Downing of 20 Squadron Bristol Fighter 30 Jul 1919

[pjwmacro]

I am interested in the downing (by tribesmen) of a 20 Squadron Bristol Fighter F4626 to the East of Badama Post on 30th Jul 1919 during the 3rd Afghan War. In 20 Sqn operational record the date is given as 29 Jul but all other records (official history, ground unit war diaries and RAF weekly operational summary) are agreed on 30 Jul.  The pilot A/Capt George Eastwood was shot through the chest (and subsequently evacuated to the UK) while the observer, 2Lt David Lapraik, suffered facial lacerations. I have service records and casualty cards. Have I missed a source which might give me further information or can anyone tell me any more about the incident? The ground troops involvdd in the recovery of the crew and dismantling the aircraft were the Kurram Militia and a section from 22 Battery MMGS.

Thanks, Paul

[fetubi]

Hi Paul,

 

All I can add is that in some records on Bristol Fighters that our much-missed comrade Ray Sturtivant shared with me, that he has the date of the 30th as well.  He was a prodigous researcher, but the only other thing mentioned is the place name Simla, in relation to this event.

Hope it helps just a little.  It's a whole theatre that could be explored more... as you are clearly doing!  Hope you find out more.

 

Regards,

 

Trevor

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, fetubi said:

Hi Paul,

 

All I can add is that in some records on Bristol Fighters that our much-missed comrade Ray Sturtivant shared with me, that he has the date of the 30th as well.  He was a prodigous researcher, but the only other thing mentioned is the place name Simla, in relation to this event.

Hope it helps just a little.  It's a whole theatre that could be explored more... as you are clearly doing!  Hope you find out more.

 

Regards,

 

Trevor

 

Trevor thanks for this. My interest is my grandfather was a section i/c of 22 Bty and assisted the recovery of the aircrew. He states they were given First Aid and despatched to Kohat in one of his Ford trucks.  See my topic 22 Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors) post id 199. From Kohat they were then evac to Simla from where Eastwood continued to UK, and Lapraik returned to the Sqn for flying duties - the sqn op record records him as being involved in a bombing raid late Sep 19.

Best, Paul

, 

[pjwmacro]

@Kimberley John Lindsay

 

Kim, You asked "One wonders what, if anything, Major Dodd (or the Flyers) got? "

 

Dodd was I think made DSO but I have yet to establish exactly what for. In my view he certainly deserved one for his command of the Kurram Militia in 3rd Afghan War in essence he commanded the entire Kurram Theatre for the war.

 

Neither of the airman received anything - or so far as I know where decorated for anything during WW1 or the Afghan War. However, according to the 20Sqn Op Record, Eastwood once evacuated back to UK, was replaced by a  Capt GLENNY M.C. I have no idea what he was awarded the decoration for.

 

Regards, Paul

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Paul,

Yes, having been in command of the Kurram Militia during Third Afghan, would call for a DSO for Percy Charles Russell Dodd, Major, 21st  Lancers.

London Gazette 3 August 1920 (but apparently no Citation)..

Interestingly, I have the medals of Lieut G. A. Swift, who was attached Zhob Militia at the time of Third Afghan...

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

[topgun1918]

From the London Gazette of 17 September 1917 [award of the MC]:

 

2nd Lt. (T./Lt.) Arthur Willoughby Falls Glenny, A.S.C., and R.F.C.

 

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty when in co-operation with our artillery.  By dint of great perseverance, skill and very gallant flying he has accomplished splendid, work under very difficult circumstances.  On one occasion, during a gale of wind, he successfully ranged three of our heavy batteries upon an enemy battery, which was completely obliterated.  He has consistently set a very fine example to his squadron.

 

From the London Gazette of 26 July 1918 [award of Bar to the MC]:

 

Capt. Arthur Willaughby Falls Glenny, M.C., A.S.C., attd. R.A.F.

 

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty, both in reconnaissance and as an artillery observer.  On one occasion. although shot down, he brought in valuable information.  On several occasions he conducted successful knock-out shoots with various batteries, obtained excellent photographs, and did much work of a very high standard.

 

(M.C. gazetted 17th September, 1917.)

