Frank Flanders Posted 26 June , 2017 Share Posted 26 June , 2017 hello, can anyone send me a trench map and locate the postion of these coordinates (further on) which refer to a former temporary burial ground (then named Auckland cemetery) at Messines, it was apparently located at the northern bank of the Douve river, just below the NZ attack line in June 1917 coordinates V.7.A.5.6 many thanks if so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tMapper Posted 27 June , 2017 Share Posted 27 June , 2017 Hi Frank, Did you mean U.7.a.5.6? If so, visit http://tmapper.com/mapping/overlay_28sw4.php and navigate to square U, square number 7. Slide the overlay to reveal more or less of the trench map. If you want to download the map (which originally came from McMaster University under a Creative Commons License, an extract is at http://tmapper.com/images/maps/28SW4.jpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 Wow, this a really quick response and I'm very happy with this! Thanks so very much, also on behalf of the NZ friends whose grand uncle once was buried there on June 7th 1917. (btw the upper link doens't work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Wood Posted 27 June , 2017 Share Posted 27 June , 2017 Hadn't used TMapper before so I gave it a go with this. Whilst I'm happy to praise the site as a great resource for researchers I do have to note that the alignment of the overlay is a bit out. Not so far out that you can't relate the two, but .... I guess the maths is a little out. On 27/06/2017 at 03:13, Frank Flanders said: temporary burial ground (then named Auckland cemetery) at Messines I guess it's a lot better than Stinking Farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 indeed thas was the trench map name of farm at the time. There's still a farm tehre, passed by it yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 27 June , 2017 Share Posted 27 June , 2017 On 27/06/2017 at 03:13, Frank Flanders said: hello, can anyone send me a trench map and locate the postion of these coordinates (further on) which refer to a former temporary burial ground (then named Auckland cemetery) at Messines, it was apparently located at the northern bank of the Douve river, just below the NZ attack line in June 1917 coordinates V.7.A.5.6 many thanks if so This is from the "Body Density" series and is marked on the reverse in blue pencil, AAM, thought to be Lt. Col. A.A. Messer, a key member of what became the CWGC. It is assumed he marked the map. Square 7 shows Stinking Farm and next to it what looks like a 7 but is more likley to be an arrow as other cemeteries on the map have an arrow but no number. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 (edited) quite an interesting map this is ! thanks as well ! what does AAM stand for ? Edited 27 June , 2017 by Frank Flanders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Wood Posted 27 June , 2017 Share Posted 27 June , 2017 22 minutes ago, Frank Flanders said: quite an interesting map this is ! thanks as well ! what does AAM stand for ? A A Messer see post 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 indeed, obviously, overlooked this, thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, tMapper said: Hi Frank, Did you mean U.7.a.5.6? If so, visit http://tmapper.com/mapping/overlay_28sw4.php and navigate to square U, square number 7. Slide the overlay to reveal more or less of the trench map. If you want to download the map (which originally came from McMaster University under a Creative Commons License, an extract is at http://tmapper.com/images/maps/28SW4.jpg. no not U, but V.7.A.5.6 (CWGC information) Edited 27 June , 2017 by Frank Flanders error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 27 June , 2017 Share Posted 27 June , 2017 Nothing seen at V.7.A.5.6 on the Body Density map or others I have looked at although I have not checked them all. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, tMapper said: Hi Frank, Did you mean U.7.a.5.6? V.7.A.5.6 are coordinates I got from teh CWGC Quote If so, visit http://tmapper.com/mapping/overlay_28sw4.php and navigate to square U, square number 7. Slide the overlay to reveal more or less of the trench map. If you want to download the map (which originally came from McMaster University under a Creative Commons License, an extract is at http://tmapper.com/images/maps/28SW4.jpg. Edited 27 June , 2017 by Frank Flanders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 Ichecked the CWGC file and the so called "V" appaears to me very well as "U", so your guess may be correct. see file I attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 27 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2017 (edited) hi, after checking and informing with CWGC the coordinates are indeed 28U.7.a.5.6 but nearby exhumations are also noted with these coordinates: 28U.7.a.8.7 perhaps a good wiling person could check these coordinates on overlay maps for me, for overlay mapping is "Greek" to me... thanks if you can do this Edited 27 June , 2017 by Frank Flanders typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 27 June , 2017 Share Posted 27 June , 2017 Here is an overlay on Google Earth. U.7.a.5.6 is shown as green lines, U.7.a.8.7 is the red feature as marked by Messer. