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Remembered Today:

Forward slopes at First Ypres


bdykstra

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Post 48 illustrates the point. 2 Div learnt the lessons on the Aisne. 4 Corps,  new to Belgium, fresh, largely, from overseas postings, learned them at Ypres.

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From WO 95/1280 (3rd Brigade war diary). Looks like the Queens and the Welch took over trenches on the forward slope to defend Gheluvelt. Based on the maps in Military Operations 1914, vol. 2, readjusting 7th Division's old line to put the trenches on the reverse slopes would have required withdrawing up to a mile in some places and abandoning Gheluvelt in the process. In contrast, the 2/Grenadier Guards, when they relieved some elements of 3rd Cav Division near Zanvoorde, dug new trenches on the reverse slope, but it was only 300 yards behind the original on the crest line. 

queens.png.e01349913df51dfa2feeb599db43ff7f.png

 

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War Diary of the 1st Bn Grenadier Guards (20th Infantry Brigade, 7th Division) mentions the re-alignment of their trenches on Monday 19th Oct 1914

 

Full diary: 1st Bn Grenadier Guards

 

 

WAR DIARY - OCTOBER 1914

 

5th Oct 1914. Monday.

The remainder of the day was taken up by other troops embarking.

03:00. Both ships moved onto SOUTHAMPTON WATER and later proceeded to sea.

 

07:00. Both ships dropped anchor in DOVER STRAITS. About 21:00, having picked up the Pilots, they proceeded to sea.

 

6th Oct 1914. Tuesday.

03:00. Both ships moved onto SOUTHAMPTON WATER and later proceeded to sea.

 

7th Oct 1914. Wednesday.

06:00. 1st train load proceed to disembark at ZEEBRUGGE shortly following the other.

 

10:00. 1st train load, less Transport, proceeded by train to BRUGES where it went into billets. About 16:00 the second train load arrived at BRUGES. The Transport arrived by road shortly after midnight; the Battalion found local protection for itself in the town.

 

8th Oct 1914. Thursday.

The Battalion marched in Brigade to LEFFINGE where it took up a position South and West of the town. This movement was made with a view to covering the embarkation of the Cavalry Division and other troops at OSTEND which took place on that date. Three Companies were on outpost, one Company was sent to cover the remaining 3 Companies as they dug in.

 

9th Oct 1914. Friday.

17:30. Battalion proceeded in Brigade to OSTEND where the iron ration and 80 rounds per man were issued. On arrival at OSTEND, the Battalion proceeded later in the day by train to GHENT where it arrived in the evening and went, after 4 hours, into billets.

 

10th Oct 1914. Saturday.           

The Battalion remained in billets.

 

22:00. The Battalion was ordered to stand by for 1 hour. Later in the night King's Company were sent out on outpost.

 

11th Oct 1914. Sunday.

During the morning the outpost Company was withdrawn.

 

21:00. The Battalion paraded to march in Brigade to SOMERGEM (this move to GHENT was undertaken to cover the Naval Brigade retirement from ANTWERP). The Battalion found the Rear Guard to the column during the night march. The march was very trying; the Battalion on arrival at SOMERGEN went into billets with exception of No. 4 Company which went on outpost.

 

12th Oct 1914. Monday.

The Battalion arrived in SOMERGEM about 06:30 Monday 12th Oct.

 

The Battalion was ordered to be ready to move at a moments notice at 12:00 but did not move till 15:00. It then marched in Brigade to THIELT where it arrived after a most trying march at 23:00. This march was made very trying owing to the many checks which occurred at the head of the column. This was caused by artillery horses they allowed to water across the head of column.

 

13th Oct 1914. Tuesday.

10:00. The Battalion marched in Brigade to ROULERS but 4 miles out of THIELT the column was directed South where it prepared to assume the offensive if necessary. This was caused by the report that the enemy were advancing on THIELT and our supply column had to be protected if necessary. This report was however groundless and after 3 hours the column proceeded on its march again.

 

On arrival in ROULERS, the Brigade went into billets in the town.

 

14th Oct 1914. Wednesday.

08:30. The Battalion proceeded in Brigade to YPRES, the Advanced Guard under Lt Col M EARLE, consisted of ½ Battalion 1st Bn Grenadier Guards, 1 sub-section RE (pontoon) and 1 troop 1/1st Northumberland Hussars (TF). Guns were heard to the East but nothing more of the enemy. The Battalion proceeded through the town and went on outpost covering the roads to the South. King’s Company, Nos. 3 and 4 Companies were on outpost.

 

About 17:00, three German Dragoons of the II Nicholas Regiment were shot by No. 4 Company on the West. These men had originally fired on our scouts. It has since been known that all three of the enemy have died. This was the first time the Battalion or any unit of the 7th Division had inflicted any damage on the enemy.

 

At 18:00 a message was received that the Battalion was to stand to arms as a column of the enemy was reported advancing from the South East along the MENIN road. The Headquarters and Reserve Company (No. 2) at once proceeded to dig themselves in and put their positioning through state of defence. This was however difficult owing to the darkness.

 

At 20:00 the situation changed, the Headquarters and Reserve Company were ordered into their billets.

 

21:00. Lt T E R SYMONS, with 1 Platoon, proceeded to village of VOORMEZELE outside outpost line and remained there during the night.

 

15th Oct 1914. Thursday.

Battalion went into reserve and the two Battalions of 2nd Bn Border Regiment and 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders proceeded through outpost line South East to entrench a position facing South East. The Battalion went into billets and had a rest day.

 

16th Oct 1914. Friday.

The Brigade moved to about ZANDVOORDE. The Battalion found the Advanced Guard under the CO. Owing to the fog the progress was slow. The Battalion furnished outposts and entrenched themselves.

 

17th Oct 1914. Saturday.

The Battalion remained at ZANDVOORDE.

 

18th Oct 1914. Sunday.

The position of the trenches were modified today owing to the 2nd Bn Scots Guards advancing to KRUISEIK.

 

19th Oct 1914. Monday.

