evacuated then he could not have evaded capture by the Turks and would have spent the rest of the war as a prisoner. So, mysterious as the story might seem, I think it was just a story.

 

Ah, thanks for that insight. Does that basically make it impossible to determine what his unit was? Are there any other resources I can turn to?

 

About the story, are you saying that you're getting the impression that the story about being left behind is a fabrication that he told the family to hide the fact that he deserted? I'm just a bit confused, since if he had deserted surely he wouldn't have been re-admitted to the army and even promoted? Is the fact that he was left behind to die the part that makes you doubtful the story is true, or is it more the idea that he somehow managed to survive and get out without being taken prisoner by the Turks?

 

RaySearching below points out that the medal card indicates service in Egypt rather than Gallipoli - is there a higher probability of the story of his being left behind being true if he was actually left behind in Egypt rather than Gallipoli?

 

7 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Unfortunately Ernest's MIC

which you have added to the post as a PDF

shows that Ernest entered the theatre of war in Egypt on the  29th June 1915  not Gallipoli  

which would fit in with the story about the little arab boy and the unloading of horses

It looks like his war service may have been embellished with the passage of time 

 

Ray

 

 

 

Ah, so is it impossible for him to have served in both places? I really hate family stories sometimes - things get so muddled that it becomes impossible to tell fact from fiction!

Edited 27 June , 2017 by Rcahael1918

[John_Hartley]

47 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

shows that Ernest entered the theatre of war in Egypt on the  29th June 1915  not Gallipoli  

 

Ray

 

Take that with a pinch of salt unless there's supporting evidence. I've found all sorts of entries amongst 6th Manchesters. When they arrived in Egypt in 9/14, it wasnt regarded as a theatre of war (as it was effectively part of the Empire), yet men have the landing  date there on their index card, whilst others in the same original group have a May 1915 Gallipoli date.

[John_Hartley]

45 minutes ago, Rcahael1918 said:

so is it impossible for him to have served in both places?

Not only possible but very likely he served in both places. I think all the troops who landed in the spring of 1915 had previously been based in Egypt in preparation.

 

As for the story - no I don't think he deserted or that he managed to survive without capture. I was trying to offer the only possibilities about how the story could be true. I do not believe any of the story was true but had become embellished over time. The story seems to be that he was in a field hospital ill with cholera and was simply left at Gallipoli when the army evacuated. That sort of thing simply didnt happen.

[Rcahael1918]

30 minutes ago, John_Hartley said:

Not only possible but very likely he served in both places. I think all the troops who landed in the spring of 1915 had previously been based in Egypt in preparation.

 

As for the story - no I don't think he deserted or that he managed to survive without capture. I was trying to offer the only possibilities about how the story could be true. I do not believe any of the story was true but had become embellished over time. The story seems to be that he was in a field hospital ill with cholera and was simply left at Gallipoli when the army evacuated. That sort of thing simply didnt happen.

But surely there are always exceptions in these kinds of situations? If a man appeared to be a hopeless case and close to death, would they still have taken him with them or would they have left him behind? While I absolutely think details and places may be wrong, I do believe that my GGF went missing for a protracted period during WWI. The fact that he was believed to have been killed in action had serious ramifications within the family at the time, and there was a big drama when he proved to be alive.

Edited 27 June , 2017 by Rcahael1918

[RaySearching]

 

Come on

A little Arab boy wandering about on the Gallipoli peninsular handing out water saving lives'

little Arab boys would have been a bit thin on the ground on the Gallipoli peninsula I would have thought

Not a grain of truth in it in my opinion 

 

 

 

Looked at a couple of surrounding service numbers 

 

               Theatre of war

43089         France
43090         Egypt

43091        ---------

43092         Egypt               Ernest J Santer

43093          Egypt

43094          France

45095          --------

43096         France

Inconclusive

 

Cannot see any surviving service records for Ernest

unless mentioned in a war diary or ,he is mentioned in other sources  or perhaps listed on a data base somewhere

I think you will have to accept that Ernest 's war service may have to remain a mystery  and the story also taken with a pinch of salt

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

58 minutes ago, Rcahael1918 said:

But surely there are always exceptions in these kinds of situations? If a man appeared to be a hopeless case and close to death, would they still have taken him with them or would they have left him behind? While I absolutely think details and places may be wrong, I do believe that my GGF went missing for a protracted period during WWI. The fact that he was believed to have been killed in action had serious ramifications within the family at the time, and there was a big drama when he proved to be alive.

