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CWGC Map Sheet Data


Curlew1919
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Can anyone help me with this CWGC map sheet Data

Where?

1/ The co-ordinates of where Gunner Tom Wadey's body was exhumed before it was re-buried in Menin Road South Military Cemetery 28.I.9.d.2.7

2/ The co-ordinates of where Private Frank Monaghan's grave was last seen at La Chapelle Farm 29.I.33.b.3.9

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Menin Road South Military Cemetery is at trench map ref 28 I 9 d 2.4, so he was found 300 yards north of where the cemetery is.

 

Monaghan is commemorated on La Chapelle Farm Memorial, Hooge Crater Cemetery trench map ref 28 I 18 a 9.5.

Edited by John Milner
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Cheers John for the Wadey one

 

Yes I know Hooge Crater Cemetery co-ordinates are 28.I.18.a.9.5 (but it's not that I'm after)

 

For the Monaghan one it is the whereabouts of a Cemetery that was at a place called La Chapelle Farm, Zillebeke I'm after with the co-ordinates of 29.I.33.b.3.9

The small cemetery was obliterated off the face of the earth during WW1 and the bodies could not be found

That's why they put commemorative headstones (no bodies in grave) 12 of them commemorated on the special memorial at Hooge Crater Cem

There poor souls are still there today somewhere at co-ordinates  29.I.33.b.3.9

Hope nobodies built a Bed and Breakfast onnit at 29.I.33.b.3.9 (third time lucky)

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Thanks for that Don

Good thing that geo/explore overlay thingy

But it means nothing to me?

Can you be more specific

Can you give me a name they call it today?

I was thinking somewhere near the crossroads of Vaartstraat and Verbrandemolenstraat?

Just north east of Chester Farm Cemetery?

 

Sorry but you gave me some place near Oude Heeweg which is 41 Kilometres away?

 

Oude means old

Heerweg means Roman Road

We have an old Roman Road not far from us near the old Roman Waal at Waals End

Gaan on us geordies also put two A's in aal our words yi naa cos wi taark like that aal the time

 

 

Edited by Curlew1919
made a mistake
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Hi Curlew,

 

I think the wrong sheet number is on post #1 point 2.  I suspect you mean Sheet 28, I.33.b.3.9, as the 2 streets and Chester Farm are visible.  If I am right, here is what you are looking for - plot the latitude / longitude on Google Maps and you can zoom around or use Google Street View.

 

5917cb4199368_Sheet28I33b3090.png.209bfe5c0b0b21b5093108fc567852a7.png

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29 post #29.I.33.b.3.9    : 

Is a  hamlet called St Lodewijk. Every body calls it St Louis (French name).
St Louis is part or the larger village Deerlijk.  Larger cities in the area are Kotrijk (Courtrai) and Waregem.

2 remarks:
Just looking at the names means dat Monoghan died in October 1918.. (battle of Courtrai).
There is no farm there named La Chapelle (map 29 is too far away from the fron line, there are no ENglisch names for the farms, junctions...) 

 

 

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Correct map ref is 28.I.33.b.3.9

LA CHAPELLE FARM, ZILLEBEKE, between Chester Farm and Blauwepoort Farm, where 17 soldiers from the United Kingdom were buried in February and March, 1915.

 

The three farms above are shown by blue dots on the modern google image. 

 

Alan

la chappelle.JPG

la blue.JPG

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Here's the detail for Tom Wadey

9d.JPG

9dd.JPG

9da.JPG

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White Star you are a star

As I thought in the back garden of the B&B on the Vaarstraat (Heifer Street)

At Landgoed Palinbeek (the estate at Palins Brook

Bartensabien yes your right the brits just named the places after the first thing that came to there head like Tyne Cottages but they never told yous locals cos you had other geordie sounding names for them like giv owwer and gaan canny

When I'm allowed to post pics on here? I will show a few letters just came into my possession which will reveal all

Alan your a Clever lad thank you

If I (private) had to serve under anyone it would be you (Major) and White Star Line (Lieutenant Colonel)

