help to identify soldier uniform ans stripes on arm please

[RosG]

Can anyone please tell me anything about my grandad? He is pictured at the far left of second row down and has stripes or something on his right arm sleeve. He has badges on his collars. I do not know what these all mean.  The photo was taken in France in 1918

Thanks

 

Ros

I

Grandad Wilcox, first left second row down, France 1918.pdf

[BFBSM]

@RosG, If you could provide a little more information it may help with this request, as the more you give, the more Pals are able to help, e.g. do you know your grandad's regiment? Could you supply his name, and place of birth, etc. as it may be possible someone will have information about him they would like to share.

 

Mark

[Waddell]

The collar badges are those of a pioneer battalion. As suggested by Mark, more details will help.

 

Scott 

[RosG]

William Herbert Wilcox  no 37359  dob 11 April 1899 wincanton Somerset. . Joined up underage in 1916. Served in France. Ended up in 1/5th Duke of Cornwall Light Infantry Dec 1918. Also AOC no 043876. Thought to have first joined 32nd Somerset Infantry, then 4th Devon Infantry and then being drafted into 1/5th DCLI. Survived the war but gassed. Lived until 1990. The info about devon and Somerset infantry may be incorrrect as I cant find any such units. Thanks

[Waddell]

Ros,

 

1/5th DCLI were a pioneer battalion according to the LLT after April 1916 which fits your details-

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/duke-of-cornwalls-light-infantry/

 

The cap badges appears to be light infantry, particularly the officers although the details are a bit indistinct.

 

Others will be able to tell you more. 

 

Scott

[MBrockway]

6 hours ago, RosG said:

William Herbert Wilcox  no 37359  dob 11 April 1899 wincanton Somerset. . Joined up underage in 1916. Served in France. Ended up in 1/5th Duke of Cornwall Light Infantry Dec 1918. Also AOC no 043876. Thought to have first joined 32nd Somerset Infantry, then 4th Devon Infantry and then being drafted into 1/5th DCLI. Survived the war but gassed. Lived until 1990. The info about devon and Somerset infantry may be incorrrect as I cant find any such units. Thanks

 

From the photo in your other post here:

help to identify hat badge please

 

 ... he also seems to have served in the Hampshire Regiment.  As Frogsmile says there though, this may have been the unit into which he enlisted and began his training in the UK.

 

I'll post some close-ups of your picture here shortly - just prepping them for upload.

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

For convenience here's the photo from Ros's attachment embedded into a post ...

 

Here's her grandfather.  Note the badge just above the elbow.  Will dive into Grumpy's trade badge book shortly.

 

 

Some close-ups to follow.

 

Mark

 

[MBrockway]

6 hours ago, Waddell said:

The collar badges are those of a pioneer battalion. As suggested by Mark, more details will help.

 

Scott 

 

Close up of the pick and rifle collar badge indicating a pioneer battalion and the shoulder title.  The ST appears to be a strung hunting horn with regiment or county name in a arc underneath.  That would be consistent with the Durham LI ST of HORN|DURHAM, but would also fit the DCLI's HORN|CORNWALL ...

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Officers cap badge is suggestive of Loyal North Lancs to me.

Michelle 

[Grovetown]

I've looked in G's book, and the only thing that resembles the armbadge (that I could see) was the VTC Marksman's badge. Which seems too unlikely.

 

I've PM'd G in the hope he can shed more light.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

[Ron Clifton]

It could be the signallers' badge - crossed flags - seen from an unusual angle.

 

Ron

[MBrockway]

Here's a close-up of the officer's cap badge.

 

 ... and a couple of the OR's cap badges ...

 

 

The officer's badge is a strung hunting horn with the strings taken upwards into a knot, but I cannot see a crown above the knot - that rules out DLI (K&K 681).  There seems to be lettering in the centre, or it could be the string ends hanging down vertically.

 

The closest match would be OBLI (K&K 658).  Next best is KSLI (K&K 671) but the badge centre does not look cluttered enough. 

 

He could be on attachment to a DCLI battalion, or this could be a course photograph.  Latter option unlikely - looks more like a platoon photo.

 

The OR's badges have a crown with what looks like a scroll immediately underneath.  The rest of the badge is a strung hunting horn.  Again the centre may have letters or it may be the hanging strings we can see.

 

The closest match for the OR's badge IMHO is the DCLI (K&K 641)

 

 

I have not checked any of the VF/TF battalions, which definitely did have some variations from the standard regimental cap badges.  Some cross-referencing with pioneer battalions could probably rule these out though.

 

 

[MBrockway]

15 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Officers cap badge is suggestive of Loyal North Lancs to me.

Michelle 

Sorry - I can't see that I'm afraid!

 

Subaltern in photo ...

 

Loyal N Lancs        OBLI                        KSLI

Some images copyright NE Medals

 

 

[MBrockway]

7 hours ago, RosG said:

Thought to have first joined 32nd Somerset Infantry, <snip>. The info about devon and Somerset infantry may be incorrrect as I cant find any such units. Thanks

 

The DCLI were originally numbered the 32nd Foot.  That's probably where that's come from.

[MBrockway]

Some other clues that can help the Pals date this photo ...

 

Two sets of Long Service & Good Conduct chevrons in evidence, but cannot see any man wearing more than one chevron.

 

Overseas chevrons seen on at least two men.  Both appear to only have two chevrons up.

