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BIFFO

PRINCESS Mary christmas gift

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BIFFO

How can you tell a genuine princess Mary tin/contents  from a modern reproduction ?

 

Biffo

pm - Copy.jpg

pm1 - Copy.jpg

pm2 - Copy.jpg

pm3 - Copy.jpg

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Don

Looking at my one, which was purchased on line it looks different.

My obs are

1. The Christmas 1914 is much smaller on mine.

2.The sword  with the leaves is different on mine. There are 3 leaves directly under the sword. On yours they are clustered.

If your one is genuine then my one is a fake.

I will try and post a pic later as I at work and have no camera

 

Gerry

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Gunner Bailey

Here's mine for reference.

 

John

DSCN6158.JPG

DSCN6159.JPG

DSCN6160.JPG

DSCN6161.JPG

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Medaler

I stand to be corrected on this, but I don't think the tins were all manufactured at the same place, and there are therefore several variations. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think the tins were "faked" until the Daily Mail offered a repro to their readers to mark the centenary. To be frank, the Daily Mail tins look ghastly. Once you had seen one you would never fall for it being an original. The proportions in the design are all wrong and the artwork looks like some 10 year old did it with an etch-a-sketch.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=daily+mail+1914+tin+image&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJs7vKqJ3UAhVBshQKHebqCFEQsAQIJw&biw=1366&bih=641

 

Mike

Edited by Medaler

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Gunner Bailey

Fortnum and Mason's also did  commemorative copy tin. Copies were also being sold in France in 2014.

 

17 minutes ago, Medaler said:

I stand to be corrected on this, but I don't think the tins were all manufactured at the same place, and there are therefore several variations.

 

Mike

 

I think that is correct. Manufacture took place from 1914 through to 1916 I believe.

 

I saw one recently where the lid hinges were on the wrong side. Rare one!

 

John

 

 

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mebu

Mine looks identical to Johns....except not so shiny, and no fags.

 

Peter

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Medaler
14 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Fortnum and Mason's also did  commemorative copy tin. Copies were also being sold in France in 2014.

 

 

I think that is correct. Manufacture took place from 1914 through to 1916 I believe.

 

I saw one recently where the lid hinges were on the wrong side. Rare one!

 

John

 

 

 

Hi John,

Thanks for the added insight. A bit of further digging around the internet has led me to discover that there seem to be 7 known variations of the original tin. All these variations seem to relate to minor differences in design. Apparently, even amongst the originals, some were guilded and some were not.

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited by Medaler
Added a bit more!

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Gunner Bailey

Again for reference here is a photo of the tins sold in France in 2014 and the Fortnum & Mason tin. The latter was issued to members of the British Armed forces at Christmas 2014. It contains chocolate blocks and a small pack of playing cards.

 

Sorry if the photo is poor quality. Late night photography....

 

John

DSCN6166.JPG

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Medaler

To try and add some definition to the variations on the tins, it is probably best to direct you to the table by Paul Hinckley reproduced on this website at #12. I think I can do that without breaking any copyright as it is already in the public domain here and I did not need a membership to access it. If the mods disagree, then please remove this post and accept my apologies.

 

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ww1-allies-great-britain-france-usa-etc-1914-1918/princess-marys-gift-tin-1914-a-1553-2/

 

It might be interesting to see if we can find pictures of all 7 variations between us, to create our own reference here.

 

Regards to all,

Mike

Edited by Medaler

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Gunner Bailey

Thanks Mike - a useful link. I'd not seen that table before.

 

John

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Black Maria

I quite recently saw a fake tin ( the ones made in India with 1914 on them instead of princess Mary's head ) for sale in an antique shop labelled as a

rare and unusual original tin .

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Medaler

In the way of an experiment, I have tried to classify the 2 tins shown so far against the table of variations. I have however hit problems!

 

Biffo's Tin

Plated - Yes

Full stop after 1914 - Yes

Narrow "M" - Yes - on the grounds that it looks narrower than on John's example

Squashed roundel - Yes - Looks to have a slightly more oval shape than John's

Cross Hatching - 6 - counting the bosses below the scabbard where the lattice intersects

Inverted flower - I have no idea what that refers to.

Crossed Laurel Stalks - As inverted flower, struggling to see what that means

 

Put my interpretation together and, either we have an new variation, or I've messed up somewhere. I'm pretty convinced that the latter is correct. No negativity applied to your tin Biffo, just my brain power. I obviously need more practice!

 

John's Tin

Plated - No

Full stop after 1914 - Yes

Narrow "M" - No - on the grounds that it looks wider than on Biffo's example

Squashed roundel - No - Looks perfectly round to me

Cross Hatching - 7 - counting the bosses below the scabbard where the lattice intersects

Inverted flower - I have no idea what that refers to.