A man who was already in the medical chain (which he would have been in the unit came down with cholera) would have been very unlikely to have been left behind - if he had, for example, been in no-man's land and been shot then perhaps but I doubt it in respect of the entire unit.

If an entire unit of engineers came down with cholera then a war diary should record it, the problem is determining which war diary to look at.

Craig

[Rcahael1918]

20 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

 

Come on

A little Arab boy wandering about on the Gallipoli peninsular handing out water saving lives'

little Arab boys would have been a bit thin on the ground on the Gallipoli peninsula I would have thought

Not a grain of truth in it in my opinion 

 

 

 

Looked at a couple of surrounding service numbers 

 

               Theatre of war

43089         France
43090         Egypt

43091        ---------

43092         Egypt               Ernest J Santer

43093          Egypt

43094          France

45095          --------

43096         France

Inconclusive

 

Cannot see any surviving service records for Ernest

unless mentioned in a war diary or ,he is mentioned in other sources  or perhaps listed on a data base somewhere

I think you will have to accept that Ernest 's war service may have to remain a mystery  and the story also taken with a pinch of salt

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

I appreciate your efforts to help here, but at the same time I'd prefer it if there were less condescension. I came here in good faith to ask for advice and information from people more knowledgeable than myself. I'm fully aware that the story sounds fanciful, as many stories passed down in families are, but the fact it has probably been embellished and misremembered over the years doesn't mean there is absolutely no truth in it. I know for a fact that he was considered missing for an extended period during WWI, and it had serious ramifications within my family. I accept that I am unlikely to find out what happened to him but at the same time I find ridiculing the recollections of an elderly woman with regards to her dead father unnecessary.

 

16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

A man who was already in the medical chain (which he would have been in the unit came down with cholera) would have been very unlikely to have been left behind - if he had, for example, been in no-man's land and been shot then perhaps but I doubt it in respect of the entire unit.

If an entire unit of engineers came down with cholera then a war diary should record it, the problem is determining which war diary to look at.

Craig

 

Thanks. I appreciate the insight. 

 

I expect I already know the answer, but I'm guessing there's nowhere left for me to look where I could discover his unit? With the service record gone I expect I'm out of options, which is sad but unsurprising. 

[ss002d6252]

Just now, Rcahael1918 said:

 

IThanks. I appreciate the insight. 

 

I expect I already know the answer, but I'm guessing there's nowhere left for me to look where I could discover his unit? With the service record gone I expect I'm out of options, which is sad but unsurprising. 

Not always. 'if' he was reported missing then he may appear in one of the casualty lists or he may appear in one if he was sick for any length of time. Hope isn't yet all lost.

Craig

[Rcahael1918]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

Not always. 'if' he was reported missing then he may appear in one of the casualty lists or he may appear in one if he was sick for any length of time. Hope isn't yet all lost.

Craig

Thanks! Do you know where I can find these lists? It's always hard to know where to start looking for things like this!

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, Rcahael1918 said:

Thanks! Do you know where I can find these lists? It's always hard to know where to start looking for things like this!

I've taken a look through the usual sources and I can't see anything obvious at the moment.

 

Craig

[RaySearching]

Rcahael1918

Sorry my post was not meant to be condescending

I was just trying ( badly ) it appears to make a point 

I was in no way ridiculing the recollections of an elderly woman

only trying to establish the truth

as you seem to have been offended 

I shall withdraw from posting further on this thread

 

Regards Ray

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

Rachael

 

From his number, he enlisted on 28/29th August, 1914.

 

The following are the RE units connected with Gallipoli:

 

13th Western Division: 71st, 72nd and 88th Field Companies. 13th Divisional Signal Company

 

29th Division:  2nd London Field Company (510 Company Jan 1917), 2nd Lowland Field Company (to 52nd Div 24.2.16) replaced by 3rd (Kent) Field Company (497 Company) , 1st West Riding Field Company (455 Company) 29 Divisional Signal Company.

