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PRINCESS Mary christmas gift

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tullybrone
3 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

Steve - That's one f the best I've seen. The first I've seen personalised at the time. Superb! John

 

Hi John,

 

Thanks. BBC (The One Show) actually showed an interest in showing the item on a centenary programme filmed at Harewood House in mid 2014 (Princess Mary marital home) for broadcast Xmas time 2014 but they only gave me 48 hours notice (very unprofessional to my mind) and I had other unbreakable commitments so declined to take part. 

 

Steve Y

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Medaler

Well, I managed a bit better today. Still not claiming them to be the best photo's I have ever taken - I think the camera is on its way out. Here are my 3 for reference.

Regards,

Mike

Princess Mary Tins 2 001.JPG

Princess Mary Tins 2 002.JPG

Princess Mary Tins 2 003.JPG

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Sepoy

A rare Princess Mary Christmas Gift!!!
I purchased this from an Antique Dealer, for a few pence, during the 1980s. He had thrown it into a box of junk, thinking it devalued a Princess Mary box which had just sold.

Sepoy

Princess Mary.jpg

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Sepoy

A close up.

Princess Mary2_edited-1.jpg

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Medaler

Wonderful find Sepoy! I didn't know anything about those lighters until about 2 days ago.

 

I have now decided that the list of criteria that I found for determining the 7 variations is complete bunkum.

 

Take the top one of my 3 tins....................

 

Definitely a full stop after "1914" - and therefore MUST be a type 1,2,3,4 or 7

Cross hatching definitely 7 - and therefore MUST be a type 1,5,6 or 7

Following a process of elimination therefore, it MUST be a type 1 or 7.

Is it plated? - Yes - and therefore it CAN NOT BE either a type 1 or 7.

 

Therefore it MUST be either be a fake, an unknown version, or I can't see straight - Any thoughts folks?

 

Regards,

Mike

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Gunner Bailey
27 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

A close up.

Princess Mary2_edited-1.jpg

That's the one that sells for hundreds of pounds. Super rare.

 

Must get a DeLorean and go back and buy a few!

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Gunner Bailey
6 hours ago, tullybrone said:

 

Hi John,

 

Thanks. BBC (The One Show) actually showed an interest in showing the item on a centenary programme filmed at Harewood House in mid 2014 (Princess Mary marital home) for broadcast Xmas time 2014 but they only gave me 48 hours notice (very unprofessional to my mind) and I had other unbreakable commitments so declined to take part. 

 

Steve Y

 

The BBC can be like that. I attended a BBC event a few years ago and was given 1 minutes notice that I was going to be interviewed Live on the SE news! I was given no idea what the questions would  be so was totally unprepared. By a miracle everyone said it went well.

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trajan
53 minutes ago, Medaler said:

 ... Therefore it MUST be either be a fake, an unknown version, or I can't see straight - Any thoughts folks?

 

Errrr, assemble a larger sample base...:unsure: Quite seriously, though, you've been doing some good stuff here but I remain astonished that nobody has ever tried to sort these out, other than the list that was posted earlier! 

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Medaler
30 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

Errrr, assemble a larger sample base...:unsure: Quite seriously, though, you've been doing some good stuff here but I remain astonished that nobody has ever tried to sort these out, other than the list that was posted earlier! 

 

Hi Julian,

I am pretty sure that somebody else must have trodden this path before me, but I think I have done enough to cast at least some doubt on the accuracy of the list that I had discovered. As you can hopefully see from my meanderings, I have had a certain amount of difficulty in interpreting the list anyway. I also think that I have discovered other variations along the way. There seem to be differences in the folds of the way that the flags are furled (particularly on the LHS), differences in the font height/shape and the positioning within the cartouche of the legend "CHRISTMAS1914". There might also be differences in the shape of the stud on the bayonet chape.

 

I am hanging my hat on the theory that that table of variations is either incomplete,  inaccurate or both. It would however be a mammoth task to sort all these out, and I would need to handle hundreds of them to take a proper stab at it. It all begins to get even more complex when you start to look at worn examples where some of the crisp detail has been polished away. Whilst having a day or two's experience at looking at medals certainly helps in this gigantic "spot the difference" competition, this is a whole new ballgame.