The Battalion moved to KRUISEIK with the view of attacking the enemy about GHELUWE When the Battalion deployed, orders were given to us to retire and occupy trenches made by the 2nd Bn Scots Guards and much work was put into these trenches in the afternoon.

 

At dark however, the 21st Infantry Brigade withdrew and the Commanding Officer obtained leave to draw back his line to some support trenches nearly a kilometre in rear. The line then ran from the South edge of the ridge on which KRUISEIK stands to the crossroads to MENIN and covering a distance of 1,500 yards. The trenches were originally support trenches and not sited either with the view of field of fire or with the view of forming a link in a defensive position.

 

By day the position was held by two Companies and at night the four Companies were out on the ridge. By day two Companies were in support below the crest in trenches in rear of the left centre which seemed to the Commanding Officer to be the most dangerous flank.

 

20th Oct 1914. Tuesday.

The work of entrenching was continued during the morning and at 12:00 the attack on the… [diary cuts short]

 

20th Oct 1914 - 6th Nov 1914.

The period from 20th Oct 1914 to 6th Nov 1914 was occupied in continuous fighting during which the 1st Bn Grenadier Guards was very heavily engaged. It was not possible at that time to keep a diary.

 

After the Battalion was withdrawn to MÉTEREN I believe the diary was made up. The information at present in the diary was entered by the then Commanding Officer, Lt Col M EARLE DSO and myself as Adjutant, some time before the end of Oct 1914.

 

I could complete the diary myself up to 6th Nov or thereabouts had I the correct dates and my rough notes which are now in England.

 

Maj G RASCH

3rd Bn Grenadier Guards

 

30/1/1916

WAR DIARY – NOVEMBER 1914

 

4th Nov 1914.

The 7th Infantry Brigade took over the trenches held by the Battalion which then marched with the remainder of the 20th Infantry Brigade under Maj CATOR via YPRES to LOCRE, where the Battalion was billeted in a church.

 

5th Nov 1914.

[No diary entry]

 

6th Nov 1914.

The 20th Infantry Brigade continued its march and on the evening of the 6th Nov it went into billets at MÉTEREN.

 

7th Nov 1914.

The Battalion was organized into one Company owing to the shortage of Officers, the total strength being 4 Officers and 406 men. Rifles and equipment were inspected and indents made for deficiencies.

 

8th Nov 1914.

Battalion continued to be re-equipped, Church parade service at 10:00.

 

9th Nov 1914.

The Battalion had an hour’s bull in the morning. In the afternoon the GOC 7th Division assembled the Brigade and said a few words on the work of the last month.

 

10th Nov 1914.

[No diary entry]

 

11th Nov 1914.

Maj G W DUBERLY, Capt Hon R LYGON, Lts E S WARD and C A V SYKES joined the Battalion with 401 men.

 

12th Nov 1914.

Lt C L BLUNDELL-HOLLINSHEAD-BLUNDELL and 2 Lt C V FISHER-ROWE joined the Battalion with 133 men.

 

The afternoon was spent in re-organizing the Battalion and posting the Draft to Companies.

 

13th Nov 1914.

Battalion had an hour’s parade in the morning, the rest of the day spent in re-equipping.

 

14th Nov 1914.

Parade 07:30. Passed through BAILLEUL, STEENWERCK, had dinners at BAC ST MAUR. Left 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders in reserve, started at 17:00 to relieve Leicestershire Regiment in the 19th Infantry Brigade in the trenches.

 

15th Nov 1914.

Lt E S WARD wounded in the arm.

 

16th Nov 1914.

Lt Lord CLAUD N HAMILTON went to hospital with a sprained ankle.

 

17th Nov 1914.

Maj C E CORKRAN arrived to command the Battalion.

2 Lt C S ROWLEY joined the Battalion.

 

18th Nov 1914.

The Commanding Officer reconnoitred our section of trenches with a view to improving our line.

 

19th Nov 1914.

[No diary entry]

 

20th Nov 1914.

Capts J A MORRISON and Earl STANHOPE, together with 2 Lts Lord W W BRABOURNE, Lord WILLIAM R PERCY and 2 Lt RHYS WILLIAMS joined the Battalion with 100 men.

 

21st Nov 1914.

Weather changed to snow.

 

22nd Nov 1914.

Very cold, number of men suffering from frostbite.

23rd Nov 1914.

Skin coats were issued to the men, also some white smocks for patrol duty at nights in the snow.

 

24th Nov 1914.

The weather changed to rain. The quality of the food is excellent. The Battalion is well fed and clothed. The sickness is the result of frostbite owing to the sudden change from the wet weather to extreme cold.

 

25th Nov 1914.

[No diary entry]

 

26th Nov 1914.

The Battalion were relieved in the trenches by the 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders and 2nd Bn Border Regiment. ½ Battalion marched to Brigade Reserve in RUE DU QUESNES, ½ Battalion to Divisional Reserve near SAILLY.

 

27th Nov 1914.

Battalion spent the day in washing and cleaning.

 

28th Nov 1914.

[No diary entry]

 

29th Nov 1914.

GOC 7th Division inspected the Divisional Reserve. Lt Col L R FISHER-ROWE arrived to take over command of the Battalion.

 

Lt C MITCHELL and 2 Lt M A A DARBY, with 2 NCOs, proceeded to England. on a week's leave.

 

Marched back to our trenches to relieve the 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders and 2nd Bn Border Regiment.

 

30th Nov 1914.

The Brigadier inspected our trenches. The supplies of clothing and equipment are well maintained with the exception of the boots which are poor in quality. Large size boots, necessary for our men, are difficult to obtain.

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I won't comment on this thread any further, but I don't see the point in posting the full battalion war diary of 1/Grenadier Guards in reply to a post concerning 2/Grenadier Guards...

 

The re-alignment of 1/Grenadier Guards after 19 October 1914 was done as the British attack towards Menen and Kortrijk had to be aborted and they had to retreat a bit to avoid the lines being too extended. The new position of 1/Grenadier Guards was basically on a forward slope of the Kruiseik Ridge, running from Kruiseecke to Nieuwe Kruiseecke.

