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Frank Flanders

messines trench map

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Frank Flanders
On 10-8-2017 at 11:16, Frank Flanders said:

he was at the 3/NZF Amb with a strained ankle in Apr. that was located in the ecole at Neippe - the location given as B.16.c.7.8.

The actual location of the 3/NZL Amb at the school at Nieppe I guess can still be found rather easily. Do you have a trench map (or overlay) that indicates the location B.16.c.7.8. 

This information also would be very welcome to me and Jack's relatives. Thanks.

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Frank Flanders
On 11-7-2017 at 10:20, Frank Flanders said:

You're welcome (Nieppe it should be, not Neippe) Map of those trenches you mention would be welcome of course (" Gas Trench - Locality three - Wellington Ave - Taranaki Ave - Otira" . The cemetery information on Jack, as wel as on other NZL soldiers like the Hamblyn brothers I do have (they're on my FB page of remembrance),  I visited their graves before and also on Messines centenary. I know the area very well, been there so often, do know the history of the sites and  I visited all sites with the family of course this time too. I'm used of doing these trips and guidances, I'm not unaware, but Thanks again 

 

"on the night of the 6th they moved off to assembly trenches - via " Gas Trench - Locality three - Wellington Ave - Taranaki Ave - Otira" 

I can supply you a map of those trenches if needed. "  I still would like a map that shows those trenches. Could you still send this?

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Don Regiano
15 hours ago, Frank Flanders said:

"on the night of the 6th they moved off to assembly trenches - via " Gas Trench - Locality three - Wellington Ave - Taranaki Ave - Otira" 

I can supply you a map of those trenches if needed. "  I still would like a map that shows those trenches. Could you still send this?

 

Gas Trench = U. 13. a, c

Locality 3 = U. 7. c

Wellington Avenue = U. 4. a,  O. 34. b, d

Taranaki Ave = ?

Otira = O. 36. a, O. 30. c

 

Mostly shown on this May 1918 map:

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.7540&lon=2.9058&layers=101464927&b=1

 

Start at bottom left for U.13 and move to top right for O. 30

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Frank Flanders

Thank you, but : The map shows indeed a trench called Otira, but it can't be the Otira trench of June 7th 1917 where the 3rd NZ Rfl.Brigade assembled just prior to their attack towards Messines Ridge. (The Otira trench shown here is beyond Messines center).

I read somewhere that this trench I'm talking about, was named Otira by the NZL working parties but wasn't mentioned on the maps of that time (May-June 1917). The war diary mentions this "Otira"  and a map showing their assembly trenches on the night of June 6th, shows the trench and their assembly position (without name), just in front of Messines Ridge.

Seen the war diary mentions they moved forward on he evening of June 6th via "Gas Trench - Locality three - Wellington Ave - Taranaki Ave to Otira " this Otira is the trench situated just before Messines Ridge. I have the location of Gas trench, Wellington Ave and Taranaki Ave, and on a map I have, Taranaki Ave does lead to a the trench just past Boyle's Farm and Gabion Farm, facing the German Oyster and Uhlan trench, this trench to them was Otira. 

image.png

image.png

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Don Regiano

Frank.

 

Well, as I'm not an expert on Messines and don't have the NZ war diaries I can't help you any further.  I was merely following the track you laid down from Gas Trench via Wellington Ave to Otira using Rats Alley and various maps.  Based on those I find it difficult to envision Wellington Avenue stretching that far west into the area of your interest - the best I can see is that it could conceivably have stretched to U.10.a but there is still a disconnect between there and Locality 3 in U. 7. c.  If it is possible to ascertain this, however, that it did, then it may help you.  Of course, it is also difficult to take full account of the conditions in which they were operating in 1917 and how much the maps really did reflect the reality.  Does the war diary establish the precise objectives for the action as that may help?

 

Reg

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Frank Flanders
On 10-7-2017 at 13:01, jacksdad said:

 

"I imagine you know that the 3/Rilfes was the first wave and that they advanced from Otira Trench up the centre right. between the NZ Memorial on their right and Messines Ridge Cemetery on their left. to the Brown line (objective).

I can send you a map with the objectives coloured in if needed."

