30 Div (County Palatine) Royal Engineers

[brianmorris547]

This thread is intended to cover this Unit from formation in early 1915 and the period in training, particularly in Morecambe, before embarking for France in November 1915. The WD of the CRE 30 Div contains a very good history of this period. In my research at Morecambe library I found copies of two photographs of the CPRE taken by a local historian named Kenneth H Docton. The archives at Lancashire County Records Office kindly provided me with images. The archives at Greater Manchester County Records Office hold four more photographs. I have the kind permission of both Records Offices to post them on this Site.

 The first one is from Lancashire and shows the CPRE ready for inspection. Reference points to note are:

1. The church in the top left hand corner is the old Wesleyan Methodist church (now boarded up) on the promenade by the Battery.

2. The large building under the arrow is the West End Market (later known as the Alhambra Buildings). It is 250 yards from the Church.

3. The two properties with the Apex roofing directly below the Alhambra are still there on Balmoral Rd, opposite what is now the Sandylands Community Centre.

4. The large block between the church and the goalposts is now 104-114 Sefton Rd.

A basic line of sight resection on the attached 1913 map puts the camera somewhere near the ND of Sandylands (roughly where Maple Ave now stands)

 

[brianmorris547]

The other photograph by K H Docton in the Lancashire archives is this one showing 202 FC on the beach at Morecambe.

[brianmorris547]

The first two pictures from the Greater Manchester Archive show members of No 3 Section, 201 FC at Morecambe. They are dated 11/06/1915. The photos were donated to the Archive by a lady in Wilmslow in the 1970s and show her grandfather. Unfortunately there is no record of his name. 

There is another photograph of No 3 Section, 201 FC in Michael Stedman's book "Manchester Pals". It is dated 03/06/1915 and shows a Trestle Bridge. (note the bridge building material in the picture in post 1). I would be interested to know where Michael obtained this and if he knows of the whereabouts of any more. 

[8055Bell]

Brian,

Great photos.  These men served alongside the Manchester Pals on the Somme and it's interesting to see their faces. Thanks for posting.

Tim

[brianmorris547]

The remaining two pictures from Greater Manchester Archives show the grandfather of the lady in Wilmslow at his billet in Morecambe.

[brianmorris547]

My grandfather 83123 Spr John Morris enlisted into the CPRE at Bolton on 24/03/1915. His third son had been born in February. He was a plumber by trade and probably saw this article in the Bolton Evening News 09/03/1915. From 25/11/1914 to 25/11/1915 the Bolton Evening News named all recruits who enlisted at the Town Hall in a feature called "Rally to the Flag". I attach the page from the BEN 25/03/1915 showing the men who enlisted the previous day.

 

 

[8055Bell]

That is a wonderful piece of history.  I hadn't known enlistment rolls were published in the BEN.  I'd love to see the 3/9/1914 edition.

T

Edited 27 May , 2017 by 8055Bell

[brianmorris547]

T

Amended the date thank you. The Rally to the Flag feature in the Bolton Evening News did not start until 25/11/1914.

After enlisting on 24/03/1915 my grandfather sent a postcard of Morecambe West End to his mother to let her know that he had enlisted into the RE. It is dated 27/03/1915. It gives his billet address as No 9 Windsor Terrace, Holmlea, Heysham. Mrs Beswick. There is an image of Windsor Terrace in the Lancashire Archives c 1911. It can be seen on the map in post 1, from the Methodist Church marked No 1 follow Winterdyne Terrace into Heysham Rd and it is between Sefton Rd and Stanley Rd. There are nine divisions in the block so I assume No 9 was the last one. I attach the image from Lancashire Lantern and a view of the block as it is now.

[MAW]

Very interesting photographs which have prompted me to reveal another member of the 30th Division RE:

 

George Harvey, 81894 Sapper, 202^nd Field Company, Royal Engineers

 

Attached is a collection of items belonging to George Harvey (medals, photograph and documents) which were mounted on card and displayed in a frame.

 

George Harvey (born 1890, died 1979) arrived in France with his company on 10th November 1915. He served on the Somme 1916, Arras 1917, Ypres 1917, St. Quentin 1918 and Wyschaete 1918 before being attached to the 49th Division RE. He was discharged to Reserve in 1919.