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tMapper Posted 27 June , 2017 Share Posted 27 June , 2017 And here is Howard's map as a Google Map heatmap. Visit http://tmapper.com/mapping/heatmap.php and click on the 'Ypres' button, then Messines is due south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 28 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2017 21 hours ago, Howard said: Here is an overlay on Google Earth. U.7.a.5.6 is shown as green lines, U.7.a.8.7 is the red feature as marked by Messer. Howard Thank you so much Howard for this effort of yours and these overlay maps, the other one(s) as well. It means a great deal to me but the more for the relatives of the fallen soldier boy. Really appreciated !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 28 June , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 June , 2017 (edited) On 27-6-2017 at 16:48, Frank Flanders said: no not U, but V.7.A.5.6 (CWGC information) On 27-6-2017 at 10:04, tMapper said: Hi Frank, Did you mean U.7.a.5.6? If so, visit http://tmapper.com/mapping/overlay_28sw4.php and navigate to square U, square number 7. Slide the overlay to reveal more or less of the trench map. If you want to download the map (which originally came from McMaster University under a Creative Commons License, an extract is at http://tmapper.com/images/maps/28SW4.jpg. I'd like to thank you "TMapper" as well for you kind cooperation in this coordinates matter. As I said in another post here, it really means much to me and even more to the relatives of the fallen soldier boy who will visit the place with me in July. Thanks so much ! Edited 29 June , 2017 by Frank Flanders typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 July , 2017 Share Posted 2 July , 2017 (edited) Frank, To be honest ... 1. I am not really familiar with the area (I live north of Ypres), and 2. most of all, after having a look on CWGC, specifically the Burial Returns of a number of Auckland men, I ... took to my heels, as it looks rather complicated and confusing ! Example: I saw a handful of men fallen on 7 July 1917, bodies found V.7.a.5.8 (Day, Kelly (Kelleher?), Hardwick, Wilson), in 3-F-23 to 27. Which I found a little odd, as V.7 is east of Warneton centre ! And then I looked at the men 3-F-27 & 28 (Brown and Richdale). Same co-ordinates, except that the V looks rather like a U ... What if what I saw first as a V (Day, Kelleher, Hardwick, Wilson) should be a U ? Anyway I don't want to bother you with my confusion and frustration, you already have enough problems of your own. :-) Aurel Edited 2 July , 2017 by Aurel Sercu typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 2 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2017 (edited) the coordinates concerned are (28)U (etc..), not.(28)V (etc ..), though in the handwritten document the U looks a bit like a V. This confusion was rapidly cleared out. I had extended communication with the CWGC about this research and the soldiers buried at the specific coordinates and Auckland cemetery, all fallen on 7th JUNE 1917, some other British on other dates end 1914, early 1915. The whole question of coordinates, the name and the actual location has been solved. I know the area very well, been there many times exploring. Everything matches. The only thing stll left was, asking if any one else still had more information about Auckland cemetery, one never knows something extra might have turned up. the 4 men you mention (all from Auckland Cemetery originally) PS: it's Kelleher / Hilson (not Wilson) RICHDALE, JACK CYRIL 10108 Private 2nd Bn. Auckland Regiment, N.Z.E.F. 7/06/1917 BROWN, HUIA VIVIAN 24484 Private 2nd Bn. Auckland Regiment, N.Z.E.F. 7/06/1917 DAY, FREDERICK 11005 Private 2nd Bn. Auckland Regiment, N.Z.E.F. 7/06/1917 KELLEHER, JAMES 27650 Private 2nd Bn. Auckland Regiment, N.Z.E.F. 7/06/1917 HARDWICK, WILLIAM ALBERT 18797 Private 2nd Bn. Auckland Regiment, N.Z.E.F. 7/06/1917 HILLSON, CHARLES* 26/1607 Rifleman 4th Bn. 3rd New Zealand Rifle Brigade 7/06/1917 Edited 2 July , 2017 by Frank Flanders extra info added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 2 July , 2017 Share Posted 2 July , 2017 I agree. The V had to be read as a U indeed. So Auckland men were buried in at least 3 different locations in the subsquare 28.U.7.a. - The red cemetery marked on the Body density map. - 5.6, which is more or less in the yard of the farm (just south of the mainbuilding) - And 5.8, which is just north of the farmhouse, close to the road. (And that is where Day, Kelly (Kelleher), Hardwick and Wilson were originally buried.) Correct ? And if T.E. Smith, 15WYR, +29-09-1917 was found indeed on U (not V).a.1.8, then there is even a fourth one, though maybe only for 1 man. (Top left corner of the subsquare, left of the 'elbow' in the road or cart track.