Crossed Laurel Stalks - As inverted flower, struggling to see what that means

All that gives me a dead heat between Type 1 and Type 7 but, as there are only 18 pairs of leaves on the right of the bust, I am making this a Type 7. The clinchers would be that it should therefore have an inverted flower but not crossed laurel stalks.

 

I need to see more flowers and laurel stalks!!!!!!!

 

Any thoughts / comments?

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited by Medaler

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Gunner Bailey
1 hour ago, Medaler said:

In the way of an experiment, I have tried to classify the 2 tins shown so far against the table of variations. I have however hit problems!

 

John's Tin

Plated - No

Full stop after 1914 - Yes

Narrow "M" - No - on the grounds that it looks wider than on Biffo's example

Squashed roundel - No - Looks perfectly round to me

Cross Hatching - 7 - counting the bosses below the scabbard where the lattice intersects

Inverted flower - I have no idea what that refers to.

Crossed Laurel Stalks - As inverted flower, struggling to see what that means

All that gives me a dead heat between Type 1 and Type 7 but, as there are only 18 pairs of leaves on the right of the bust, I am making this a Type 7. The clinchers would be that it should therefore have an inverted flower but not crossed laurel stalks.

 

I need to see more flowers and laurel stalks!!!!!!!

 

Any thoughts / comments?

 

Regards,

Mike

 

Mike

 

My tin is fully gilded. It's a trick of the light in that photo.

 

John

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Medaler
33 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

Mike

 

My tin is fully gilded. It's a trick of the light in that photo.

 

John

 

Cheers John, sorry about that!

The problem now is that yours doesn't fit with any of the 7 versions either - well, according to my interpretation. I need more practice!! - and more tins to practice on. I will try and get photo's of my tins on here later on tonight.

 

Regards,

Mike

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BIFFO

thanks for information chaps I will take it mine is genuine I don`t fancy a " Squashed roundel" :o

mike I cannot believe the price asked for the bullet pencil !!!!!

Biffo :poppy:

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trajan

With my archaeological hat in place, I am astounded that nobody has tried to catalogue / classify these things! Medaler made a couple of astute observations earlier best summarised in post no. 9 with the link to another source, and then did a quick analysis above, no.12. So, anybody out there ready for an MA thesis on the matter?

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depaor01

All news to me. I thought they all came from the same factory with standard presses.

I feel a niche market coming on!

Dave

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tullybrone

Hi,

 

Here is one that has been in our family - now minus its contents -since it was issued to my maternal grandfather at Xmas 1914 whilst he was recuperating in hospital in the south of England from wounds sustained at Reutel (Polygon) Woods, Ypres in November 1914.

 

I don't think it ever reached his home address - as my grandmother would have likely kept it for their then 3 young children! He had it engraved and sent it as a gift to his youngest sister then newly arrived in Fernie, British Columbia, Canada and resident there with her eldest married sister.

 

It remained with my great aunt's family in Canada until I traced them in 2013 and was gifted it at a family gathering in Calgary, Alberta by my great aunt's grand daughter who had inherited it.

 

Steve Y

 

 

image(52).jpeg

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Medaler
1 hour ago, BIFFO said:

thanks for information chaps I will take it mine is genuine I don`t fancy a " Squashed roundel" :o

mike I cannot believe the price asked for the bullet pencil !!!!!

Biffo :poppy:

 

Yup, that probably the main reason that I will never own one - unless I drop lucky at a car boot sale. The price of the card pencil holders is bad enough!

Regards,

Mike

 

Now for my analysis of Steve's tin............Many thanks for that good clear photo. I hope I am calling this correctly.

 

Steves Tin

Plated - No

Full stop after 1914 - Yes

Narrow "M" - No - on the grounds that it looks wider than on Biffo's example

Squashed roundel - No - Looks perfectly round to me

Cross Hatching - 7 - counting the bosses below the scabbard where the lattice intersects

Inverted flower - I still have no idea what that refers to.

Crossed Laurel Stalks - Ah ha!!!! - Definitely 2 laurel stalks near the lower flower under the bust. This is different to both John's and Biffo's, where only one seems to be visible on the right side.

 

Net result = I can't make that one work either. I am rubbish at this !!!!!!!!!! To be clear, all these tins look pukka to me, its just that I can't get my head around these "rules".

 

I will pause here, get my pictures on, and then start all over again.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

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Medaler

Managed it at last, but the images were very poor and out of focus. I will try again in better light tomorrow. Meanwhile, here is a glimpse of my three, with close up shots of the  flowers at the bottom of the wreath. There seem to be variations that I would describe as "central petal uppermost" and "central petal lowermost". Note also that the laurel stalks seem to be 2 variations, no stalks, and 2 stalks. Perhaps also of interest here is the first example of one without the full stop after "1914", And that the shapes and forms of the lettering are slightly different on each of my three.