This information you sent me earlier doesn't seem to be correct. The 3rd NZ Rfls  attacked Messines Ridge to the right of what is now the NZ Memorial Park, they moved towards Ulcer trench, with the 1st NZ Rfls. right of them. (they so had the NZ Memorial on their left side)

To the left side of the NZ memorial were the 1st Canterburry and 1st Otago.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Quote
 

 

Edited by Frank Flanders

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Frank Flanders
On 10-7-2017 at 13:01, jacksdad said:

 

"I imagine you know that the 3/Rilfes was the first wave and that they advanced from Otira Trench up the centre right. between the NZ Memorial on their right and Messines Ridge Cemetery on their left. to the Brown line (objective).

I can send you a map with the objectives coloured in if needed."

Dear Jacksdad, This information (quoted above) you sent me earlier,  doesn't seem to be correct. The 3rd NZ Rfl Bgd attacked Messines Ridge to the right of what is now the NZ Memorial Park, they moved towards Ulcer trench with the 1st NZ Rfls on their right.. (they so add the NZ Memorial on their left side).  To the right of the NZ Memorial were the 1st Canterbury and 1st Otago. 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Quote
 

 

Edited by Frank Flanders

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jacksdad

sorry - yes, bit unclear.

centre right of attack, so the memorial was on their left. they were on the righthand side of the memorial as they they advanced.

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Frank Flanders
10 hours ago, jacksdad said:

sorry - yes, bit unclear.

centre right of attack, so the memorial was on their left. they were on the righthand side of the memorial as they they advanced.

that's indeed what I wrote, and so their position wasn't in between what is now Messines Ridge Cemetery an the NZ Memorial Park.

See map attached which I edited.

 

 

Messines 1917 NLZ attack  (2).jpg

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jacksdad

That's correct right hand side of the NZ Mem, you have got it now. Indeed, as i stated, the right hand side of the advance.

I will try and hunt out the trench map showing the R.A.P. that wounded went through for the Rifle Brigade.

Edited by jacksdad

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jacksdad

Here is a trench map showing the actual location "+" of the R.A.P., which may help with your research.5affae854e2d9_IMG_8125-Copy.JPG.a777bd67d0c5bf1a44c8b616bfdbb672.JPG

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WhiteStarLine

By strange coincidence we have on loan for display at work the original Stinking Farm wooden sign together with a 'Walking Wounded' signpost.

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Frank Flanders
27 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

By strange coincidence we have on loan for display at work the original Stinking Farm wooden sign together with a 'Walking Wounded' signpost.

Wow. Is sending me a photograph of this possible?

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jacksdad
36 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

By strange coincidence we have on loan for display at work the original Stinking Farm wooden sign together with a 'Walking Wounded' signpost.

Incredible.

do you have a photo?

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WhiteStarLine

The Australian War Memorial loans these out from time to time to organisations but we are not allowed cameras at work unfortunately.

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Frank Flanders
10 hours ago, jacksdad said:

Here is a trench map showing the actual location "+" of the R.A.P., which may help with your research.5affae854e2d9_IMG_8125-Copy.JPG.a777bd67d0c5bf1a44c8b616bfdbb672.JPG

Thanks for the map. I suppose you are referring to the blue dot indication, not the red cross (more to the right) ?

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jacksdad

No that's (blue dot) a pond, the R.A.P. is the red cross

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WhiteStarLine

Here is the image and the story behind it was posted in an Australian War Memorial blog post, together with some of the trench map extracts posted above.  Just a funny coincidence to see this thread and realise that the sign I walk by every day was collected by the CO of 13th Field Ambulance over 100 years ago.  It looks in really good condition and is placed next to a wooden signpost that says "Walking Wounded" also collected by Vincent-Welch.  I stopped twice to read the captions in more detail today knowing of your interest.

 

From https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/blog/stinking-farm-trench-sign:

 

"The trench sign ‘To Stinking Farm & Currie Ave’ was collected during the First World War by Lieutenant Colonel John Basil St. Vincent Welch, whilst he was serving as part of the 13thField Ambulance in Belgium. Welch arrived in Marseilles on 13 July 1916 as a member of the Australian Field Ambulance. He was appointed the commanding officer of the 13thField Ambulance and was stationed around the village of Messines, which would be the site of the Battle of Messines 11 months later. Stationed at Kandahar Farm, Welch assisted in this battle, tending to the wounded as they came back from the front and organising the transportation of the men further back the line to the field hospitals."

 

IMG_0285-550x151.jpg

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Frank Flanders

thanks for posting this.

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Frank Flanders
On 20-5-2018 at 00:28, jacksdad said:

No that's (blue dot) a pond, the R.A.P. is the red cross

ok. and where does this map come from? I also have a detail map indicating the RAP at the same spot, only not this map. Apparently there's more than one map concerning this RAP.

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