help to identify soldier uniform ans stripes on arm please

[MBrockway]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Ros, the AOC badge was quite distinctive, relatively small, and comprised just a simple shield and scroll.  I think the badge he wears by the eiffel tower is still the DCLI, which I also enclose

 

 

You could be right Frogsmile - both DCLI and RE are (roughly) circular - though there some others in the photo wearing clearer RE badges such as this chap whose shoulder title the Aussie Pal behind him has kindly elevated to show what looks like a flaming grenade?

 

 

The absence of pioneer collar badge should not rule out DCLI as I know the KRRC's remaining pioneer battalion converted to standard infantry when they became part of the Army of Occupation.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

You could be right Frogsmile - both DCLI and RE are (roughly) circular - though there some others in the photo wearing clearer RE badges such as this chap whose shoulder title the Aussie Pal behind him has kindly elevated to show what looks like a flaming grenade?

 

 

The absence of pioneer collar badge should not rule out DCLI as I know the KRRC's remaining pioneer battalion converted to standard infantry when they became part of the Army of Occupation.

 

I think this man is DCLI too and the shoulder title is a side-on (oblique) view of the unit abbreviation topped by the omnipresent LI bugle.

 

Edited 26 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

Again, you could be right - I have an open mind.

 

Here are some more.  Right hand one is clearly RE.  Centre could be ASC and the left is pretty good for Labour Corps with the scroll tucked under the chinstrap.

Edited 26 April , 2017 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

33 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

You could be right Frogsmile - both DCLI and RE are (roughly) circular - though there some others in the photo wearing clearer RE badges such as this chap whose shoulder title the Aussie Pal behind him has kindly elevated to show what looks like a flaming grenade?

 

 

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I think this man is DCLI too and the shoulder title is a side-on (oblique) view of the unit abbreviation topped by the omnipresent LI bugle.

 

 

 

Certainly not likely to be a flaming grenade in this position anyway - there never was such an ST worn by the sappers!  My brain getting its wires crossed with collar badges I think!

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

 

 

Certainly not likely to be a flaming grenade in this position anyway - there never was such an ST worn by the sappers!  My brain getting its wires crossed with collar badges I think!

 

No that's true.  If you compare our subject cap badge with the other that you think "RE" and make allowance for the former's cap being tipped back, then I think that they are one and the same DCLI badge with shape and voiding almost identical.

Edited 26 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd go with DCLI.

[MBrockway]

21 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Don't worry, despite the distractions, I am still chasing down the unit by some other devious means!

 

Just to finish this rabbit off ...

 

Here's the sergeant's ribbon in close-up and a colour inverted version ...

 

Military Medal (MM)

Meritorious Service Medal (MSM) with the three white stripes used from Aug 1917 ...

 

The MSM in peacetime was normally only issued to LSGC medal holders, but in Jan 1917 it was adapted to recognise individual acts of gallantry not in the presence of the enemy.

 

If it is indeed the MSM (of which I am by NO MEANS certain) then that might help identify the unit - sergeant in a DCLI pioneer battalion awarded MSM Aug 1917 or later and photo after start of 1918.

 

Mark

 

 

Returning to the Sergeant with (possibly) the MSM ribbon up, here are my frontrunners after a lot of legwork  ...

 

28124 Serjeant Joseph William IRELAND, 10/DCLI from Carlton (several possible locations called Carlton unfortunately, and none in Cornwall)

1405, later 240082 Serjeant John Courtney STOCKMAN, 1st/5th DCLI from Lockingate Bugle, near St Austell, Cornwall

 

Of all the dozens of DCLI MSM recipients, by coincidence these two pioneer battalion sergeants were gazetted in the same edition of the London Gazette - 1919 Issue 31370, p.6865, published on 03 Jun 1919 as the Fifth Supplement to the LG of 30 May 1919.

 

These two were the only DCLI MSM recipients who were plain serjeants or lance serjeants (substantive, temporary or acting) at the time of their award.

 

To be certain of the identification one would really need to check all the Privates and Corporals - our Serjeant may have made his three stripes after he got the MSM - as well as checking the more senior serjeants.  However I'll let others take that task on as there's now enough to attempt a cross reference with the OBLI subaltern! 