 

42nd (East Lancashire) Division: 1st East Lancs Field Company (427 Coy from January 1917); 2nd East Lancs Field Company (428 Company); 3rd East Lancs Field Company (429 Company); 42nd Divisional Signal Company.

 

All have war diaries via TNA or Ancestry.

 

TR

Edited 27 June , 2017 by Terry_Reeves

[ss002d6252]

My post has crossed with Terry's.

 

Looking at surrounding numbers in the medal rolls shows men who entered theatre 3A on the same day or the day before (it's not uncommon to see a days variation) there is a man who was with the 71st Field Company, Royal Engineers. These men moved from Egypt to Gallipoli.

It's all a long shot but it may be worth looking at this diary first on the off chance.

 

Craig

[johnboy]

From Find My Past

 

Reference:	WO 372/17/165355
Description:	Medal card of Santer, Ernest J Corps Regiment No Rank Royal Engineers 43092 Driver Royal Engineers 43092 Corporal 2nd Royal Engineers 43092 Acting Company Quartermaster Serjeant
Date:	1914-1920
Held by:	The National Archives, Kew   This shows him as a Driver, Corporal and then ACTING Cqm Sjt.

[SapperBoo]

 Hi Rachael,

 

Your GGF story rang a bell with me, it is a bit of a long shot but you could add 13 Base Park Company, Royal Engineers to the list of War Diaries to track down.  It is recorded that 13 Base Park Company, Royal Engineers 'left behind' a small detachment of 12 men left on 'W' Beach Gallipoli when they withdrew to Mudros.  The main role was ferrying stores including unloading ships.  It is also recorded the units strength was greatly reduced due to sickness.  Of the men left behind it is recorded 6 were killed, 5 are buried next to each other in the Lancashire Landing Cemetery, including 2 men who were serving on the Ordnance Survey before the War.  Perhap your GGF was the 6th man?

 

Or is this a bit fanciful

 

Most of the above information has come from the History of 13 Survey Company, Royal Engineers on the Military Survey web site. http://www.militarysurvey.org.uk/   I have cut and pate the relevant section.  I assume this information came from the War Diary of 13 Base Park Company.

 

Clive

 

The Great War 1914 - 18 
At the start of World War I it was anticipated that the small British Expeditionary Force on the continent of Europe would be working under favourable conditions in developed country which would have already been mapped. The BEF took with it to France only two small HQ survey staffs and the Printing Company RE. As the war developed this was found to be totally inadequate and the survey service expanded; towards the end of the war there was a Field Survey Battalion.with each Army.
Early in the war, before this expansion took place, 13 Survey Company RE was remobilised at Pembroke on 13 April 1915 as a Base Park Company RE (Mediterranean) totalling 78 personnel. Later in April 1915 the company, under the command of Maj E N Mozley RE, embarked at Plymouth and sailed for Alexandria, arriving two weeks later. On 16 May 1915 the company re-embarked for Gallipoli, landing on 'W' Beach, Cape Helles, on 19 May 1915. Shortly afterwards Maj Mozley was posted as CRE to an Australian Division and Maj P H Campbell RE assumed command on 1 June 1915.
The company was employed mainly in the lighterage of equipment from store-ships in the bay, but enemy shellfire and submarine activity necessitated moving the Base Park first to Imbros and finally to Mudros. It is recorded that a small detachment of 12 men left on 'W' Beach until August 1915 suffered 6 killed and 3 wounded from shellfire. At Mudros a RE Pier was built in August 1915 and this greatly helped the unit's task of boat ferrying stores to Helles, Imbros, Anzac and Suvla Beaches. During this time the unit strength was greatly depleted due to sickness, falling at one time to 42 all ranks.
On 29 January 1916 the company disembarked at Alexandria from Mudros and Lt W M Jennings RE who had been with the company at Gallipoli assumed command. The Base Park was established at Alexandria and the company now greatly reinforced was kept very busy moving stores by ship and rail. During February and March 1916 the average daily handling of material was 885 tons, this was made possible by the provision of large working parties from the Egyptian Labour Corps.
In April 1916 a Workshop of 2 Officers and 52 men was added to the establishment, this was kept extremely busy providing base workshop facilities at Alexandria. Maj Jennings handed over the company to Captain D A Law RE in October 1917; he commanded briefly until the arrival of Maj W E Francis RE on 19 November 1917. Maj Francis relinquished command in October 1919, by which time the company strength was gradually being run down; the name of his successor is not recorded.
The company remained at Alexandria as a Base Park until 6 April 1920 when the war diary closed and it is assumed that the company disbanded on that date.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

