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Remembered Today:

Signed to overseas service


ForeignGong

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Hi All

 

I'm looking at some service papers and one chap has  annotation that he is serving in3rd Fld Amb, East Lanc Div, RAMC (TF), Apr 1908. Then another stating "Signed to serve overseas, 3 Sept 1914.". then he is embodied, 5 Sept 1914.

 

The way I read it, this means that he is entitled to wear the "Imperial Service" badge, is this right???

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Would it be in his service papers as I can't see it any where, one possibility is that I don't have all his papers.

 

Peter

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52 minutes ago, ForeignGong said:

Would it be in his service papers as I can't see it any where, one possibility is that I don't have all his papers.

 

Peter

A full set had a form which a man signed to agree to overseas service as a Territorial but records have, between weeding and fires, lost a lot of the forms.

 

Craig

 

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Thanks very much Craig, it only makes a notation that he signed to serve overseas. I will see if the owner of the paperwork has an extra page, don't think so as he gave me his file.

 

Peter

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As Craig rightly says, there was an Army Form E724 which was signed in order to accept the "Imperial Service" obligation.  However, not all files have these surviving (same could be said for the Casualty Form, Conduct Sheet, and many other bits of paper).  It was also possible to indicate willingness to serve abroad by making a verbal statement, or indeed even the physical one of stepping forward on a parade ground, and there may have been different ways of recording this.

 

If the man in question was awarded the Territorial Force War Medal 1914-18 then it can be taken as read that he had a fair amount of pre-war TF service and had also indicated his willingness to serve overseas prior to late September 1914.  

 

Clive

 

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Lt George Carroll

Joined Lancashire Fusiliers Inf Bde, (Vols), 5 Jan 1904 with Service No. 17.

Transferred to Territorial Force, 14 Apr 1908 into 3rd Field Ambulance, East Lancashire Division, RAMC (TF) with Service No 635 as a Serjeant.

Prom Staff Serjeant, 1 Jun 1911.

Received a new Service No 115 in 1914.

Signed to serve Overseas, 3 Sept 1914.

Embodied, 5 Sept 1914.

Embarked from Southampton as a Staff Serjeant, 10 Sept 1914 and disembarked Alexandria, 26 Sept 1914.

1915 Star trio, MID for Gallipoli, TFEM and Medaille Militaire also for Gallipoli. TFEM missing from group.

Promoted QM Lt served in Salonika.

 

Thanks Clive, I take it could have been any one of your scenarios above.

 

As I stated above this is a very old and hard to read set of papers, I think they were obtained quite some time ago.

 

Thanks

 

Peter

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Hi,

 

6 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

If the man in question was awarded the Territorial Force War Medal 1914-18 then it can be taken as read that he had a fair amount of pre-war TF service and had also indicated his willingness to serve overseas prior to late September 1914

 

I've read that before. However, two of my great uncles were awarded the TFWM. Based on their yeomanry numbers one appears to have joined late 1913/early 1914, and the other after the outbreak of the war. My understanding of their qualification for the medal was that as TF soldiers they had volunteered for overseas service before 30th September 1914, but didn't actually serve in theatre before 1916, as the TFWM entitlement would have been replaced by a Star award.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

Edited by clk
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Hi Chris,

I got Howard Williamson's reference work out.  He quotes Army Order 143 of 26 April 1920, authorising the TFWM, as follows: awarded to members of the TF and TFNS who were serving on 4 August 1914 OR had completed not less than 4 years service with the TF prior to 4 Aug. 1914 and rejoined the Force on or before 30 September 1914. 

 

These persons then had to have undertaken verbally or by written agreement on or before 30 Sept 1914 to serve outside the UK, such agreement being operative after 4 Aug. 1914.  They also had to be passed as physically fit to serve overseas between 4 Aug.-30 Sept. 1914; and to have so served between 5 Aug. 1914 and 11 November 1918 inclusive.  And did not qualify for the award of the 1914 or 1914-15 Stars.  

 

One of your great uncles was indeed serving on the outbreak of war: the regulations above might possibly suggest the other one had re-enlisted after 4 Aug. (would fit his having a new number) but could demonstrate at least 4 years previous service?  Not sure if this squares with the family history; but according to these rules the TFWM couldn't be awarded to those who were brand new TF entrants after 4 Aug. 1914.  

 

Clive

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Hi Clive,

 

Thanks for digging out the reference source, and posting the either/or qualification criteria.

 

12 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

One of your great uncles was indeed serving on the outbreak of war: the regulations above might possibly suggest the other one had re-enlisted after 4 Aug. (would fit his having a new number) but could demonstrate at least 4 years previous service?  Not sure if this squares with the family history; but according to these rules the TFWM couldn't be awarded to those who were brand new TF entrants after 4 Aug. 1914.

 

The chap I'm having difficulty explaining away is:

 

Len.jpg.2c0eb978e370c540bab7475dfd6e248c.jpg

 

Unfortunately, he doesn't have surviving service papers. Looking at Paul Nixon's numbering website, number 871 joined the Wiltshire Yeomanry on 8th August 1914, My man has the number 2111, so presumably it was allocated sometime after that. I don't think though that he could of completed not less than 4 years service with the TF prior to 4th August 1914 - left; re-joined, and was allocated a new 'higher' number. He was born on 23rd July 1896. Do you know if pre war was it possible to join the TF/yeomanry at the age of 14, or younger?

 

Regards

Chris

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31 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Clive,

 

Thanks for digging out the reference source, and posting the either/or qualification criteria.

 

 

The chap I'm having difficulty explaining away is:

 

Len.jpg.2c0eb978e370c540bab7475dfd6e248c.jpg

 

Unfortunately, he doesn't have surviving service papers. Looking at Paul Nixon's numbering website, number 871 joined the Wiltshire Yeomanry on 8th August 1914, My man has the number 2111, so presumably it was allocated sometime after that. I don't think though that he could of completed not less than 4 years service with the TF prior to 4th August 1914 - left; re-joined, and was allocated a new 'higher' number. He was born on 23rd July 1896. Do you know if pre war was it possible to join the TF/yeomanry at the age of 14, or younger?

 

Regards

Chris

TF was was age 14 onwards, Chris.
 

#2119 attested 22 Nov 1915

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007272808%2f00328&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7272808%2f25%2f328

 

It may be that he was a (young) TF member on 4 Aug 1914, signed up for overseas service and then was then discharged. Later re-joining the forces in 1915.

 

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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