Edited by AOK4
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3 hours ago, AOK4 said:

I won't comment on this thread any further, but I don't see the point in posting the full battalion war diary of 1/Grenadier Guards in reply to a post concerning 2/Grenadier Guards...

 

The re-alignment of 1/Grenadier Guards after 19 October 1914 was done as the British attack towards Menen and Kortrijk had to be aborted and they had to retreat a bit to avoid the lines being too extended. The new position of 1/Grenadier Guards was basically on a forward slope of the Kruiseik Ridge, running from Kruiseecke to Nieuwe Kruiseecke.

 

It wasn't in response to 2nd Bn GG...it was an example of how the line was re-aligned and also illustrates how much movement there was and improvement of trenches etc. I think it conveys some idea of just how fluid the situation was......it just happens to also be GG. Incidentally 2nd Bn GG diary does not mention Zandvoorde once in 88,000 words. ...but 1st Bn GG does in mid Oct 1914, the period we are generally discussing. It also illustrates the consequences of the position - the Battalion being reduced to a shadow of its former strength - reduced to one Company - which I think is important context.

 

Since you are focused on 2nd Bn GG...here is their War Diary for same period. I have every Battalion diary transcribed so take your pick. Some have fascinating detail on Ypres 1914. MG

 

WAR DIARY - OCTOBER 1914

 

1st Oct 1914. 

Remain at CHAVONNE in entrenched position

 

2nd Oct 1914. 

Remain at CHAVONNE.

Lost 1 man wounded

 

3rd Oct 1914. 

Remain at CHAVONNE.

Lost 1 man killed and 1 man wounded

 

4th Oct 1914. 

Remain at CHAVONNE.

 

5th Oct 1914. 

Remain at CHAVONNE.

1 man killed

 

6th – 12th Oct 1914. 

Remain at CHAVONNE.

 

13th Oct 1914. 

Relieved by French Infantry and marched at 02:10 to PERLES arrived 05:30 and billeted.

 

14th Oct 1914. 

Marche at 04:00 to FISMES and entrained at 07:00. Passed PARIS and AMIENS.

 

15th Oct 1914. 

Passed CALAIS and detrained at HAZEBROUCK at 08:00. Marched into town and billetted.

 

16th Oct 1914. 

Remained in HAZEBROUCK.

 

17th Oct 1914. 

Marched at 07:00. To BOESCHEPE and billeted.

 

18th Oct 1914. 

Remained at BOESCHEPE.

 

19th Oct 1914. 

Remained at BOESCHEPE.

Capt M E M C MAITLAND, Capt R H V CAVENDISH, Lt J S HUGHES & Lt I St C ROSE joined

 

20th Oct 1914. 

Left BOESCHEPE at 06:00. Headquarters billeted at Farm NE of YPRES at 17:00 Battalion entrenched East of ST JEAN.

 

21st Oct 1914. 

Marched at 6 am to position of assembly near HANNEBECK BROOK about 2 miles west of ZONNEBEKE. Then advanced about 1½ miles towards PASSCHENDAELE meeting with some opposition, eventually entrenched a line –

 

3rd Bn Coldstream Guards on left,

2nd Bn Grenadier Guards in centre,

2nd Bn Coldstream Guards right,

 

Counter attack at dusk beaten off. Germans came on saying we are the Coldstream.

6 men wounded.

 

22nd Oct 1914. 

Remained in entrenched position improved trenches

 

23rd Oct 1914. 

Remained in positions reinforced by French troops.

Lt F W J M MILLER killed, Capt M E MAKGILL-CRICHTON-MAITLAND wounded and 6 men wounded

 

24th Oct 1914. 

Moved at 2:30 am on relief by French troops to farm 1 mile NE of YPRES rested till 11:00. Marched 11:00 to EKSTERNEST and placed in reserve to 6th Infantry Brigade

 

25th Oct 1914. 

Marched at 08:00 and halted in position of readiness near POLYGONE WOOD. Late in afternoon started to attack REUTEL. Attack did not get far and at dusk took up battle outpost line on Eastern edge of REUTEL woods and Chateau grounds.

 

26th Oct 1914. 

Remained in Battle outpost line about REUTEL woods and Chateau.

 

1 man killed

6 wounded

 

27th Oct 1914. 

Remained in trenches near REUTEL.

 

2 killed

1 wounded

 

28th Oct 1914. 

Relived by Cameron Highlanders and Black Watch about 05:45. Ordered to march 09:30 to be in readiness to support attack of 5th & 6th Brigades on BECELAERE. Remained in reserve on Northern edge of POLYGONE wood and bivouacked in wood at night.

1 Sergt wounded.

 

29th Oct 1914. 

Remained in position and entrenched Southern edge of POLYGONE wood. No. 2 Company sent to support Cameron Highlanders in Chateau which was heavily attacked, they lost 2 killed and 7 wounded

 

30th Oct 1914. 

Remained in position in morning and improved trenches. 7th Division and Cavalry on right. Heavily shelled and attacked at 15:00.

 

1st Bn Irish Guards, 2nd Bn Grenadier Guards and Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry moved 4 miles to right to relieve Cavalry near KLEIN ZILLEBEKE. Dug trenches till after midnight South of KLEIN ZILLEBEKE.

 

2 killed

5 wounded

4 missing

 

 

 

31st Oct 1914. 

Heavily shelled all day with heavy High Explosive shells and also attacked by Infantry. Well dug in. Shelling terrific. No supplies all day till after midnight. One SAA Cart, Horses & drivers blown to pieces.

 

Lt I St C ROSE wounded,

4 NCOs & men killed

32 wounded

4 missing.

1st Line transport moved back to KRUISKALSIJDE HALTE

 

 

 

WAR DIARY - NOVEMBER 1914

 

1st Nov 1914. 

Relieved from trenches near KLEIN ZILLEBEKE by French troops at 03:00 went back about 2 miles and bivouacked for 2 or 3 hours, ordered to march to support 2nd Brigade which was hard pressed and had line broken. Sent to clear Wood of KLEIN ZILLEBEKE and to restore line, cleared wood and entrenched at Southern edge close up to enemy. No food till very late. All very tired and short of sleep.