On rereading your relations account I can see the problem with so called six months left behind.

 

That is we take these words at face value.

 

I have many soldiers sent away from Gallipoli to Malta or Egypt with some illness, and never rejoined their units for many months after.

 

So if she ment he was away from his unit in hosp recovering from his illness then that is more likely.

 

By the way a number of hosp were sent up on the islands not far from Gallipoli where those with illness could recover. many had natives to help them.

 

But I am more inclined to say he was sent to hosp in Egypt to recover and returned to his unit around six months later.

[John_Hartley]

Let's take the story at face value.

 

That is, that he was ill and in hospital. He is then abandoned when the evacuation took place, but manages to rejoin his unit some six months later.

 

The hospital would have to be a Main Dressing Station or Casualty Clearing Station on Gallipoli. These obviously existed but, as we know, were "short stay" only with men being evacuated quickly to the neighbouring islands or to places further away, such as Malta or Egypt. So, the odds are greatly in favour of him not being treated at Gallipoli.

 

But, lets say he was. For the story to be accurate, it requires the Royal Army Medical Corps to abandon at least one, and presumably more, of its patients when they left Gallipoli. There is absolutely no evidence that this happened and, indeed, the facts of the evacuation are entirely to the contrary. The evacuation was a complete success, with every man leaving and, indeed, there being no casualties during the evacuation.

 

But let's say that he was abandoned. And, lets assume he was the only one abandoned by the doctors. Within hours of the evacuation, the Turks had realised the British & French had left and moved forward, retaking the three miles or so of territory that had been occupied. We would have to assume that, somehow, they didnt find him in  the MDS/CCS - otherwise he would have been taken prisoner. We then also have to assume that, seriously ill and without further medical attention, he managed to evade capture for six months, with the Turkish army all around him. So, the final question is - how  did he manage to get off the peninsula and make it to safety? Let's face it, even if we accepted the full story at face value, it simply falls down on this last question. He simply could not have got off Gallipoli.

 

The far more likely scenario is as outlined by stevebecker. He was in hospital for six months and then rejoined his unit. But, even here, there's questions that are very difficult to answer. He is supposed to have been missing for all this time. That would seem to mean that the usual procedures for notifying next of kin fell down. That would mean that he never wrote home - not even sending a "tick box" field postcard. Or that no-one at the hospital wrote home on his behalf. Men simply didnt disappear like that, without contact.

 

 

[ForeignGong]

Welcome to the forum.

 

His entry is listed as Egypt, 29/6/15, on his MIC. My understanding is this does not mean that he landed there on that date, because Egypt its self was not a war zone and any one only landing in Egypt would not have that destination as "Theatre of War first Served in". He would have had to cross the Suez to the East bank to have the notation "Egypt" as only then he would be in a war zone.

His highest rank held in a war zone is Second Corporal, as the star notation beside that rank on his MIC testifies.

 

He was Mentioned in Despatches as per the London Gazette below, P 7243, bottom RH corner as a 2nd Cpl in the Engineers Signals.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31386/page/7243

 

P7242 has the Title "INDIAN ARMY", so he was serving with them.

P7233 is the Title page for this Gazette and states it is for the Mesopotamia Campaign.

 

Peter

 

 

[Guest]

I would concur with the views that the story is extremely unlikely to have happened. Old soldiers stories often become embellished over time and in simple terms the scenario of being left on Gallipoli for 6 months would be impossible in my view - for all the reasons outlined by John and others. This is not unusual.