 

If the ID is accurate, then we can date the photo to later than June 1919 and much closer to the Paris photo.

 

If someone with access to the 10/DCLI and 1st/5th DCLI war diaries (or any other DCLI regimental sources) could do some digging for evidence of a DCLI platoon in summer 1919 commanded by an attached OBLI 2/Lt, then we should have our unit!

 

Mark

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

 

Returning to the Sergeant with (possibly) the MSM ribbon up, here are my frontrunners after a lot of legwork  ...

 

28124 Serjeant Joseph William IRELAND, 10/DCLI from Carlton (several possible locations called Carlton unfortunately, and none in Cornwall)

1405, later 240082 Serjeant John Courtney STOCKMAN, 1st/5th DCLI from Lockingate Bugle, near St Austell, Cornwall

 

Of all the dozens of DCLI MSM recipients, by coincidence these two pioneer battalion sergeants were gazetted in the same edition of the London Gazette - 1919 Issue 31370, p.6865, published on 03 Jun 1919 as the Fifth Supplement to the LG of 30 May 1919.

 

These two were the only DCLI MSM recipients who were plain serjeants or lance serjeants (substantive, temporary or acting) at the time of their award.

 

To be certain of the identification one would really need to check all the Privates and Corporals - our Serjeant may have made his three stripes after he got the MSM - as well as checking the more senior serjeants.  However I'll let others take that task on as there's now enough to attempt a cross reference with the OBLI subaltern! 

 

If the ID is accurate, then we can date the photo to later than June 1919 and much closer to the Paris photo.

 

If someone with access to the 10/DCLI and 1st/5th DCLI war diaries (or any other DCLI regimental sources) could do some digging for evidence of a DCLI platoon in summer 1919 commanded by an attached OBLI 2/Lt, then we should have our unit!

 

Mark

 

I became a bit confused, as Ros has apparently positively ID the 1st/5th via a mention of the subject in their war diary.  She posted this in 'Soldiers' some hours ago!

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

No that's true.  If you compare our subject cap badge with the other that you think "RE" and make allowance for the former's cap being tipped back, then I think that they are one and the same DCLI badge with shape and voiding almost identical.

 

36 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

I'd go with DCLI.

I'm comfortable with that.  We certainly have no mention anywhere of Willcox with the RE and Willocx's badge is definitely NOT AOC/RAOC.

 

Some of the other men in the photo have possible DCLI badges, but there are definitely several clear RE badges and ST's in this group.

 

Was reading the History of the Second Division looking for leads on the 10/DCLI (that division's pioneers) and it is very clear from there that the pioneers and RE Field Companies worked very closely together often downing tools to fight off enemy counter-attacks together.

 

It would be entirely plausible to see a mixed group of 10/DCLI and RE sappers on leave in Paris together.  ASC and Labour Corps would also fit into such a grouping.

 

At risk of starting another hare running, both ladies appear to be in uniform too.  Any ideas on units?

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

 

I became a bit confused, as Ros has apparently positively ID the 1st/5th via a mention of the subject in their war diary.  She posted this in 'Soldiers' some hours ago!

Apologies - I've been buried in London Gazettes all morning and hadn't seen Ros's new post.

 

With that info, our serjeant is likely therefore to be

1405, later 240082 Serjeant John Courtney STOCKMAN, 1st/5th DCLI from Lockingate Bugle, near St Austell, Cornwall

 

 

 

[munce]

14 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Following your comments Muerrisch I have had another look at the strange object on our subject's right arm and when turned sideways and looked at longtitidinally I must admit it does not appear as a flaw, but as a symbol of some kind.  Indeed when viewed from that angle it looks rather like 3-Block letters such as IOM, but that seems to be just an optical illusion.  I have seen nothing like it before and so like you I remain baffled.

When I zoomed in to the maximum on the photo, the edge of the 'badge' seems to extend very slightly beyond the sleeve, as if it were either not sewn on properly - or if it is in fact a flaw which by coincidence has a certain regularity to it, is in the right place, etc.

[Stoppage Drill]

12 minutes ago, munce said:

When I zoomed in to the maximum on the photo, the edge of the 'badge' seems to extend very slightly beyond the sleeve, as if it were either not sewn on properly - or if it is in fact a flaw which by coincidence has a certain regularity to it, is in the right place, etc.