 

10 killed

29 wounded

8 missing

 

2nd Nov 1914. 

Germans attacked our trenches in the morning but were driven off with heavy losses, Machine Gun causing them great damage. Intermittent attacks and shelling all day. Sharp attacks at dusk on No. 4 Company’s trenches which was driven off with heavy loss but Germans got within 25 yards of our trenches.

 

4 killed

12 wounded

1 missing

 

3rd Nov 1914. 

Still in trenches at KLEIN ZILLEBEKE Some shelling and continued sniping at trenches.

 

4th Nov 1914. 

Same position. Very heavy shelling most of the day. No real Infantry attack but enemy entrenching about 300 yards away. Very wet.

1st line trenches shelled and moved back through YPRES to farm near DICKEBUSCH

 

4 killed

26 wounded

 

 

 

5th Nov 1914. 

Remained in trenches at KLEIN ZILLEBEKE. Shelled most of the day and continually sniped.

 

3 killed

5 wounded

 

6th Nov 1914. 

French on right driven back and line broken. 1st Bn Irish Guards on immediate right also driven back. We were hard pressed and had to repulse our right when 1st Bn Irish Guards retired our left held firm. Household Cavalry counter attacked with great loss stopped German advance. Lt Lord H B F CONGLETON's platoon which was our only reserve filled up gap. A trying and critical day.

 

Lt TUFNELL killed

Lt DOWLING wounded

7 NCOs & men killed

68 wounded

 

7th Nov 1914. 

Remained in trenches at KLEIN ZILLEBEKE. 3rd and 22nd INF BDEs made counter attack to gain lost ground but only partially successful. During previous night had refused our right and taken up new and continuous line through wood our left remaining in former position. Shelled most of the day. Enemy's Infantry advanced but driven back. Maintained position.

 

19 killed

46 wounded

3 missing

 

8th Nov 1914. 

Remained in positions. Other units relieved. 1/14th (County of London) Bn London Regiment (London Scottish) (TF) occupied position on our right in relief of Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and 2nd Bn Royal Sussex Regiment. Lots of shelling and sniping.

 

1 killed

2 wounded

 

 

 

9th Nov 1914. 

Remained in position, lot of shelling and sniping all day. About 6 pm heavy rifle fire and machine gun fire.

 

1 killed

5 wounded

 

10th Nov 1914. 

Remained in position, terrific shelling with heavy high explosives many trenches blown in holding on though, possibly the most trying day they have yet experienced. Many men were buried in their trenches unable to get them all out.

 

Major LORD B C GORDON LENNOX, Lt M G STOCKS and Lt H F B LORD CONGLETON killed. Capt E G H POWELL, Capt E D RIDLEY and Lt TUDWAY wounded.

 

21 killed

37 wounded

16 missing

 

11th Nov 1914. 

Relieved by Welsh and Royal Munster Fusiliers about 1 am and marched to BELLEWAARDE FARM for rest in Corps Reserve. Moved at 09:30 am to HOOGE CHATEAU in readiness to support 1st Brigade who were heavily attacked by Prussian Guard. Shelled in Chateau grounds in afternoon. Advanced about 15:30 towards BOSSCHEN WOOD coming under severe shrapnel fire as we crossed open. Halted under edge of wood at dusk. Bitter cold and heavy rain.

 

Orders to retire to HOOGE CHATEAU and get food and be back ready to attack at 2 am.

 

Capt E J L PIKE wounded.

1 killed

28 wounded

1 missing

 

12th Nov 1914. 

Marched at 00:30 from HOOGE CHATEAU to rendezvous at VERBOEK FARM (1st Brigade's Head Quarters).  Moved off at 03:00; 1st Bn Irish Guards in front followed by 2nd Bn Grenadier Guards. General Sir FITZCLARENCE at head of column with a view to take up a position of readiness for attack of German trenches south of POLYGONE WOOD. Came under sharp fire on march which threw 1st Bn Irish Guards into confusion and killed General FITZCLARENCE. Battalion reached West end of POLYGONE WOOD when attack was counter-ordered and battalions ordered back to HOOGE CHATEAU No. 4 Company being left to entrench in opening between BOSSCHEN WOOD and MENIN ROAD. Arrived at CHATEAU at 06:00 after ½ hour placed under orders of 1st Division and ordered to HERENTHAGE WOOD on the MENIN ROAD to be in close support of the firing line with orders to counter attack if the Germans broke through.

 

Battalion cold, wet and tired out and had little food as there had been no opportunity to draw supplies. Considerable shelling

 

1 killed

12 wounded

3 missing

 

13th Nov 1914. 

Still in support in HERENTHAGE WOOD. Wet and cold. Shelled but little damage done. Ordered to move back a mile to CHATEAU at 21:00 arrived 23:00 and at once ordered to move on again to be in reserve in big wood south of HOOGE.

 

1 wounded

3 missing

 

14th Nov 1914. 

02:00 go into Corps Reserve together with 1/14th (County of London) Bn London Regiment (London Scottish) (TF) in wood South of HOOGE. Country a sea of mud. Moved at 21:00 to KLEIN ZILLEBEKE big wood into 4th Guards Brigade again, took over trenches from Royal Munster Fusiliers. No. 4 Company in Battalion Reserve.

 

15th Nov 1914. 

Remained in position, very cold, rain and snow.

 

1 killed

4 wounded

1 missing

 

16th Nov 1914. 

Remain in position. Cold and wet. No. 3 Company in reserve

1 wounded

5 missing

 

17th Nov 1914. 

Remain in position. 4th Guards Brigade Headquarters shelled out with heavy loss in Orderlies and Horses. Terrific shelling in morning, heavy attack followed about 1 pm the brunt falling on No. 1 and No. 2 Companies. Reinforced No. 2 with part of No. 3 Company and attack repulsed with great slaughter.

 

Battalion fired over 24,000 rounds Small Arms Ammunition.