Not the Captain bloke who would have me 41 kilometres away behind enemy lines yibuggerman

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Here's the letters
Note: Private A. Webb 2967 2nd NF
Mentioned in the Red Cross letter
Was killed in October of the same year at Loos

fma01.jpg

fma02.jpg

fmb01.jpg

fmb02.jpg

fmc01.jpg

fmc02.jpg

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Cheers Chris

 

Feel free to keep copies of them letters Chris

Franks great nephew (me) does not class anything of mine as copyright (it only suppresses the truth)

Oh and that proves he was in 'D' Coy

And he died on 20th February 1915 (not as CWGC states 22nd February 1915) with the first charge of 'D' Coy in Palingbeek Woods north east of where La Chapelle Farm was then, and south east of Verbrandemolenstraat, Ypres today

 

Here is what 2nd NF War Diary has

 

Saturday 20th February 1915

Arrived at billets at Kruisstraat at 5am

Battalion billeted in houses on each side of the street

At 4 pm Battalion was called out and ordered to proceed to La Chapelle Farm, and on reaching this point were moved up into a large wood

At 11.15pm orders were received to attack two post trenches in conjunction with the Cheshire Regiment

First attack consisting of 60 men of A Company, 60 men of C Company and 60 men of D Company in 3 lines moved through a thick wood and came to an Abatiss in front of the trench they were attacking

(An Abatiss was a field fortification consisting of an obstacle formed of the branches of trees laid in a row, with the sharpened tops directed outwards, towards the enemy. The trees are usually interlaced or tied with wire. Abatiss are used alone or in combination with wire entanglements and other obstacles)

And in getting through this and attempting to charge were practically wiped out

Lieutenant’s Legard, Brownlow and Jenkins being wounded

A second attack ordered for 2am consisting of B Company and details of D and A Company up to 150 men failed also for the same reason as the first

Battalion was withdrawn at 5am and marched back to Kruisstraat

Casualties for night of 20th and 21st 30 Officers wounded and 61 other ranks

6 Other ranks killed and 40 missing

 

Sunday 21st February 1915

Spent the day in billets at Kruisstraat and in the evening moved out at 9pm to the Infantry Barracks at Ypres

Casualties for second period in trenches 5 Officers wounded

20 other ranks killed, 105 wounded, 43 missing

 

Monday 22nd February 1915

Spent the day in the Infantry Barracks at Ypres

In the evening received orders to move back next morning to Bailleul

Men were given new boots which were urgently required

 

Tuesday 23rd February 1915

Marched at 6.30am via Vlamertinge and Westoutre to Bailleul which we reached at 11.30am and were placed in Billets in a side street off Main Square

Battalion left the 28th division and joined the 5th division for a month due to the heavy casualties in the 5th division


There are 30 soldiers of 2nd NF from that time commemorated on a memorial to the missing and two in a cemetery

Edwin Abbott. L/ Serjeant 2894. Ypres (Menin Gate) 
William Whitfield Anderson. Private 3110. Ypres (Menin Gate) 
Bertie George Annetts. Serjeant 7878."B" Coy. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Thomas Blades. Private 8930. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Alexander Robertson Boothman. From Jarrow Private 2822. Ypres (Menin Gate)
John Burn. Private 8806. Bedford House Cemetery

William Burnip. Serjeant 7839. Ypres (Menin Gate)

John Butler. Private 3295. Ypres (Menin Gate)

James Michael Cavagin. Private 2923. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Thomas Alfred Charlesworth. L/Cpl. 1627. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Peter Cornwall. Private 8735. Ypres (Menin Gate)
William Donnison. Private 12743. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Harry Forrester. L/Cpl. 2706. Ypres (Menin Gate)
William Arthur Fuller. Private 2308. Ypres (Menin Gate)
John Gilbert Hope. Private 8745. Ypres (Menin Gate)
William Arthur Hurley. Private 2293. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Samuel Albert Jackson. Serjeant 1131. Ypres (Menin Gate)
William Campbell McDonald. Cpl. 2640. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Frank Monaghan. Born and lived Jarrow Private 3428. Hooge Crater Cemetery (Special Memorial) 
Henry Morriss. Serjeant 1271. "A" Coy. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Joseph Nutley. Private 3408 "B" Coy. Ypres (Menin Gate)
John James O'Hare. Private 8321. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Tom Priestley. L/Cpl. 819. Ypres (Menin Gate)