 

If it were a brass badge rather than a cloth one, it may appear to extend in the way you suggest.

Now, I know that an infantryman might not normally be allowed to wear it, but it could be a brass artificers/smiths 'Hammer and Tongs' badge.

 

Couldn't it ?

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

 

If it were a brass badge rather than a cloth one, it may appear to extend in the way you suggest.

Now, I know that an infantryman might not normally be allowed to wear it, but it could be a brass artificers/smiths 'Hammer and Tongs' badge.

 

Couldn't it ?

His final posting before he was discharged was to the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, which might lend weight to that idea.

 

I also wondered about the crossed axes Pioneer trade badge, but rejected it on the assumption that a pioneer battalion would not have had specialist Pioneers in the same way a standard infantry battalion would.  I wonder if such a thing as an Establishment table exists anywhere for a pioneer battalion?

 

Mark

 

[Ron Clifton]

20 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

I wonder if such a thing as an Establishment table exists anywhere for a pioneer battalion?

They do, and broadly speaking they are the same as for an ordinary infantry battalion, plus a small number of extra Drivers for the additional tool wagons. As regards the number of actual Pioneers, there were ten plus a Pioneer-Sergeant, whether the battalion were Pioneers or ordinary infantry.

 

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, munce said:

When I zoomed in to the maximum on the photo, the edge of the 'badge' seems to extend very slightly beyond the sleeve, as if it were either not sewn on properly - or if it is in fact a flaw which by coincidence has a certain regularity to it, is in the right place, etc.

 

The problem is that the badge is much too 'white', in the wrong position, and shaped unlike any Army badge I know, including the hammer and pincers.  It reminds me of a censor's obsuration pen stroke.  It might yet be a flaw on the glass plate that was used to 'set' the image.

Edited 26 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Stoppage Drill]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The problem is that the badge is much too 'white', in the wrong position, and shaped unlike any Army badge I know, including the hammer and pincers.  It reminds me of a censor's obsuration pen stroke.  It might yet be a flaw on the glass plate that was used to 'set' the image.

 

That's the most likely thing.

[MBrockway]

7 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

They do, and broadly speaking they are the same as for an ordinary infantry battalion, plus a small number of extra Drivers for the additional tool wagons. As regards the number of actual Pioneers, there were ten plus a Pioneer-Sergeant, whether the battalion were Pioneers or ordinary infantry.

 

Ron

Thanks Ron - much appreciated.

 

The crossed axe Pioneer badge seems unlikely in our group here though - we'd probably expect to see more than one member of the Pioneer Section of a pioneer battalion in a platoon photo and neither serjeant appears to be a Pioneer Serjeant.

 

I've also heard it said that pioneer battalions also had extra Lewis Guns, since they were often obliged to defend against enemy counter-attacks while consolidating newly captured  ground/converting enemy trenches to face the other way etc.

 

Is there any evidence to support that in the Establishment tables?

Mark

 

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Thanks Ron - much appreciated.

 

The crossed axe Pioneer badge seems unlikely in our group here though - we'd probably expect to see more than one member of the Pioneer Section of a pioneer battalion in a platoon photo and neither serjeant appears to be a Pioneer Serjeant.

 

I've also heard it said that pioneer battalions also had extra Lewis Guns, since they were often obliged to defend against enemy counter-attacks while consolidating newly captured  ground/converting enemy trenches to face the other way etc.

 

Is there any evidence to support that in the Establishment tables?

Mark

 

 

It is confirmed, with references, in the book, "No Labour, No Battle, by John Starling (an erstwhile colleague) and Ivor Lee.  That's why I mentioned it already in my specific explanation of pioneers for Ros in the post above.

[robins2]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎25 at 03:48, MBrockway said:

Some other clues that can help the Pals date this photo ...

 

Two sets of Long Service & Good Conduct chevrons in evidence, but cannot see any man wearing more than one chevron.

 

Overseas chevrons seen on at least two men.  Both appear to only have two chevrons up.

 

Two sets of wound stripes visible.  One of the sergeants has two up.

 

 

also two different belts shown , when did the snake belt cease to be issued?