 

Capt C SYMES THOMPSON and Lt J H G LEE-STEERS killed

10 killed

7 wounded

also lost 6 horses by shell fire

 

18th Nov 1914. 

Same position. Shelled but not so much as yesterday. Relieved about 23:00 by 3rd Bn Coldstream Guards and marched to ST JEAN and billet. Snow and very hard frost.

 

3 killed

22 wounded

Some of No. 1 Companies trenches blown in today.

 

19th Nov 1914. 

Remain as ST JEAN. Very severe frost orders received for I Corps to move back for rest and refit tomorrow night.

 

20th Nov 1914. 

Ordered to Rendezvous on the YPRES main road at 22:45. 1/1st Bn Hertfordshire Regiment (TF) did not arrive, waited in bitter cold and snow till midnight then moved off and marched to OUDERDOM and bivouacked for hot meal. Severe frost and snow.

 

21st Nov 1914. 

After hot meal at OUDERDOM marched into billets at METEREN arriving at 08:30. Snow and severe frost

 

22nd – 30th Nov 1914. 

Remain in billets at METEREN. Refit. Short leave granted to Officers and selected NCOs.

 

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The challenges of positioning troops on forwards slopes were not confined to the immediate area of Ypres. Further south at Messines it has similar consequences:

 

11th Hussars noting their forward slope position on 2nd Nov near Messines; perfectly illustrating the rather large advantage the enemy artillery observers had. 

 

2nd Nov 1914. MESSINES. The night passed quietly.  

 

At 6:30 am we were informed that 5th Dragoon Guards had retired with exception of 2 troops because their trenches were exposed to shell fire.  They had a few casualties effecting the retirement. 

 

7:00 am.  By now a furious fire was in progress near WYTSCHAETE and about LE GHEER to the South.  

 

At 8:00 am we saw French retiring from WYTSCHAETE and soon our action commenced on our front, with very heavy shell fire ranged perfectly on our trenches, which was on the forward slope of the hill and must have been visible to the enemy's gunners on the MESSINES ridge.  

 

9:00 am.  The French on our left now behind to give way with the result that C Sqn trenches came under enfilade fire from enemy's machine guns.  C Sqn were ordered to retire and soon A and B Sqns also retired as they were in turn out-flanked,  losing several men whilst  doing so.  C Sqn fell back to the farm halfway down our side of the hill.  A and B Sqns retiring to the line of the WULVERGHEM - LINDENHOEK Road, the 5th Dragoon Guards coming up to support the retirement.  

 

Several batteries coming into action near WULVERGHEM kept the ridge neutral ground.  Gen DE LISLE ordered the trenches to be retaken and C Sqn moved forward and took up a position near their former line close to the farm which was now burning furiously.  A Sqn moving in support to the farm halfway up the hill.  B Sqn in reserve on road where the 5th Dragoon Guards also were.  

 

4:00 pm.  Shell fire now commenced to slacken and on a report from C Sqn that enemy were coming on again.  A and B Sqns moved up supported by the 5th Dragoon Guards.  The attack however came to nothing and when it was dark we occupied our original trenches with 5th Dragoon Guards on our right and a French Battalion on our left.  

 

Casualties:  1 man  killed, 1 Officer (Lt A R W CURTIS) and 20 men wounded. 

10:00 pm.  The 4th Dragoon Guards were to relieve us at 6:30 pm they came up at 7:30 pm but did not relieve us until after 10:00 pm.  We returned to BREWERY INN South of KEMMEL to billets arriving 11:30 pm.

 

If anyone is interested in reading more, the 11th Hussars war diary is here. It is a rather detailed diary by the standards of the day. There is also an illustrated version which utilises photo taken by its CO Lt Col Tom Pitman. Photos are courtesy of HorsePower Museum.

 

 

5th Dragoon Guards War Diary

 

1st Nov 1914. During the early morning the line at MESSINES returned to trenches previously dug by the Connaught Rangers on the ridge in front of WULVERGHEM.  The Regiment marched at 8:30 am and hid in a wood close to LINDENHOEK as a support  to the 2nd Cavalry Brigade - The London Scottish and the Oxford Hussars.  Our artillery were behind the low ridge immediately South of LINDENHOEK.  In the afternoon the Regiment marched to a farm on the WULVERGHEM - MESSINES Road and took over trenches from the 2nd Cavalry Brigade and London Scottish.  The Queen's Bays held the right of the line with their right on the WULVERGHEM - MESSINES Road.  The 11th Hussars on the left - the 5th Dragoon Guards in the centre with one troop pushed out holding a farm and wood 400 yards in front of our centre under Lt COLLIER JOHNSTON, who had been slightly wounded the day before.  No night attack took place but there was heavy sniping.  There was no wire in front of our trenches which we've sited on the crest line and were visible to the enemy's guns.

 

2nd Nov 1914. The Regiment was shelled early in the morning and was withdrawn with slight loss under the crest.  Lt COLLIER JOHNSTON troop held the farm for some time and eventually withdrew after burning it.  The Regiment held the WULVERGHEM - LINDENHOEK road until dusk when it reoccupied the trenches.  The Oxford Hussars relieved the Regiment at 9:00 pm and the Regiment went into billets at WULVERGHEM as a close support.  WULVERGHEM was shelled during the day and by night only occasionally.

 

 

2nd Dragoon Guards War Diary 

 

2nd Nov 1914. Remained in trenches all day being heavily shelled and unable to move.  The 11th Hussars and 5th Dragoon Guards evacuated their trenches and we were very anxious about our left at one time.  Relieved by 2nd Cavalry Brigade at 8:00 pm.  Billeted in NEUVE EGLISE.

 

3rd Hussars War Diary

 

1st Nov 1914. After returning from supporting the counter attack by the London Scottish, directed on the windmill half a kilometre north of MESSINES on the road to WYTSCHAETE, the Regiment retired at dusk via hill Pt 75 to a farm just north-east of it and on the southern side of the KEMMEL Road, horses remaining at KEMMEL.  