 

Mark

Edited 27 May , 2017 by MAW

[brianmorris547]

Mark

Thank you very much for posting the above about George Harvey. Other than that he was discharged to the Z Reserve on 12/03/1919 I had no other info on him. I also researched "Ceux de la Somme" since I had not seen one of these medals before. There is an old thread here 

Brian

 

[brianmorris547]

A few hundred yards further on down Heysham Rd from Windsor Terrace lies Malvern Terrace. There is a letter in the service record of 81703 Dvr Llewellyn Aubrey from Lt Wraith of 202 FC to Dvr Aubrey's previous employers to ask about his knowledge of horses. Lt Wraith gives his address as 5 Malvern Terrace. This could have possibly been the Company Office unless it was his own billet. 

With regard to the picture of the billet in post 5 there are some houses in the Sefton Rd area where the walls show evidence of previous iron railings and the front door canopies have the cross in the circle pattern. I went on a brick comparison exercise this afternoon after a visit to Morecambe Library and found this property at 37 Brunswick Rd (off Sefton Rd). It is a good possible.

[brianmorris547]

The Morecambe Visitor printed quite a few pictures of the Service Battalions of the Manchester Regiment who were in training in Morecambe in early 1915. These were the 5th City (20th), 6th City (21st) and 7th City (22nd) and the Bantams. It even had the photograph of the football team of 7 Platoon, B Co, 20 (S) Bn with names in the edition of 03/03/1915. Reports on the RE were not as common, the same edition reported that 900 REs at present being recruited would be found billets in Sandylands.

On 05/05/1915 the MV reported that farewell concerts for the Manchester Brigade were held at the West End Wesleyan Soldiers Instutute and the Sandylands Methodist Church Soldiers Institute. It named Sappers Sutcliffe, Paterson and Kirk as performers. The original CPRE had three Sutcliffes and three Kirks but only one Paterson (81556 Tom Paterson).

On 09/06/1915 the MV reported that a motorcyclist had scattered a party of the Signals Company in Heysham, the report named Lt W R Allen and that Cpl P T Ashcroft gave evidence (81711 Philip Thomas Ascroft). 

On 16/06/1915 the MV reported that a soldier billeted on Winterdyne Terrace named Henry Buckland Holden was stopped for riding a motorcycle near Lancaster (83015 Henry B Holden).

On 30/06/1915 the MV reported that Dvr Dunkerley 81520 of 200 Co had rescued a four year old boy who had fallen into the sea (81520 Enoch Dunkerley - later Labour Corps).

Finally on 21/07/1915 the MV reported that a Sapper in the RE, who was a blacksmith by trade, had pleaded guilty at Lancaster Police Court to stealing money from his landlady at 6 St John's Terrace, Sandylands. The report mentioned Dvr Joseph Frank Burgess of the same billet who gave evidence (83270 Frank J Burgess). The man in question was sentenced to three months Hard. His Officer thought that he would be discharged from the Army but his pension record shows that after release he was transferred to No 1 Depot Co Deganwy with a recommendation that he be transferred to a Unit where his skills as a blacksmith could be utilised. He was transferred to the Special Duties RE at Porton. The same edition printed the only picture of the RE in the MV.

Edited 4 June , 2017 by brianmorris547

[brianmorris547]

The Morecambe Visitor 04/08/1915 reported on the departure of the REs on 27/07/1915, who were moving to Boultham Park, Lincoln. Each Field Company marched to the railway station with a band playing and they were given a rousing send off by the locals. The report in the WD of the CRE records that a sports day was held at Boultham Park on 26/08/1915. There are no reports of this event in the Lincoln papers (but none of the men were locals). The CPRE then moved to Larkhill in early September and embarked for France in early November.

From the Medal Rolls I have established that the service numbers allocated to the CPRE were 81320 to 81999 inc, 83000 to 83569 inc and 99680 to 99838 inc, a total of 1409 numbers. The report in the WD of the CRE records that by 01/08/1915 a total of 1393 men had been recruited of which 210 had been discharged (a few transferred to other Units). On 01/09/1915 these 1183 men included the reserve for each company, plus 10 more NCOs and men from the HQ Co.