 

Here is an example from my tins 1 & 2 - look at the difference in gap between the thistle heads...........

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

 

 

Tin 1 Thistles.JPG

Tin 2 Thistles.JPG

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Medaler

Ha,

 

Here are some more differences on my 3 tins..........

 

Look at the "loops" on the scroll work - all 3 different. Where does that feature on the "table of variation"?

 

I will call picture 1 the standard. On picture 2 the raised rib joins the swirl in a completely different place. Now look at pic 3, and see a completely different shape of raised rib, and a much more "open" swirl.

 

Regards,

Mike

Loops Tin 1.JPG

Loops Tin 2.JPG

Loops Tin 3.JPG

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Medaler

One to add - An image of the 19 leaf version - 19 pairs of leaves on right of bust.........

 

Looking at my post #35, these are tight swirls with a 4th variation of raised rib shape. Similar angular shape to my 3rd image, but much flatter in appearance.

 

I think this tin actually backs "type 1" according to the table. It would be interesting to find other examples of 19 leaf versions and compare them.

Mike

19 leaf version.jpg

Edited by Medaler

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tullybrone

Hi Mike,

 

I can't see a full stop after 1914 so doesn't that exclude this one from being a type 1 example?

 

Apologies if it is just my eyesight!

 

Just wondering if there is anything in the National or Royal Archives about the different design/manufacturers?

 

Steve Y

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Medaler
5 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Hi Mike,

 

I can't see a full stop after 1914 so doesn't that exclude this one from being a type 1 example?

 

Apologies if it is just my eyesight!

 

Just wondering if there is anything in the National or Royal Archives about the different design/manufacturers?

 

Steve Y

 

Very good point Steve. I thought I could see a full stop, but that might just be my eyesight! The tin is not in my possession, so I can't check. If you are right it proves the inaccuracy of the list so it is quite important. My own opinion is that the tin is as right as 9d, I don't think those signs of age and wear could be faked that convincingly.

 

I'm glad your sticking with this Steve, I'm doing a lot of floundering around in the dark, and am glad of the company!

 

The subject of different designs is another can of worms. I have not looked at different manufacturers, but it is quite likely that the same manufacturer could have been responsible for several of the variations. It is possible that one maker could have had multiple machines running with different dies. I reckon that is a whole other subject.

 

I have also discovered a variation in the waves on the Dreadnought panels at the bottom of the tin. Some have 4 1/2 waves, others 4 - and the shapes of the waves seem to vary slightly too.

 

Oh, and all the tins I have seen seem to have a design error on them! The port view of the Dreadnought on every version shows 2 anchors, and I am pretty certain that the real ships only had one on that side. The ship actually looks a bit like Iron Duke, and I am wondering which ship they actually used as a model !!

 

Regards,

Mike

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Medaler

Definitive proof that the table of 7 variations is not authoritative............

 

Having had a bit more time, I have done a careful comparison between John's tin and my first tin. I have decided that they are the same, and made from the same press. If anyone wants to double check this, I have added both images again so that you can carry out your own "spot the difference" test. If anyone wants to tell me that I am wrong, then please do so.......This is all very experimental, but I needed to make a start somewhere.

 

To try and convince you that the 2 tins are the same, here are a few comparison checks. They are a mixture taken from the "table of 7" and my own observations on my tin which I have listed with pictures to illustrate them in earlier posts.

 

Plated = Yes

Full Stop after 1914 = Yes

Lattice intersections below the bayonet scabbard = 7

Centre petal of lower flower lowermost = Yes

18 pairs of leaves on right side of wreath = Yes

Close proximity of thistle heads at LHS = Yes

Legend of "Christmas 1914" shares same letter size and position within the cartouche.

Raised rib, joint of rib to swirl, and degree of openness of swirls all match.

Wave form and number of waves match.