 

12:15 am.  Our Brigadier came to the farm and informed us that the Germans had made a heavy attack on the trenches between WYTSCHAETE and MESSINES and that the line had been broken in the middle.  The Lincolnshire Regt from close in rear of the farm were being pushed up to WYTSCHAETE at once to make a counter attack and the 5th Fusiliers were also coming up.  

 

The Regiment proceeded at once to the windmill on hill Pt 75 and took up a position facing east thence to the WYTSCHAETE-WULVERGHEN Road.  Efforts were made with the very limited supply of spades at disposal to entrench this position.  Meanwhile, heavy firing was going on in front and the long bullets began to whistle over our line.  Reconnaissance pushed up to the position held overnight by the London Scottish Reserve Coy reported that this Battalion was falling back and our position was then notified to the CO who was asked to retire clear of our right so as not to mask our fire.  About the same time also some of the 57th Native Infantry had arrived from the rear and these began to take up and entrench a position close alongside the windmill and in rear of our line which was on the forward slope, as giving a better field of fire.  

 

As daylight approached, the firing in front became still heavier, especially in our direction, and soon figures could be observed making our way.  Orders had been given that nobody was to fire without orders on account of the difficulty in telling friend from foe.  The approaching figures eventually turned out to be London Scottish, Lincolnshire Regt, Carabiniers, all indiscriminately mixed up, many of the two former being wounded.  The London Scottish rallied to our right flank after passing our trenches, the Carabiniers to our left and the Lincolnshire Regt in rear.  The Household Cavalry also was rallied to our left rear where two Coys of the 5th Fusiliers had taken up a position.  

 

Shortly before 8:00 am, our RHA Batteries began a terrific bombardment of WYTSCHAETE and the STEENEBOEK valley and at once the rifle fire directed on our position ceased.  For a time nothing could be seen in the valley and any Germans there may have been advancing thence against us must have either retired again over the ridge or else been killed by their own shells, which were also directed over the same area.  A few heavy howitzer shells were fired at our windmill to the alarm of the men of the 57th and several at the farms we had billeted in overnight, then all became quiet.  Touch had meanwhile been established with the 9th Lancers on our right.  

 

At noon, our position was taken over by the 3rd Cavalry Brigade (16th Lancers) and the Regiment retired towards KEMMEL.  The led horses had already been brought up to just east of that place and we thence moved to just south-east of LA CLYTTE in which neighbourhood we billeted for the night.  

Fine day but heavy rain in the night.  Numerous French troops now coming up towards KEMMEL.  

 

 

Edited by Guest
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^ Great stuff. I for one welcome the transcribed war diaries. 

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5 hours ago, bdykstra said:

^ Great stuff. I for one welcome the transcribed war diaries. 

I agree fully.  More information about the events and the responses of the participants is more likely to increase our

understanding rather than less documentation and an impatience or unwillingness to explore the available sources

and their implications.  Stellar work, Martin!  Read in combination with the Le Cateau thread, both threads have

greatly increased my understanding of what the BEF faced during its initial four months of war in France and Flanders

and how much they accomplished.

Josquin

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Angelsey in A History of the British Cavalry Vol VII page 214

 

30th Oct 1914.

 

"[The German] assault fell chiefly on the Household Cavalry's elementary trench lines at Zandvoorde. The Artillery barrage dropped on these and on the zone immediately behind them from 6:45 till 8 a.m. It and the following onslaught were so ferocious and concentrated that two squadrons and a machine gun section suffered almost total extinction. Ernest Hook  surviving Lifeguardsman recalled that there was "no protection from the shelling as our trenches were on the forward slope and in full view of the enemy and although our gunners put up a great show they were no match for Jerry's heavy stuff"".

 

Edited by Guest
typos
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Interestingly, Angelsey's coverage of the cavalry at Ypres is fairly perfunctory. From memory he does rather more that claim that their role, effectively as infantry, ruled out any detailed analysis! I have always thought this extremely odd.

Edited by David Filsell
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On 6/30/2017 at 09:29, QGE said:

The challenges of positioning troops on forwards slopes were not confined to the immediate area of Ypres. Further south at Messines it has similar consequences:

 

11th Hussars noting their forward slope position on 2nd Nov near Messines; perfectly illustrating the rather large advantage the enemy artillery observers had. 

 

2nd Nov 1914. MESSINES. The night passed quietly.  

 

At 6:30 am we were informed that 5th Dragoon Guards had retired with exception of 2 troops because their trenches were exposed to shell fire.  They had a few casualties effecting the retirement. 

 

7:00 am.  By now a furious fire was in progress near WYTSCHAETE and about LE GHEER to the South.  

 

At 8:00 am we saw French retiring from WYTSCHAETE and soon our action commenced on our front, with very heavy shell fire ranged perfectly on our trenches, which was on the forward slope of the hill and must have been visible to the enemy's gunners on the MESSINES ridge.  

 

9:00 am.  The French on our left now behind to give way with the result that C Sqn trenches came under enfilade fire from enemy's machine guns.  C Sqn were ordered to retire and soon A and B Sqns also retired as they were in turn out-flanked,  losing several men whilst  doing so.  C Sqn fell back to the farm halfway down our side of the hill.  A and B Sqns retiring to the line of the WULVERGHEM - LINDENHOEK Road, the 5th Dragoon Guards coming up to support the retirement.  

 

Several batteries coming into action near WULVERGHEM kept the ridge neutral ground.  Gen DE LISLE ordered the trenches to be retaken and C Sqn moved forward and took up a position near their former line close to the farm which was now burning furiously.  A Sqn moving in support to the farm halfway up the hill.  B Sqn in reserve on road where the 5th Dragoon Guards also were.  

 

4:00 pm.  Shell fire now commenced to slacken and on a report from C Sqn that enemy were coming on again.  A and B Sqns moved up supported by the 5th Dragoon Guards.  The attack however came to nothing and when it was dark we occupied our original trenches with 5th Dragoon Guards on our right and a French Battalion on our left.  

 

Casualties:  1 man  killed, 1 Officer (Lt A R W CURTIS) and 20 men wounded. 