From various sources MRICs, SMARs, Service and Pension records, SWB rolls and even the Times OCLs I have managed to put names to 1193 of the 1409 numbers, but it is not the same 1193 as in the CRE WD. 51 of my 1193 were discharged under Para 392 in 1915 (including 4 Services No Longer Required) and 31 were transferred to other Units, so this means that in order to match the CRE number I need to find another 82 men.

241 of my 1193 do not have the 1914-15 star. They are presumably the Reserves and it is this category that interests me because my grandfather was one of them. The WD of 200 FC records that 75 men were left at Larkhill as a reserve under 2/Lt Richmond and the CRE WD names the Officers from each FC in charge of the reserve.

From Service and Pension records of the 241 no pattern emerges. They came under No1 and 2 Depot Cos at Deganwy and most found their way to No 4 GBD at Rouen as Base Details from where they were transferred to whichever Units needed reinforcements. I started a thread about No 4 GBD and have examined the LOC Rouen WDs. 

 

Edited 25 June , 2017 by brianmorris547
typo

[brianmorris547]

I have started to run the CPRE numbers through FMP in order to catch any that show up in the Hospital Admissions Books MH 106. I am doing them all but concentrating on any who, like my gf, do not have a 1914-15 Star. The exercise is in it's early stages but I am getting some good results. I have also identified a Sapper that I did not know about, 81518 (previously a blank number that I could not put a name to) Pnr William James Finlay of Salford who died at home on 24/04/1916. He was attached to the Signals Depot at Dunstable and did not serve abroad.

I have also found two others who have Service Papers on FMP which I can not find on Ancestry.co.uk.

81360 Spr Thomas Douglass (Douglas on FMP) and 81685 Spr James Lees. There is a Pension Record on Ancestry for James Lees but I found other papers on FMP which included his Certificate of Trade Proficiency dated 25/03/1915. He was a Plumber by trade and was tested by H P Sutcliffe of Heysham Rd, Morecambe. My gf was also a Plumber and was probably tested by the same person.

EDIT: I also found a one page document relating to 81710 Pnr E Holt in the Service Record of Richard Holt 221593 RE

Edited 17 October , 2018 by brianmorris547

[brianmorris547]

I am putting my CPRE notes onto my computer and I noticed this photograph of 81837 Cpl Leonard Millin on FMP in Lives of the First World War. It was placed there by his son and shows him with his wound stripe after the Somme. He is one of four CPREs named in the Times OCL 16/08/1916 under RE wounded. I think he deserves to be seen here as well. He survived the war . Hope Mr Millin junior does not mind.

Brian

[brianmorris547]

A thread was started in 2018 about 83524 Dvr George Boulton. I found his photograph (the same one that was posted on the thread) on Lives of the First World War. I have read the IWM conditions regarding copyright and the images can be reproduced as long as IWM copyright is acknowledged. This also applies to Leonard Millin above.

Like my CPRE grandfather George has no 1914-15 Star, but whereas my gf served in France George was sent to Salonika in 1916.

[brianmorris547]

I have found one more CPRE photograph on Lives of the First World War. 99797 Percy Massey. (IWM copyright acknowledged). Percy was k in a on 02/07/1916 serving with 201 FC. He is named in the Times OCL 25/07/1916 and on the Thiepval Memorial. 

[brianmorris547]

I have been going through the Manchester Courier from January 1915 to research the recruiting for the CPRE and CPRA. The edition of 24/08/1915 reported that the CPRE were not yet at full strength, there were still a few vacancies for Coopers, Masons, Wheelwrights and Blacksmiths. It was hoped that the full complement should be reached by the end of the week. The same issue reported that Lord Derby had been asked to raise three Field Ambulances for 30 Div and on 27/08/1915 the paper reported that Lord Derby had begun a new drive to recruit men for 136 Battery RGA. The edition of 24/08/1915 had a picture of the CPRE in training in Morecambe.

[brianmorris547]

Another photograph on Lives of the First World War. (IWM Copyright acknowledged).

81905 William Patrick Tobin. He was k in a with 202 FC on 11/10/1916. He is named in the Times OCL 09/11/1916. He is also photographed with the NCOs of 30 Div RE in 1915 (see WD CRE 30 Div). PIN 82 record has details of wife and daughters.

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

Corporal 81968 William Bush

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

Many thanks Graeme

Brian