Robert Reed. Private 2459. Ypres (Menin Gate)
James Robertson. Private 8768. Ypres (Menin Gate)
John Rudd. Private 2354. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Arthur Slingsby. L/Cpl. 475. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Hugh Smith. Private 2458. Ypres (Menin Gate)
John Ernest Spencer. Private 3049. Ypres (Menin Gate)

Frederick Webb. Private 3141. (Dow) Bedford House Cemetery
Wilfred George Woodward. Serjeant 9798. Ypres (Menin Gate)
Joseph Wright. Born and lived Jarrow Private 3416. Ypres (Menin Gate)

 

Addendum 16th May 2017

(This may help someone researching the same)

The Diary states 20 died and 43 missing at that time in Palinbeek Woods - north east of La Chapelle Farm a total of 63

So that's still another 31 of 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers missing and unaccounted for in Palingbeek Woods on the 20th February 1915?

 

Edited by Curlew1919
Again sorry! I had to correct more mistakes
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Chris

I you notice the stretcher bearer took everything off Frank (even his Rosary Beads round his neck)

I know it had to be registered with someone

But later on when they come to rebury the bodies??????

 

Take Frank's older brother William Monaghan killed a few months later in May 1915 at Sanctuary Wood with 1st Royal Scots (they probably stripped all ID off him)

William and 52 of his mates in 1st RS are killed at Sanctuary Wood in May 1915 and they are all on that pompous Menin Gate watsit to the missing

There are nearly 2000 unidentified headstones to "A Soldier of the Great War" "Known onto God" in Sanctuary Wood Cemetery

What a disgrace by blunderers of the powers that be who did not care as Siegfred Sassoon says in his poem (On Passing the New Menin Gate)

 

Here was the world's worst wound. And here with pride

'Their name liveth for evermore' the Gateway claims.

Was ever an immolation so belied

As these intolerably nameless names?

Well might the Dead who struggled in the slime

Rise and deride this sepulchre of crime'

Edited by Curlew1919
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  • Admin
Quote

But later on when they come to rebury the bodies??????

Once the bodies were buried they would have recorded the details and  position and then added a grave marker - there was no reason to leave any effects with the bodies.

The reason many bodies were not later identified to be re-buried as 'known'  was down to the fact that they'd been destroyed by shelling and so couldn't be tied in to a particular individual in most cases - leaving any effects with the bodies wouldn't have helped.

 

Craig

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Someone has put on this forum these details:

588003 = identified burial
527074= commemorated on memorial
187865=unidentified war burials

So someone needs a better excuse than the effects of shelling I am afraid ..................

 

Edited by Curlew1919
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Anyhow I have said enough on this topic more than my 5%

I will just sign out with this:

Frank Monaghan's last days pay which they sent to his father William Monaghan as a Postal Order dated 17th March 1920

R. A. T. A.? Gratuity (big deal)

His father William Monaghan died on the 24th January 1920 aged 74 (2 months earlier)

1s 8d (yes 1s 6d postal order with 2 x 1d stamps = 1s 8d)

Anyway as I have found out Frank died 2 days earlier than they said (he died on the 20th not the 22nd) 

So that's two days pay the powers that be are owed

So 2 x 1s 8d = 3s 4d (between 16p and 17p in today's money)

 

Bye ....................................

 

fm13.jpg

fm14.jpg

fm15.jpg

fm16.jpg

Edited by Curlew1919
mistakes
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Update:

 

Just had a really fast response from CWGC (I sent them the letters in my above posts)

Here it is (name of lady in Records section protected)

 

Thank you for your email and the attachments you kindly sent  regarding  Private Monaghan.
 
You will be pleased to hear that we have amended our records and this will appear on the website at the next update and where possible we will make arrangements to amend the special memorial headstone.
 