 

Also worth noting:

1. Medal Index Cards . (3) in a MIC meant Disembarking in Egypt regardless of where in Egypt they disembarked. There were many thousands of troops that disembarked in Egypt and subsequently served in Gallipoli - some only spent a day in Egypt yet still have (3) on their MICs. The medal rolls can be a source of great confusion in this regard and are are not always accurate; often confusing disembarking in Egypt and serving at Gallipoli with disembarking in the Dardanelles (code 2B). I have learned to tread with extreme caution in the medal rolls. The MICs are secondary records prepared from information on the rolls. If there is an error in the roll, it is likely to contaminate the MIC. It is very possible, that a man disembarking in Egypt in June 1915 ended up in Gallipoli. Most men who served at Gallipoli suffered from various ailments such as dysentery and related diseases as a result of the filthy conditions. Being hospitalised for 6 months would not be unusual, in addition the blizzard in Nov 1915 created tens of thousands o non-battle casualties. Severe cases could be evacuated to a number of hospital from the UK, Malta, Egypt etc. Being 'left behind' in the context of this story might simply mean being left in hospital while his unit moved on and this has been confabulated into being left at Gallipoli.  Of interest all hospitalised men were evacuated weeks before the final evacuation for reasons that would be blindingly obvious. The evacuation orders were considered a high point in a very unsuccessful campaign and the detail included tables of exact numbers of men in every unit and a very sophisticated double and treble check at each evacuation point that counted every man in. 

 

His disembarkation date is unlikely to provide many clues as we don't know if he was part of the main body of a unit or simply a later reinforcement. 

 

2. Royal Engineers. There were a few more RE units that served in the Dardanelles than those listed above. 65th Fd Coy, 66th Fd Coy, 67th Fd Coy, 68th Fd Coy,  2/1st Cheshire Fd Coy (TF), 1/2nd East Anglian (TF), 2/1st East Anglian Fd Coy (TF), 2/1st and 2/2nd Lowland Fd Coy, 1/1st Welsh Fd Coy (TF) etc as just some examples. There were also specialist RE units such as 254th Tunnelling Coy RE, 413th Fd Coy RE, 136th Monmouth Army Troops Coy RE, etc. The list is very long. Lots of haystacks.  Even with these addittions the list is far from complete. The History of the Royal Engineers Vol VI has the complete list.

 

3. Diaries. Tracing the subject through the diaries would be akin to looking for a needle in a number of haystacks. Most diaries fail to mention Other Ranks by name. It is rare that the diaries of the period included nominal rolls. While not impossible I think it is extremely unlikely that he would be mentioned unless he was mentioned in despatches or received some award for gallantry.

 

MG

[John_Hartley]

I'd be the first to accept that I have very limited knowledge as to the workings of RE units. But ForeignGong's post mentions his later "Mention in Despatches" that he was in the Signals. Now I know that's a 1919 reference but might it suggest that he was also in an RE Signals Company at Gallipoli. In which case, there must be a narrowing down of war diaries to look at. Of course, he may have been with an ordinary field company and was posted to signals after his recovery form the cholera (in which case we're back to square 1).

 

I'd obviously agree that its unlikely for him to be mentioned by name in a war diary but I have found that Corps units - such as RE or RFA - can be more detailed in that respect than an infantry battalion. My great uncle was mentioned as a KIA in the artillery diary to which he was attached from the RAOC. I suppose the way forward for the OP, assuming Ancestry access, or ease of getting to the National Archives, is to trawl through all the RE war diaries for a mention. Tedious but it wouldnt take overly long, as you'd be quickly skimming the page

[Rcahael1918]

I'll reply in full later but for now I just wanted to say a big thank you for all of this insight and information. There is loads of brilliant stuff to work with here and there are definitely loads of leads I can follow up! Thanks everyone!

[Guest]

I have trawled most of the RE diaries in question. Very few mention Other Ranks by name and those that do only mention small numbers. I know this is of no surprise but may help to lower expectations. 

 

As a general rule the smaller the unit, the greater the probability of Other Ranks being mentioned by name. I suspect some of the smaller RE unit diaries might be cobbled on to the HQ Div and HQ Corps diaries. 