10:00 pm.  The 4th Dragoon Guards were to relieve us at 6:30 pm they came up at 7:30 pm but did not relieve us until after 10:00 pm.  We returned to BREWERY INN South of KEMMEL to billets arriving 11:30 pm.

 

If anyone is interested in reading more, the 11th Hussars war diary is here. It is a rather detailed diary by the standards of the day. There is also an illustrated version which utilises photo taken by its CO Lt Col Tom Pitman. Photos are courtesy of HorsePower Museum.

 

 

5th Dragoon Guards War Diary

 

1st Nov 1914. During the early morning the line at MESSINES returned to trenches previously dug by the Connaught Rangers on the ridge in front of WULVERGHEM.  The Regiment marched at 8:30 am and hid in a wood close to LINDENHOEK as a support  to the 2nd Cavalry Brigade - The London Scottish and the Oxford Hussars.  Our artillery were behind the low ridge immediately South of LINDENHOEK.  In the afternoon the Regiment marched to a farm on the WULVERGHEM - MESSINES Road and took over trenches from the 2nd Cavalry Brigade and London Scottish.  The Queen's Bays held the right of the line with their right on the WULVERGHEM - MESSINES Road.  The 11th Hussars on the left - the 5th Dragoon Guards in the centre with one troop pushed out holding a farm and wood 400 yards in front of our centre under Lt COLLIER JOHNSTON, who had been slightly wounded the day before.  No night attack took place but there was heavy sniping.  There was no wire in front of our trenches which we've sited on the crest line and were visible to the enemy's guns.

 

2nd Nov 1914. The Regiment was shelled early in the morning and was withdrawn with slight loss under the crest.  Lt COLLIER JOHNSTON troop held the farm for some time and eventually withdrew after burning it.  The Regiment held the WULVERGHEM - LINDENHOEK road until dusk when it reoccupied the trenches.  The Oxford Hussars relieved the Regiment at 9:00 pm and the Regiment went into billets at WULVERGHEM as a close support.  WULVERGHEM was shelled during the day and by night only occasionally.

 

 

2nd Dragoon Guards War Diary 

 

2nd Nov 1914. Remained in trenches all day being heavily shelled and unable to move.  The 11th Hussars and 5th Dragoon Guards evacuated their trenches and we were very anxious about our left at one time.  Relieved by 2nd Cavalry Brigade at 8:00 pm.  Billeted in NEUVE EGLISE.

 

3rd Hussars War Diary

 

1st Nov 1914. After returning from supporting the counter attack by the London Scottish, directed on the windmill half a kilometre north of MESSINES on the road to WYTSCHAETE, the Regiment retired at dusk via hill Pt 75 to a farm just north-east of it and on the southern side of the KEMMEL Road, horses remaining at KEMMEL.  

 

12:15 am.  Our Brigadier came to the farm and informed us that the Germans had made a heavy attack on the trenches between WYTSCHAETE and MESSINES and that the line had been broken in the middle.  The Lincolnshire Regt from close in rear of the farm were being pushed up to WYTSCHAETE at once to make a counter attack and the 5th Fusiliers were also coming up.  

 

The Regiment proceeded at once to the windmill on hill Pt 75 and took up a position facing east thence to the WYTSCHAETE-WULVERGHEN Road.  Efforts were made with the very limited supply of spades at disposal to entrench this position.  Meanwhile, heavy firing was going on in front and the long bullets began to whistle over our line.  Reconnaissance pushed up to the position held overnight by the London Scottish Reserve Coy reported that this Battalion was falling back and our position was then notified to the CO who was asked to retire clear of our right so as not to mask our fire.  About the same time also some of the 57th Native Infantry had arrived from the rear and these began to take up and entrench a position close alongside the windmill and in rear of our line which was on the forward slope, as giving a better field of fire.  

 

As daylight approached, the firing in front became still heavier, especially in our direction, and soon figures could be observed making our way.  Orders had been given that nobody was to fire without orders on account of the difficulty in telling friend from foe.  The approaching figures eventually turned out to be London Scottish, Lincolnshire Regt, Carabiniers, all indiscriminately mixed up, many of the two former being wounded.  The London Scottish rallied to our right flank after passing our trenches, the Carabiniers to our left and the Lincolnshire Regt in rear.  The Household Cavalry also was rallied to our left rear where two Coys of the 5th Fusiliers had taken up a position.  

 

Shortly before 8:00 am, our RHA Batteries began a terrific bombardment of WYTSCHAETE and the STEENEBOEK valley and at once the rifle fire directed on our position ceased.  For a time nothing could be seen in the valley and any Germans there may have been advancing thence against us must have either retired again over the ridge or else been killed by their own shells, which were also directed over the same area.  A few heavy howitzer shells were fired at our windmill to the alarm of the men of the 57th and several at the farms we had billeted in overnight, then all became quiet.  Touch had meanwhile been established with the 9th Lancers on our right.  

 

At noon, our position was taken over by the 3rd Cavalry Brigade (16th Lancers) and the Regiment retired towards KEMMEL.  The led horses had already been brought up to just east of that place and we thence moved to just south-east of LA CLYTTE in which neighbourhood we billeted for the night.  

Fine day but heavy rain in the night.  Numerous French troops now coming up towards KEMMEL.  

 

 

Very interesting to see that the Cavalry Corps was also entrenching forward slopes. Perhaps its limited role at the Aisne meant that its units did not learn the lesson of reverse slopes. Again, that speaks volumes to the problem of absorbing and disseminating lessons, both at this early stage in the war and as part of the larger learning curve. Excellent stuff. 

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On 6/30/2017 at 03:08, QGE said:

War Diary of the 1st Bn Grenadier Guards (20th Infantry Brigade, 7th Division) mentions the re-alignment of their trenches on Monday 19th Oct 1914

 

Full diary: 1st Bn Grenadier Guards

 

 

WAR DIARY - OCTOBER 1914

 

19th Oct 1914. Monday.

The Battalion moved to KRUISEIK with the view of attacking the enemy about GHELUWE When the Battalion deployed, orders were given to us to retire and occupy trenches made by the 2nd Bn Scots Guards and much work was put into these trenches in the afternoon.