 

For me, the real clincher that our 2 tins are from the same press is the detailing in the upper cartouche. These are so identical, I reckon it proves it. Note the "wide gap" between the two letter "N"s in "Britannicum" - and the shared poor definition of the down stroke that starts each letter "N". The bottom of that leg of the "N" is missing on both.

 

According to the table of 7 variations, any plated example MUST be type 4, 5, or 6. This immediately rules out 4 of the 7 possibilities. Of these, only version 4 has a full stop after "1914". A version 4 however only has 6 lattice intersections, and our tins both have 7.

 

Please feel free to share your thoughts.

 

Regards,

Mike

John's Tin upper cartouche.JPG

Princess Mary Tins 2 upper cartouche.JPG

John's Tin.JPG

Princess Mary Tins 2 001.JPG

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trajan

Please don't shoot the messenger, but my memory says that are differences in the frog stud of the scabbard shown upper left of "Imperium Britannicum" also. Some seem to be teardrop shaped, others are lozenges...

 

Mike, I guess that you realise that looking into all of these variations would be something of a life time's work, but thanks for showing that the variations exist and looking into the matter - serious work there which will make other GWF Pals think a little more on this. Seriously, you have done some excellent work there, and when I next get back to the UK one of the first things I'll do is check the QM tin my brother has, from his wife's family, her grandfather, in the Royal Berks who died in the flu epidemic of 1918 (a day or so after the armistice...)

 

Julian

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Medaler
36 minutes ago, trajan said:

Please don't shoot the messenger, but my memory says that are differences in the frog stud of the scabbard shown upper left of "Imperium Britannicum" also. Some seem to be teardrop shaped, others are lozenges...

 

Mike, I guess that you realise that looking into all of these variations would be something of a life time's work, but thanks for showing that the variations exist and looking into the matter - serious work there which will make other GWF Pals think a little more on this. Seriously, you have done some excellent work there, and when I next get back to the UK one of the first things I'll do is check the QM tin my brother has, from his wife's family, her grandfather, in the Royal Berks who died in the flu epidemic of 1918 (a day or so after the armistice...)

 

Julian

 

Thanks Julian,

I think I've done enough to discredit that list as being an authoritative guide, and therefore may have given hope to some that their items are genuine despite them having an example that they can't match to a type number using the criteria it specifies. I am certainly 100% happy that all the tins in members pictures are genuine, they exhibit too many of the right signs to be otherwise. Oh, and you are right about the frog stud, but I don't have clear enough pictures to demonstrate it. My No1 tin and John's both are a definite and pronounced diamond shape, others (I am sure) look just like the elongated and oval-ish version of the frog stud found on many 1907 pattern bayonets.

 

I can't take this a great deal further without access to more tins - and I mean LOTS more tins, but at least I think I have widened things out a bit.

 

If any members want to add more good detailed pics of further variations they may allow further conclusions to be drawn.

 

The story of your brother's, wife's grandfather is very far from unique. So very sad that they went through so much only to fall victim to the flu. One of my wife's ancestors (RE) was killed on the same date as Wilfred Owen. So close to the end. I can't help but feel that they were somehow cheated out of their lives, even looking back after all these years. I have examples of BWM's to men who lost their lives on both the 9th and 10th November 1918, and a pair to one who was KIA on the 6th. I can only imagine how their families must have felt at the time.

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited by Medaler

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robins2

thought I would add mine to the mix, slight variations found

color is brass, photos washed due to lighting

came with card dated 1915, did they issue the tins each year???

 

regards

 

Bob R.

20170604_202225.jpg

20170604_202447.jpg

20170604_202507.jpg

20170604_202255.jpg

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Medaler

Hi Bob,

Very nice tin!

 

I'll run it through my mind...........1st thought is that it might be like my tin 3 - because they both have 6 lattice intersections below the scabbard.

Running it through the original "7 versions" table the nearest match is type 4 BUT, your tin should have a narrow "M" (which I don't think it has), and not have a "squashed roundel". My jury is now out on what "squashed roundel" actually means!

 

Your tin and my tin 3 are however different. Here is the evidence................