 

From the London Gazette of 3 December 1918 [award of the DFC]:

 

Capt. Arthur Willoughby Falls Glenny, M.C. (A.S.C.). (FRANCE)

 

This officer has rendered valuable and gallant service on many occasions when on photographic and other reconnaissances.  On 16th May, when directing fire on a hostile battery, he was attacked by twelve hostile scouts; his observer's gun jammed, and he was driven down to 2,000 feet, but, handling his machine with great skill, he avoided serious damage; after the scouts had been driven off he returned and carried on the shoot with successful results.  In this flight, which lasted four hours, he succeeded in taking fifteen photographs over corps' counter-battery area.

 

(M.C. gazetted 17th September, 1917; Bar to M.C. 26th July, 1918.)

 

Graeme

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Graeme,

Thanks for putting Capt Glenny, DFC, MC*, on the map.

Obviously a gallant and capable pilot, interestingly coming from the much looked-down upon ASC.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[pjwmacro]

Thank you to all for your contributions. Delighted for this thread to be used to commemorate Maj Dodd (31st not 21st Lancers), Lt Swift and Maj Glenny, However, accepting that I am also guilty of leading us off topic(!) grateful if we could bring this thread back onto the subject in handed - 20'Sqn's downed Bristol Fighter F4626.

 

Can anyone add anything to the information I have at post ID 1? Photos would be brilliant - I know i'm hopeful! I'm particularly interested in the extent to which the aircrew managed to dismantle the a/c.  The official histories would suggest they did - their injuries and my grandfathers account would suggest that they didn't. Any information grately appreciated.

 

Best Paul

Edited 17 July , 2017 by pjwmacro

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Paul,

The pilot was severely injured, but his Observer was not: therefore the latter could well have done considerable dismantling - perhaps under encouragement from the pilot?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[pjwmacro]

12 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear Paul,

The pilot was severely injured, but his Observer was not: therefore the latter could well have done considerable dismantling - perhaps under encouragement from the pilot?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Kim

I suspect it's a case of differing perspectives and accounts which will never tie up completely. The 20'Sqn op record says "pilot observer and aircraft were saved" - whatever saved means. The official history states the aircrew "roughly dismantled" the machine but neither the Kurram Militia or 22 MMGS Bty war diaries mention any aircrew contribution to this but concentrate on the recovery of bombs and guns (my grandfather?) on 30 Jul and instruments and engine on 31st.  The Kurram Militia diary states the observer was suffering from shock - not unreasonable if you just been shot down and had your face smashed up. Given the pilot was severely wounded (and given the Afghan record of treatment of captured personnel)  I reckon the observer would be more concerned with getting himself and the pilot to safety than in dismantling the aircraft. My grandfather recorded he was under sniper fire as he recovered the bombs and guns - and his MGs expended 50'rnds in covering fire. The Kurram Militia also lost a soldier at this stage.

But yes - be really interested to hear if there are any other accounts or thoughts.

Regards, Paul

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Paul,

Yes, I see what you mean.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[pjwmacro]

More about Capt George Eastwood here:

 

 

[pjwmacro]

More about the observer: David McGeachie Lapraik:

 

 

[pjwmacro]

Still be really interested to hear from anyone able to add to the story of the downing of the 20 Squadron Bristol Fighter F4626 to the East of Badama Post on 30th Jul 1919 during the 3rd Afghan War, particularly if you can confirm the stories of A/Capt George Eastwood and 2/Lt David McGeachie Lapraik - see separate threads at posts #12 and #13.

 

I now believe Eastwood was George Gerald (although the "Gerald" isn't included on his RAF paperwork, or 1901 and 1911 census returns) Eastwood b 22 May 1896 (not 1897 as stated in his RAF service record) and married Constance Coker b 27(or17) Jul 1897 at Peterborough in 1926.  I believe George and Constance had a son, Michael John Eastwood, b 21 Mar 1929 in Northamptonshire., who died in Q2 2004 in Truro.  George and Constance also died in Truro in 1977 and 1976 respectively. George also had 2 siblings - both younger, his sister Dorothy Marjorie, b 1898 and William Jnr b 1900.