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 2 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 2 July , 2017 the (...)5.6 and (...5.8) digits do indeed refer to the farm / places you mention. The body density map indeed locates the cemetery aside of the farm, so there may have been 3 burial spots, though i's certainly not excluded that the indication very well may have referred to one of the coordinates. It wouldn't be that exceptional that also (even individual) soldiers were buried here and there of course.( As to T. E. Smith, he's no part of my research, where did you find his date?) On the spot you refer to, the Body Density map doesn't indicate a cemetery or possible burial). Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 3 July , 2017 Share Posted 3 July , 2017 I have tried to get a better geo-reference for this but have had a lot of trouble, something does not quite match as you can see if you compare the map-fit with other sources. So I took a different approach, fitting the McMaster map only for square U by scaling just that fragment over the Google Earth image then marking the two map references. Even so the fit is not brilliant. These are shown as the centres of the square 8.7 and 5.6 and give a more accurate location, however, such are the problems of fitting old surveys to new maps that they should be treated as "in the area of" rather than anything more precise but at least are better than before. One reason the fit is a bit iffy is the nature of the roads, in the 100 years since the war no doubt they have been mended, widened etc. and the stream south of the farm will have wondered a bit. The farm buildings are not likely to be exactly on the same footprint as before so if the map is fitted to one feature, it does not fit on another. I took an average. If you want better accuracy, the best way is to identify a fixed point that was there in the war and is still there and to take bearings and distances from that point. I cannot assess such a point, a site visit would be required. If you take a bearing to 8.7 from the pond centre it gives a value of 43 degrees on the old map, very different from the value here. The pond is not likely to either be marked exactly on the old map (surveyors sketched ponds by eye) or be in exactly the same place now. If you can find a fixed point that would help. If (big if!) I assume the SE corner of the buildings on the McMaster map coincides with the SE corner of the property now (it looks like it) and draw bearing lines from that, then 8.7 with be 58 degrees and 5.6 will be 315 degrees from that point. Scaling to where the bearing lines cuts the road gives an approximate position that is qute different from the first approach. I hope that helps. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 July , 2017 Share Posted 3 July , 2017 15 hours ago, Frank Flanders said: the (...)5.6 and (...5.8) digits do indeed refer to the farm / places you mention. The body density map indeed locates the cemetery aside of the farm, so there may have been 3 burial spots, though i's certainly not excluded that the indication very well may have referred to one of the coordinates. It wouldn't be that exceptional that also (even individual) soldiers were buried here and there of course.( As to T. E. Smith, he's no part of my research, where did you find his date?) On the spot you refer to, the Body Density map doesn't indicate a cemetery or possible burial). Frank Frank, As to how many burial places (apart from the red one of the Body Density Map), no reason to bother. After all the distance between 5.6 and 5.8 is only 9 metres (and in practice it may have been even less - or more). As to Thomas Edwin Smith, don't worry about him.. (And he is in Plot 3 - row C - grave 11, and was 15th WYR.) The concentration document shows V.6.a.1.8 as the original co-ordinates, and the handwritten V no doubt is a V for sure, as it is very different from the U just below. So the man was exhumed near Waasten. Besides, the year I gave was a typo. (Sorry.) He died 29 Sept. 1918, the beginning of the final Liberation Offensive. And they started from near Waasten, not from near Stinking Farm. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Flanders Posted 3 July , 2017 Author Share Posted 3 July , 2017 right. the difference is indeed rather small. Only on Col. messers map, the cemetery is locatd to the left, a bit further and larger distance. But np . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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