 

My tin 3 has a detail between the thistle heads which is completely absent on yours. Now look at the intersection of the lattice. Yours has a flower head on the boss, mine has never had one, not a trace.

 

Conclusion...........

 

Yours is a 5th version (We already have my 3 and the 19 leaf version).

 

In reality I have actually still only used a very small sample size here, and already shown 5 versions exist amongst them. That would lead me to think that there are many more versions than the 7 we were given to understand covered all the options.

 

Many thanks for that Bob, a very nice tin, and a really useful addition.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

 

 

Bobs tin detail.jpg

My tin 3 detail.JPG

Just now, Medaler said:

Hi Bob,

Very nice tin!

 

I'll run it through my mind...........1st thought is that it might be like my tin 3 - because they both have 6 lattice intersections below the scabbard.

Running it through the original "7 versions" table the nearest match is type 4 BUT, your tin should have a narrow "M" (which I don't think it has), and not have a "squashed roundel". My jury is now out on what "squashed roundel" actually means!

 

Your tin and my tin 3 are however different. Here is the evidence................

 

My tin 3 has a detail between the thistle heads which is completely absent on yours. Now look at the intersection of the lattice. Yours has a flower head on the boss, mine has never had one, not a trace. The leaves with the thistles are actually a completely different shape and design.

 

Conclusion...........

 

Yours is a 5th version (We already have my 3 and the 19 leaf version).

 

In reality I have actually still only used a very small sample size here, and already shown 5 versions exist amongst them. That would lead me to think that there are many more versions than the 7 we were given to understand covered all the options.

 

Many thanks for that Bob, a very nice tin, and a really useful addition.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

 

 

Bobs tin detail.jpg

My tin 3 detail.JPG

 

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Ghazala

I have one in a box somewhere.  I will get it out and check it.

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Medaler

Type 6 tin identified - Thanks to Don!

 

Having found a bit more time I've cracked a type 6, but first a quick re-cap.

 

We have my 3 which are 2 x 7 lattice and 1 x 6 lattice

We have the 19 leaf version.

And now we have Bob's 6 lattice version with different thistles.

Don's tin is also a 7 lattice version - and the differences are in the bayonet.

 

As well as major differences in the leaves around the bayonet design, take a look at the cross guards. My tins 1 and 2 both have straight guards, Don's has curved quillons and grips that more resemble the binding on a Japanese sword.

 

All the variations I have found so far could not have been made with the same dies, even if those dies were crisp on some pressings and worn on others.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

My Tin 1 Bayonet.JPG

My Tin 2 Bayonet.JPG

Don's Tin Bayonet.jpg

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Gunner Bailey
On 05/06/2017 at 03:42, robins2 said:

thought I would add mine to the mix, slight variations found

color is brass, photos washed due to lighting

came with card dated 1915, did they issue the tins each year???

 

regards

 

Bob R.

 

 

 

 

 

Tins issued at Christmas 1914 had the 1914 dated card. As not all the first batch of tins were delivered on time ( I think the original appeal only started in the October) tins delivered in early 1915 had the 1915 card which was used in all subsequent tins. Tins were still being issued in 1916 and stories abound of boxes of PM tins being found in Army stores into the 1960's and being raided for the fags.

 

A neglected aspect of the PM tin appeal is the book that was sold to raise funds. It has contributions from many famous authors and artists.

 

John

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robins2

thanks for that, another question, did the tins ever have the date changed on them, or did they all remain dated 1914

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Gunner Bailey

All 1914.

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Grovetown
On 6/7/2017 at 07:21, Gunner Bailey said:

A neglected aspect of the PM tin appeal is the book that was sold to raise funds. It has contributions from many famous authors and artists.

 

And fabulously worthy - and astonishingly dull - it is too!

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

AP5180121.JPG

AP5180123.JPG

AP5180125.JPG

AP5180130.JPG

AP5180128.JPG

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Gunner Bailey

Pretty good for something put together in a couple of weeks. Not designed to be a masterpiece just a fund raiser.

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