Thank you again  for bringing this to our attention.
 
Kind regards
 
***** *******
Records Section
 
***** *******
Records Administrator  Research/Library

Commonwealth War Graves Commission
2 Marlow Road, Maidenhead, Berkshire, SL6 7DX, United Kingdom
Tel: +44 1628 634221  |  Ext: 1201  |  Direct: +44 1628 507201  |  Fax:  +44 1628 771208  |  Website: www.cwgc.org

 

So at the next update at CWGC:

 

Frank Monaghan Private 3428
2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers
Age 23 who died on 22nd February 1915
 

Will be amended to:

Frank Monaghan Private 3428
‘D’ Coy. 2nd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers
Age 23 who died on 20th February 1915

 

So what some will say?

 

On the 20th February 2nd NF were at Palingbeek Woods north east of La Chapelle Farm 

On the 22nd February 2nd NF were at the Infantry Barracks at Ypres (5 to 6 kilometres away)

En route to Bailleul next day over the border in France 20 kilometres away

"What a difference a day makes".....

 

Edited by Curlew1919
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On 5/14/2017 at 12:24, Curlew1919 said:

Not the Captain bloke who would have me 41 kilometres away behind enemy lines yibuggerman

 

That will be the Captain bloke who gave you the place at the co-ordinates you asked for (4 times)?  Silly him for not correcting your mistake!

 

On 5/13/2017 at 18:48, Curlew1919 said:

2/ The co-ordinates of where Private Frank Monaghan's grave was last seen at La Chapelle Farm 29.I.33.b.3.9

 

On 5/13/2017 at 22:42, Curlew1919 said:

For the Monaghan one it is the whereabouts of a Cemetery that was at a place called La Chapelle Farm, Zillebeke I'm after with the co-ordinates of 29.I.33.b.3.9

The small cemetery was obliterated off the face of the earth during WW1 and the bodies could not be found

That's why they put commemorative headstones (no bodies in grave) 12 of them commemorated on the special memorial at Hooge Crater Cem

There poor souls are still there today somewhere at co-ordinates  29.I.33.b.3.9

Hope nobodies built a Bed and Breakfast onnit at 29.I.33.b.3.9 (third time lucky)

 

Edited by Phil Wood
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On 5/18/2017 at 13:40, Phil Wood said:

 

That will be the Captain bloke who gave you the place at the co-ordinates you asked for (4 times)?  Silly him for not correcting your mistake!

 

 

 

Ok sorry I gave the wrong co - ordinates due to ignorance

But others their experience showed through and they corrected it

After all I am just a lowly Corporal (now)

 

Tell me "What have you done today that makes you feel good"

Edited by Curlew1919
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Update:

Frank Monaghan date of death has been changed now (quick) from the 22nd February 1915 to the 20th February 1915 at CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/458863/MONAGHAN, FRANK

 

There are another 29 from 2nd NF who are on CWGC on the Menin Gate who are down as death 21st or 22nd February 1915

They also should have their death as 20th February 1915 if the truth be known

I got the date of my great uncle Frank changed only because of the letters that just recently came into my possession

 

Can anyone think of a way to get the correct date the other 29 who died? on CWGC

I cannot

Is that the best I can do? Can I do any more?

Has anyone been in a similar position and got dates corrected for a number of people in the same Battalion?

As the 2nd NF War diary states they were in action on the 20th February (the 29 who are on the memorial to the missing)

And on the 21st and 22nd the Battalion were in Billets at Kruisstraat or Infantry Barracks at Ypres

Edited by Curlew1919
to correct spelling
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  • 4 years later...
On 14/05/2017 at 14:29, Curlew1919 said:

Here's the letters
Note: Private A. Webb 2967 2nd NF
Mentioned in the Red Cross letter
Was killed in October of the same year at Loos

@David_Blanchard This thread is worth a read. I came across it earlier. Very  interesting is the letter explaining about the 12 men buried at La Chapelle farm. Hope it is of use to you. Regards, Bob.

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