[Lukey87g]

On 26/04/2017 at 13:14, MBrockway said:

Apologies - I've been buried in London Gazettes all morning and hadn't seen Ros's new post.

 

With that info, our serjeant is likely therefore to be

1405, later 240082 Serjeant John Courtney STOCKMAN, 1st/5th DCLI from Lockingate Bugle, near St Austell, Cornwall

 

 

 

I know this was posted last year but would like to say I am so happy to find this post. The Sgt in the picture is my great great uncle John Courtney Stockman. Who was in the 1/5th battalion (cornwall pioneers) in duke of cornwall light infantry regiment. Who actually recieved 3 medals, one of which was the MSN. I do have a few more pictures of him I could share for reference if it helps. Could I ask do you have that original photograph? 

Edited 19 August , 2018 by Lukey87g

[Lukey87g]

On 26/04/2017 at 09:15, RosG said:

 You people are amazing. Thank you. Lots of detective work involved in figuring out where the photo was taken and when. I didnt think to look too closely at the other men in the photo- just Grandad. On the back of the photo is 1918 France and if Grandad joined up in 1916 and served on the Somme he may have been there from that first day of the battle. It would be great to find out where he served throughout but I don't believe there are any service records anywhere and from NZ and without a military background or knowledge this is difficult.

I do have another photo taken at the end of the war just before his repatriation in 1919 and this is attached. Grandad is just to the left above the lady's hat  

grandad wilcox 1919 France back row just above and left of ladies hat.pdf

Guess it might help but he may have been in the AOC by then

Hi RosG I may have some info on your grandfather and where he served while in the pioneers, I will keep you posted. Luke. 

[MBrockway]

14 hours ago, Lukey87g said:

Hi RosG I may have some info on your grandfather and where he served while in the pioneers, I will keep you posted. Luke. 

 

 

Lukey - RosG has not visited the Great War Forum since 4 November 2017 so is unlikely to spot this any time soon. 

 

Your best way of contacting her is by a forum Personal Message. 

 

Assuming she has her notification settings set up correctly, a forum PM should cause her to get an e-mail alert.

 

Mark

 

[Lukey87g]

20 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

 

Lukey - RosG has not visited the Great War Forum since 4 November 2017 so is unlikely to spot this any time soon. 

 

Your best way of contacting her is by a forum Personal Message. 

 

Assuming she has her notification settings set up correctly, a forum PM should cause her to get an e-mail alert.

 

Mark

 

Thank you Mark. 

[Lukey87g]

On 25/04/2017 at 23:48, MBrockway said:

No wonder I've never seen GC chevrons on a a sergeant!

 

I will not attempt to separate the service and gallantry MSM's when I pick this up again tomorrow!

 

Reflecting on tactics this evening,a faster approach might be to scan the war diaries of the two DCLI pioneer battalions for mention of MSM's.  10/DCLI would be the priority, but it might be prudent to scan 1st/5th DCLI anyway despite the ST evidence.

The two cheverons are actually two vertical gold braided stripes that represent wonded in action. In this case he was actually wounded twice. And correct sgt's never received the cheverons as it was expected of them. 

[MBrockway]

On 25/04/2017 at 23:48, MBrockway said:

No wonder I've never seen GC chevrons on a a sergeant!

 

 

6 hours ago, Lukey87g said:

The two cheverons are actually two vertical gold braided stripes that represent wonded in action. In this case he was actually wounded twice. And correct sgt's never received the cheverons as it was expected of them. 

 

 

errr ... I refer the Gentleman to the Reply I made earlier   ....

 

On 25/04/2017 at 10:48, MBrockway said:

Some other clues that can help the Pals date this photo ...

 

Two sets of Long Service & Good Conduct chevrons in evidence, but cannot see any man wearing more than one chevron.

 

Overseas chevrons seen on at least two men.  Both appear to only have two chevrons up.

 

Two sets of wound stripes visible.  One of the sergeants has two up.

 

 

 

Also, a minor correction: a wound stripe did not signify a wound, but a wounding occasion where multiple wounds could have been received.  The soldier would only get a single stripe per event no matter how many wounds he suffered.

 

This sergeant has endured two wounding events, but might have considerably more than two actual wounds.

Edited 21 August , 2018 by MBrockway