 

I believe Michael John Eastwood probably married in Q4 1954 in Truro to a Loveday J Hocking, b registered in Truro for Q3 1933.  

 

David McGeachie LAPRAIK, was born 06 Dec 1899 and served both in the ranks (#110645) and was then commissioned (P246381).  After the war David married Elizabeth Simpson (I`m not sure exactly when) - who died in St Andrews Nursing Home Oxford in Feb 1995.  David died 8th August 1966, I believe childless.  There is at least one living descendant to whom Elizabeth was an Aunt.  There may well be Lapraik descendants as well, as David had brothers and sisters.

 

On the ground, units involved in operations to recover the aircrew and aircraft, included elements of:

• 22 Motor Machine Battery - with my grandfather A/Sjt Ernest Macro
• Kurram Militia - Maj PCR Dodd
• a couple of guns - probably from 28 Mountain Battery
• B and D Coy of the 3rd Battalion Guides Infantry.

Would really welcome any further information if anyone had relatives who might have been there or has accounts in their possession.

 

Regards, Paul

[charlesmessenger]

Paul

 

Just wondering whether your Lapraik was related to Ian Lapraik DSO MC, a highly distinguished WW2 Commando.

 

Charles M

[pjwmacro]

14 hours ago, charlesmessenger said:

Paul

 

Just wondering whether your Lapraik was related to Ian Lapraik DSO MC, a highly distinguished WW2 Commando.

 

Charles M

Not heard of Ian Lapraik before Charles - but I will look into it.  I`ll message you.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 06/02/2018 at 19:15, charlesmessenger said:

Paul

 

Just wondering whether your Lapraik was related to Ian Lapraik DSO MC, a highly distinguished WW2 Commando.

 

Charles M

 

Charles I can find no evidence of a link between David McGeachie and"Ian" (actually John Neilson) Lapraik. Leastwise I am certain they are not cousins or cousins once removed. Any possible link is further back.

Regards, Paul

[charlesmessenger]

Paul

 

Thanks for trying; it was just a passing thought.

 

Charles M

[pjwmacro]

The incident is mentioned (briefly) in a book called "The Frontier Scouts" by Charles Chevenix Trench, published in the mid 1980's.  But no detail that adds to what I know already.

There is also mention in the Part 1 of "The History of the Guides" by ‎Sir George Fletcher MacMunn - the involvement of 3rd Bn Guides Infantry in the action.

As before - grateful for any help.

 

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

Who is an expert on serial numbers? Can F4626 only be this particular Brisfit? Or could there be other types of a/c which use the same 4626 number?  And what is the significance of the letter.  I`ve seen a variety used - A though to G?

 

Regards, Paul

[topgun1918]

The aeroplane with the serial 4626 was a De Havilland 1/1A; A4626 was an R.E.8; B4626 was Sopwith Camel; C4626 was a Bristol Fighter; D4626 was a Handley Page O/400; E4626 was an Airco D.H.4; F4626 was a Bristol Fighter; H4626; was an Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 and N4626 was a Felixstowe F.5 flying boat.

So, yes, F4626 can be only this particular Bristol Fighter.

 

Graeme

 

[pjwmacro]

50 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

The aeroplane with the serial 4626 was a De Havilland 1/1A; A4626 was an R.E.8; B4626 was Sopwith Camel; C4626 was a Bristol Fighter; D4626 was a Handley Page O/400; E4626 was an Airco D.H.4; F4626 was a Bristol Fighter; H4626; was an Armstrong Whitworth F.K.8 and N4626 was a Felixstowe F.5 flying boat.

So, yes, F4626 can be only this particular Bristol Fighter.

 

Graeme

 

 

Graeme, many thanks.  So the number is not unique - but the letter is used to make a unique serial for a particular a/c.

 

Thank you.  Paul

[topgun1918]

Hi Paul

 

Once the numerical limit had been reached (ie, 9999) numbering began again at '1' but with the next letter prefix, so, 1-10000, A1 to A9999, B1 to B9999 et seq.

 

Graeme

 

Edited 6 September , 2018 by topgun1918

[pjwmacro]

@topgun1918

 

Graeme - many thanks, that's clear now.  Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

Still hoping that someone may be able to add to what I know on this incident.

 

Regards, Paul