 

The challenge with this particular search is that the subject was a non-battle casualty as opposed to a battle casualty. The former were less likely to be named, especially as vast proportions of the units at Gallipoli became non-battle casualties; they simply became statistics "x men sick to hospital" etc.day after day. Take 71st Fd Coy RE as one example. Its numbers had halved in less than 2 months. 

 

I would suggest/echo a 'probability' based approach.

I suspect he is less likley to have been in a TF unit as these were generally restricted to recruiting locally, within the boundaries of the County Association. No Devon based RE TF units made it to Gallipoli. That would leave the Regulars or the NEw Army units.

 

Most men arrived with their original units as a unit. Reinforcements outside the 29th Div were generally a fraction of the original strengths. Given his arrival dates the 29th Div RE units had arrived months before (although this does not rule out him being a reinforcement) however most were TF units. (1/2nd London, 1/1st West Riding and 1/2nd Lowland); the units that arrived in Egypt in late June and transferred to Gallipoli soon after were mainly the New Army Formations; Given he ended up in a Signals unit, I would agree with John's assessment that this would be the best place to start....assuming one can trace the relevant diaries. Most stopped at Alexandria to offload unnecessary stores and then steamed towards the Dardanelles. These Divisions landed on 6th/7th Aug 1915 and were largely annihilated within 2 months. specifically

 

10th (Irish) Div)

65th Fd Coy RE - Alexandria 19th July 1915 .......................................................................(diary 35 pages)

66th Fd Coy RE - Plymouth 8th, Lemnos 25th Jul 1915 ......................................................(diary 21 pages)

86th Fd Coy RE....................................................................................................................diary missing

10th Signal Company* - cant find the diary. CRE's diary (32 pages) makes no mention

 

11th (Northern) Div

67th Fd Coy RE - Devonport 1st July, Alexandria 12th July 1915 ........................................(diary 26 pages)

68th Fd Coy RE - UK??, Lemnos 20th July 1915 .................................................................(diary 22 pages)

86th Fd Coy RE - Plymouth 4th July, Alexandria 18th July 1915 .........................................(diary 28 pages)

11th Signal Company* - cant find the diary. ................................CRE's diary (22 pages) makes no mention

 

13th (Western) Div

71st Fd Coy RE - Avonmouth 16th June, Alexandria 30th June 1915 ..................................(diary 21 pages)

72nd Fd Coy RE - Avonmouth 15th June, Alexandria 1st July 1915 .....................................(diary 25 pages)

88th Fd Coy RE - no dates. Landed ANZAC on 20th August 1915 .......................................(diary 14 pages)

13th Signal Company* - ....................................see WO 95/4301 (53 pages) Landed at Mudros 5th July 1915.

 

* Shown in the original ORBATS but not shown in the ORBATS for the OH Gallipoli.

 

So, looking at the dates, purely on a probability basis the 13th Div Signal Company looks like the best bet. It would almost certainly have been with the Div HQ troughout the voyage and stopped at Alexandria. Some of diaries above mention offloading some RE drivers and wagons. CRE (Commander Royal Engineers) of 13th Div arrived in Alexandria on 30th June 1915.

 

To be clear this is an informed guess. He could have been a later reinforcement for another unit, but his disemarkation dates closely fit those of the 13th Div as pointed out earlier by Craig. The data above merely eliminates most other candidate units.

 

I hope this helps at least narrow the probabilities if nothing else. 

 

MG

 

 

Separately

8th Corps Signal Coy disembarked on 19th July 1915 so these dates don't work (WO 95/4275)

9th Corps Signal Coy - diary missing

 

Edit: The History of 65th Coy RE (a scarce tome) stresses the fact that the Company was formed from the first 100,000 of Kitchener's Army. Formed at Chatham from volunteer recruits it ended up with the 10th (Irish) Div. Given the subject of this thread enlisted on 28th/29th Aug it is worth noting that some 298,000 men had volunteered by the end of Aug 1914.

 

Each New Army Division initially had two Field Companies, later expanded to three., which explains the odd number sequence of RE Field Companies within each Division.

 

Edited 28 June , 2017 by Guest