SteveE Posted 8 May , 2017 Share Posted 8 May , 2017 According to the MH106/919 records available online on FWR a good number of men of the 25th Bn. Royal Fusiliers were admitted to No.2 General Hospital at Quai De Escales, Le Havre on 20th January 1916 and on 24th January 1916 were sent to the UK aboard the "Copenhagen". These men had been invalided from East Africa (very likely aboard the "Berwick Castle") and had been disembarked at Marseille before their journey across France to Le Havre. Does anybody know if there was a specific evacuation route across France from Marseille to Le Havre, whether these men would have been transported via an ambulance train and if so any ideas as to how I could find out which one in particular? Thanks in advance Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 11 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 11 May , 2017 (edited) I think it would be fairly certain that they would have gone by Ambulance Train (AT). I have a few AT War Diaries and you do see from time to time (not often, for obvious reasons) journeys to/from Marseille - an example shown below from AT 22 (including stopping at Le Havre). But the AT diaries I've looked don't appear to conform to any particular pattern or routes - they just go all over the place - I assume ordered to do so when needed and depending on, for example, a train's availability and current location at any given time. There were lots of ATs - they were numbered - not sure how many there were - but I think their numbers increased throughout the conflict. So I'm not sure how you will find which AT it was that transported your RF men. I found the ATs that I was interested in because they were mentioned explicitly in the relevant Army War diary. So did your RF men fall under any higher authority e.g. Brigade, Corps, Army at this time? If they did, then it would be worth looking at these higher formation war diaries to see if an AT is mentioned. My understanding is that AT movements were controlled by at least Army level Regards Russ Edited 11 May , 2017 by RussT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 13 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 13 May , 2017 Russ Thanks for your assistance, at least I know that Marseille to Le Havre by Ambulance Train is a distinct possibility. Unfortunately, I presume, as 'my men' were simply passing through on the journey home that they wouldn't have come under any higher Brigade, Corps etc. authority so those war diaries are a non starter? It looks as if it's a long haul through individual ambulance train war diaries to see if any have dates that tie in with 'my men' arriving in Le Havre on 20th January 1916 and that originated in Marseille. Thanks again Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 13 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 13 May , 2017 (edited) That might prove quite a costly exercise ! And I wouldn't have thought the No 2 General Hospital war diary for the relevant month/year would be of much use (in my experience at looking at hospital war diaries) - but it might be worth a single purchase before looking at all the AT diaries for the same month/year. But I would start with the Havre Base Director of Medical Services War Diary for the relevant month/year. The analogous DDMS War Diary I have (over the month/year I was interested in) for the Boulogne Base lists the specific AT number arrivals for each day. So you might strike lucky. I think it is the first one on this list covering 1916 (careful - when I now click on the link below it seems to appear anywhere in the top 8 of the list - you need the one for 1916). http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_q="medical"+AND+"havre" If you go for it, let me know if it had the information you needed. Russ Edited 13 May , 2017 by RussT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 14 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 14 May , 2017 (edited) Further to the above, it might also be worthwhile looking in the relevant War Diary (straggling the Jan 1916 period) of the Assistant Director of Ambulance Trains. You should find it at or towards the top of this list: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_q="director"+AND+"ambulance" I've never looked at those AD of AT War Diaries so I'm unsure what they might contain - but I would interested in learning generally what they do contain - so if you decide to give it a go I hope you can report back. Regards Russ Edited 14 May , 2017 by RussT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 14 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 14 May , 2017 Just came across this chart, so I thought it might be of some us to post it here: From Vol 2 of the General History of the Medical Services - showing the increase in the number of ATs during the war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 15 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2017 On 13/05/2017 at 20:44, RussT said: I would start with the Havre Base Director of Medical Services War Diary for the relevant month/year. The analogous DDMS War Diary I have (over the month/year I was interested in) for the Boulogne Base lists the specific AT number arrivals for each day. So you might strike lucky. I think it is the first one on this list covering 1916 (careful - when I now click on the link below it seems to appear anywhere in the top 8 of the list - you need the one for 1916). http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_q="medical"+AND+"havre" If you go for it, let me know if it had the information you needed. Russ Russ For the sake of a few quid I 'went for it' but "Havre Base: Director Medical Services" war diary drew a blank as far as the information I need went. Early part of 1916 in the diary is taken up with daily itinerary, i.e. hospitals, convalescent camps visited in the morning, afternoon etc. In August 1916 it does become more interesting in that it lists Hospital Ship sailings with numbers of invalids onboard and does, on the rare occasion, mention an ambulance train but that is more often to do with the fact that one didn't turn up on that particular day. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 15 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 15 May , 2017 (edited) On 14/05/2017 at 12:52, RussT said: Further to the above, it might also be worthwhile looking in the relevant War Diary (straggling the Jan 1916 period) of the Assistant Director of Ambulance Trains. You should find it at or towards the top of this list: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_col=200&_q="director"+AND+"ambulance" I've never looked at those AD of AT War Diaries so I'm unsure what they might contain - but I would interested in learning generally what they do contain - so if you decide to give it a go I hope you can report back. Regards Russ Russ Also had a look at this one, again no specific information for me and rather than go into detail what the diary contains it's probably easier for me to give you a random sample snippet which pretty much shows what the diary is about..... Steve Extract is from Lines of Communication Troops. Assistant Director Ambulance Trains, War Diary. The National Archives' reference WO 95/4129/1. Edited 15 May , 2017 by SteveE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 15 May , 2017 Share Posted 15 May , 2017 Steve I have been tracking the route give by Russ in the war diary in post 2. If you follow it on google maps, the train route still exists through the places mentioned. Jurvisy is on the outskirts of Paris and is a major railway junction, with one line running west around Paris and on to Rouen and then Le Havre. It looks like a good bet. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 15 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 15 May , 2017 Steve Sorry to hear none of those diaries were of much help - that's a annoying. Can't really think of which diary (or diaries) to look at next - short of looking at all the individual AT diaries ! At least you know, from the Chart in post #6, that there would "only" be 21 individual AT diaries to look at - a bit more than a few quid (so a trip to Kew perhaps?). I haven't checked TNA on whether they all exist for the relevant period. As an aside, just noticed from that Chart that there was no AT numbered 13 - a nice touch to ease the concern of any patient who may have been a tad superstitious ! Hope you find what you are after - let us know if you do. Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 16 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2017 21 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said: Steve I have been tracking the route give by Russ in the war diary in post 2. If you follow it on google maps, the train route still exists through the places mentioned. Jurvisy is on the outskirts of Paris and is a major railway junction, with one line running west around Paris and on to Rouen and then Le Havre. It looks like a good bet. TR Terry It looks as if you could well be right, the route taken by Russ's 22 Ambulance Train still exists so I don't see why it shouldn't be the case. It's been quite a surprise for me to find men of the 25th Royal Fusiliers being transported across France, not a route I'd initially ever given any thought to. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 16 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2017 17 hours ago, RussT said: Steve Sorry to hear none of those diaries were of much help - that's a annoying. Can't really think of which diary (or diaries) to look at next - short of looking at all the individual AT diaries ! At least you know, from the Chart in post #6, that there would "only" be 21 individual AT diaries to look at - a bit more than a few quid (so a trip to Kew perhaps?). I haven't checked TNA on whether they all exist for the relevant period. Russ I think it's going to necessitate a visit to Kew at some point and check individual ambulance train war diaries, if available, as downloading them from TNA could prove costly, knowing my luck it'd be the 21st diary I looked at.... Thanks for your help on this subject. Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 16 May , 2017 Share Posted 16 May , 2017 32 minutes ago, SteveE said: Russ I think it's going to necessitate a visit to Kew at some point and check individual ambulance train war diaries, if available, as downloading them from TNA could prove costly, knowing my luck it'd be the 21st diary I looked at.... Thanks for your help on this subject. Regards Steve For elimination purposes, I have No 4 Ambulance Train diary and it did not travel that route. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 16 May , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 May , 2017 36 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said: For elimination purposes, I have No 4 Ambulance Train diary and it did not travel that route. TR Terry Many thanks for that, that's one that I don't need to worry about then.... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 16 May , 2017 Admin Share Posted 16 May , 2017 (edited) On 15/05/2017 at 19:21, RussT said: As an aside, just noticed from that Chart that there was no AT numbered 13 - a nice touch to ease the concern of any patient who may have been a tad superstitious ! Just thought I might dig around as to why there was no Ambulance Train with Number 13. I didn't find the official reason why, but the decision not to have one was made here (from Vol 4 of the General History of the Medical Services): Russ EDIT: "Mystery" apparently solved: AT 13 served in Ireland: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01zkjc1 Edited 16 May , 2017 by RussT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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