 

At dark however, the 21st Infantry Brigade withdrew and the Commanding Officer obtained leave to draw back his line to some support trenches nearly a kilometre in rear. The line then ran from the South edge of the ridge on which KRUISEIK stands to the crossroads to MENIN and covering a distance of 1,500 yards. The trenches were originally support trenches and not sited either with the view of field of fire or with the view of forming a link in a defensive position.

 

By day the position was held by two Companies and at night the four Companies were out on the ridge. By day two Companies were in support below the crest in trenches in rear of the left centre which seemed to the Commanding Officer to be the most dangerous flank.

 

At this stage, the 1/GG would have been adjusting their line after Rawlinson called off the advance on Menin. They were probably reoccupying trenches that had been dug a day or two earlier during the advance. Sounds like these trenches were perhaps on the reverse slope, however ("not sited ... with view of field of fire"). Training manuals recommended concealing support trenches on reverse slopes, which the 1/GG seemed to do: "two companies were in support below the crest ..." It would be interesting to see a trench map indicating precisely where they were. 

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No "trench" maps of the period, the division was forced to scounge what maps they could locally. NRA surviving records show some sketch maps -  all I have seen are pretty broad brush (understandably) and they do not seem totally accurate when compared one with another  Equally some 7th Dive war diaries were 'reconstructed' after events.

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11 hours ago, David Filsell said:

Interestingly, Angelsey's coverage of the cavalry at Ypres is fairly perfunctory. From memory he does rather more that claim that their role, effectively as infantry, ruled out any detailed analysis! I have always thought this extremely odd.

 

The British Cavalry at Ypres (and indeed on the Western Front in 1914) deserves its own book. Kenyon's "Horseman in No-man's Land" barely scratches the surface of the Cavalry at Ypres  and Angelsey less so. It is rather surprising as there is a substantial amount of primary material in the war diaries.

 

In the pre-War years the Cavalry had exceptionally high standards of musketry and given the 'force multiplying' effect of superior musketry and shooting accurately, this might partly explain why Cavalry regiments had such an impact at Ypres. One might argue that the British cavalry punched way above its weight. Their diaries are exceptionally good when compared to the benchmark set by the infantry. The 11th Hussars, 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers) and Royal Horse Guards diaries (as examples) are rich veins of information, often written by thoughtful and intelligent diarists. The IEF-A diaries, who interestingly held the same trenches in mid Oct 1915 also have exceptional detail.

 

I have often thought it would be interesting to write the 'life of a trench' and record the history of a fixed place in a battlefield, reflecting the experiences of the various units that passed through the trench. At Ypres 1914 (and beyond to places such as Messines) it is possible to follow the experiences of the occupants of a line of trenches over a number of weeks as they transitioned from the Cavalry to the Indian Army (Infantry) to the Cavalry the British Infantry and so on; 

 

1914 was a complex mosaic of Battalion histories; so complex that it is extremely difficult to summarise their experiences within a single volume (or two : OH). The 1914 diaries are still a rich source of information that will continue to provide material for revised assessments of the BEF.

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Here is a post war example of a map of one position - 6th DG and London Scottish. The latter's advance on 31st Oct 1914 stalled at the rudimentaly trench line held by the Cavalry. There was not enough room in the disconnected trenches for the London Scottish who were forced to lie out on the open ground an seek any cover they could find. The map seems to indicate it was an exposed position . The map is taken from the history of the London Scottish. The account of Messines is worth reading. 

IMG_1920.JPG.6786da31392ba77cf2b9b6257e00dc07.JPG

 

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No disagreement from me.

Although I spent many hours at the  NRA looking at 4 Corps records  - with particular reference to RWF - I admit that I certainly did  not go through everything. Within 7th inf  div many War Diary accounts are in disagrement, as are other papers, some diaries were rebuilt post event (by admission) and positions were frequently poorly recorded. Sketch maps are rare. Most of the bn histories are pretty unimpressive.

Equally by mid October 1914 - despite great efforts - it was virtually impossible to find survivors accounts - there were virtually  none in regimental museums of value. In consequence, after writing my manuscript up from the division's formation to 30th October - the day upon which my relative serving in the ranks of the RWF died  - I concluded that I was unable to complete the truly reliable account I wanted to write.

 

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On 03/07/2017 at 01:40, David Filsell said:

No disagreement from me.

Although I spent many hours at the  NRA looking at 4 Corps records  - with particular reference to RWF - I admit that I certainly did  not go through everything. Within 7th inf  div many War Diary accounts are in disagrement, as are other papers, some diaries were rebuilt post event (by admission) and positions were frequently poorly recorded. Sketch maps are rare. Most of the bn histories are pretty unimpressive.

Equally by mid October 1914 - despite great efforts - it was virtually impossible to find survivors accounts - there were virtually  none in regimental museums of value. In consequence, after writing my manuscript up from the division's formation to 30th October - the day upon which my relative serving in the ranks of the RWF died  - I concluded that I was unable to complete the truly reliable account I wanted to write.

 

 

Have you seen QM Cottrell's account in a private letter? There is little tactical detail but a harrowing letter it is. I have the mss and tss. Somewhere!

 

Cottrell is one of the few candidates who might have written up 1 RWF diary, but it does not match his handwriting. The diary, scrappy as it is, is not sgned or initialed for the relevant days.

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Mr M,

I am genuinely unsure. I have a large collection of material on the division. Apart from my ms on the 7th Inf Div from formation at  at Lyndhurst to October 30th (and some notes for 31st) it's a long time since I looked in my files - apart from the material on Capper's death for the Haig Fellowship Magazine.

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  • 1 year later...
On 20/06/2017 at 14:11, josquin said:

Keith Simpson's

"Capper and the Offensive Spirit," in the Journal of the RUSI vol.118, issue 2; 51-56 (1973).

 

Anybody have a pdf copy of this article, by any chance?? 

Visiting the gentleman in question tomorrow in Lillers, so thought I'd get to know him a bit more... 

 

thanks,  

 

M.

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