 

The plot thickens...............but I think I am slowly getting my "eye in"

Regards,

Mike

 

 

 

 

Princess Mary Tins 008.JPG

Princess Mary Tins 009.JPG

Princess Mary Tins 010.JPG

Edited by Medaler
Need to try harder with the focus!

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Don

Well mine must be a fake,no full stop and the leaves are below the bayonet.

I enclose a pic.

Thanks medalar for you info and links

 

IMG_20170602_154145.jpg

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Medaler
44 minutes ago, Don said:

Well mine must be a fake,no full stop and the leaves are below the bayonet.

I enclose a pic.

Thanks medalar for you info and links

 

 

 

dd

 

 

No no no, yours looks grand to me - and in very nice condition too. All of them on here look grand to me, I am just trying to test the set of rules that I have found in order to determine which versions we have, and to test that those rules actually add up as a scholarly and valid interpretation.

 

At the very least, we seem to have both discovered and proved that there are several legitimate variations.

 

If my interpretations are now correct, and yours is also plated, it looks like a "Type 5"

 

Plated - Can't tell from the picture - but for a "Type 5" it needs to be.

Full stop after 1914 - No

Narrow "M" - No

Squashed roundel - No - Looks perfectly round to me

Cross Hatching - 7 - counting the bosses below the scabbard where the lattice intersects

Inverted flower - Looks like central petal uppermost - so no, not "inverted" - a bit tricky to confirm 100% from the picture

Crossed Laurel Stalks - 2 stalks visible - so yes, crossed stalks - crossing behind the flower.

 

If you can confirm the bits I am unsure about we have our first match to the list I found.

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited by Medaler

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Medaler
5 hours ago, BIFFO said:

thanks for information chaps I will take it mine is genuine I don`t fancy a " Squashed roundel" :o

mike I cannot believe the price asked for the bullet pencil !!!!!

Biffo :poppy:

 

Reading backwards on the link that I posted to that other forum, there seems to be information that the silver paper in the fag packets had a diamond shaped pattern embossed into it. A further look at your photo's shows that to be present. Further proof that your tin and contents are the real deal - and very nice too. One day I may get my head sufficiently around that table of variations to be able to tell you which one you have!

 

I have somehow ended up with 3 tins - all completely empty! One came from Newark Antiques Fair many moons ago, another came from a local auction where mine was the only bid, and the third came with a pair of medals. With both of the medals being partially erased, the tin is probably more valuable than they are!

 

Warmest regards,

Mike

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Gunner Bailey
9 hours ago, Don said:

Well mine must be a fake,no full stop and the leaves are below the bayonet.

I enclose a pic.

Thanks medalar for you info and links

 

 

 

No that's a good tin.

 

12 hours ago, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

Here is one that has been in our family - now minus its contents -since it was issued to my maternal grandfather at Xmas 1914 whilst he was recuperating in hospital in the south of England from wounds sustained at Reutel (Polygon) Woods, Ypres in November 1914.

 

I don't think it ever reached his home address - as my grandmother would have likely kept it for their then 3 young children! He had it engraved and sent it as a gift to his youngest sister then newly arrived in Fernie, British Columbia, Canada and resident there with her eldest married sister.

 

It remained with my great aunt's family in Canada until I traced them in 2013 and was gifted it at a family gathering in Calgary, Alberta by my great aunt's grand daughter who had inherited it.

 

Steve Y

 

 

image(52).jpeg

 

Steve - That's one f the best I've seen. The first I've seen personalised at the time. Superb! John

 

 

13 hours ago, BIFFO said:

thanks for information chaps I will take it mine is genuine I don`t fancy a " Squashed roundel" :o

mike I cannot believe the price asked for the bullet pencil !!!!!

Biffo :poppy:

 

You should look for the lighter that went in the officer's tins. I saw one sell for £375 a while ago. Ouch!

Edited by Gunner Bailey

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Tony N
On 01/06/2017 at 19:33, BIFFO said:

How can you tell a genuine princess Mary tin/contents  from a modern reproduction ?

 

Biffo

As far as I see it the aluminium foil is the best way of spotting original cigarette and tobacco packets, the original being thicker, darker and the tobacco has a kind of cross hatching foil. I can't comment on the other contents and wonder if the pencil bullet card holder is reproduced as it must be easy to do and they seem to sell for far more than I thnk they're worth.

 

As for tins, there were seven different types according to a table I have.

Tony

Edited by Tony N

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