 

Two sets of wound stripes visible.  One of the sergeants has two up.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I can see exactly why Michelle thought of the Loyal North Lancs in the more distant view, but the closer image makes clear that the platoon commander is attached from the Ox and Bucks Light Infantry.  I concur with Martin's run down and I think that it shows a 1/5th DCLI (Pioneers) platoon photograph.  Flanking the platoon commander are the veteran platoon sergeant and perhaps either, an instructor, or a Lance Sergeant acting as one of the section commanders.  Most of the soldiers are quite young, but they are leavened with a smattering of veteran NCOs with wound stripes and the occasional good conduct badge (inverted stripe on cuff).  I strongly suspect that this photo shows the unit just after it had been made up to strength following the conversion to pioneers and it was probably taken either, at Tidworth before departure for France, or in billets/barracks upon arrival at Le Havre.  Ergo a date of Apr/May 1916.

Looking as closely as I can at the white object on the subject's right arm I believe that it is too irregular in shape and oddly placed on the arm (i.e. it does not sit in a recognised position for a badge) to be anything other than a flaw on the photograph.

 

For Ros:  Pioneers were specialist infantry soldiers and there was usually one battalion per infantry Division.  They had two principal roles and from the outset were intended to be infantrymen trained in semi-skilled engineering.  The concept came from the Colonial British-Indian Army 'Sappers and Miners', who were also trained as infantry.  Very much supported conceptually by Field Marshal Lord Roberts (aka 'Bobs'), their first (offensive) role was to follow up any successful attack with the rapid digging of communication trenches forward from the start of the launching off point to the point captured from the enemy, so that ammunition and reinforcements could be rushed forward by a route out of danger from direct fire, in order that the new position could be consolidated quickly.  Their second principal role (defensively) was to act as a block during any enemy counter attack, or when own forces are withdrawing, and to facilitate this they were equipped with a larger number of Lewis Light Machine Guns than other infantry units.  The pioneer battalions were often made up from men of the labouring classes, such as tin miners (Cornwall), coal miners (Wales, the Midlands and North) and agricultural workers well versed in spade and pick work.  To mark their special purpose as infantry labourers they wore a collar badge representing the two roles, a rifle and a pick.  They were physically tough.

Edited 25 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I can see exactly why Michelle thought of the Loyal North Lancs in the more distant view but the closer image makes clear that the platoon commander is attached from the Ox and Bucks Light Infantry.

 

That's fair enough and my tone above was too harsh!  Apologies to Michelle

 

Mark

 

Edited 25 April , 2017 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

52 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

I've looked in G's book, and the only thing that resembles the armbadge (that I could see) was the VTC Marksman's badge. Which seems too unlikely.

 

I've PM'd G in the hope he can shed more light.

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

 

39 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

It could be the signallers' badge - crossed flags - seen from an unusual angle.

 

Ron

 

I thought Signaller at first glance too, but Grumpy's book has put me off that.  It seems too wide and short.

 

Trumpeter would be an option, except that would not be seen in a LI regiment!

 

We'll have to wait to see what the man says!

 

Mark

 

[Stoppage Drill]

Officer OBLI surely. In addition to badgs, note double Sam Browne shoulder straps.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Officer OBLI surely. In addition to badgs, note double Sam Browne shoulder straps.

 

Indeed.  Also the 'gorget button' on the collar, in place of a badge, a unique regimental feature that is also evident in the OPs photo.  See attached for a close up of both features.

[Steven Broomfield]

The shoulder title is a little unclear and I'm not sure about a 'T' above, so could be 10th DCLI, who were also a Pioneer Battalion.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

The shoulder title is a little unclear and I'm not sure about a 'T' above, so could be 10th DCLI, who were also a Pioneer Battalion.

 

Yes, that is an excellent point Steven, now that I look more closely I can see neither a 5, nor a T, so I think you could well be right.  That could well affect the assumed location of the photo too.  Well spotted!

 

The 10th (Pioneer) Battalion  were:  "Formed at Truro on 29 March 1915 by the Mayor and the City. Moved to Penzance and in October 1915 to Hayle. Adopted by War Office on 24 August 1915.
20 June 1916 : landed at Le Havre and attached as Pioneers to 2nd Division.
16 July – 7 November 1917 : temporarily attached as Pioneers to 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division."

Edited 25 April , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, that is an excellent point Steven, now that I look more closely I can see neither a 5, nor a T, so I think you could well be right.  That could well affect the assumed location of the photo too.  Well spotted!

 

The 10th (Pioneer) Battalion  were:  "Formed at Truro on 29 March 1915 by the Mayor and the City. Moved to Penzance and in October 1915 to Hayle. Adopted by War Office on 24 August 1915.
20 June 1916 : landed at Le Havre and attached as Pioneers to 2nd Division.
16 July – 7 November 1917 : temporarily attached as Pioneers to 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division."

 

Also as Overseas Service chevrons are visible on at least two of the men (back row, 3rd from left; and second row down, RH end with specs), the photo must be later than start of 1918 when these began to be issued.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

 

Also as Overseas Service chevrons are visible on at least two of the men (back row, 3rd from left; and second row down, RH end with specs), the photo must be later than start of 1918 when these began to be issued.

 

Yes, another really good spot, Martin.  Perhaps a celebratory, 'survivors' platoon photo then.

[Steven Broomfield]

The sergeant to (our) right of the officer appears to have a medal ribbon.