John Sutcliffe Dispatch rider

[D Rider]

afternoon all, I've been directed here by some people in the western front association.

 

I'm trying to find out any info on my great great grandfather

-John Sutcliffe

-From Hebden bridge area

-He seems to have joined the 17th service battalion, West yorks regt on 21st December 1914 aged 25 and married (whilst living in the barnsley area)with the service number of 166146, I presume anyway as the typed number above it has been crossed out (17 underscored with 475) (all this gen is from the attestation form).

-From a newspaper clipping I've got of his golden wedding anniversary it says that he 'served in france as a dispatch rider in the 66th Div of the Anzacs and was gassed' but I take it that

the 66th was a British div and attached to an anzac unit of some size?

 

Are there any west yorks experts on here that would be able to help me narrow my search down?

 

many thanks

 

mat

Edited 16 April , 2017 by D Rider

[ss002d6252]

The 66th division - http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/66th-2nd-east-lancashire-division/

 

I can't see any mention of it working under an Australian command but the 1 and 2nd ANZAC corps etc were in France so it's possible the division may have worked under the command at some point - someone will arrive at some point who knows one way or the other.

 

#166146 is a later number from service with the 526 Home Employment Company of the Labour Corps (as per the silver war badge rolls) which he held until he was discharged on 5 Feb 1919.

 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

There are some partial service records for him - http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007365291%2f00786&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7365291%2f29%2f786

Jan 16 - Posted to 19th West Yorks
Sep 16 - Posted to 88th Bn Training Reserve (the 19th West Yorks were re-named)
Feb 17 - Posted to the 25th Works Bn DLI
July 17 - Posted to the Labour Corps
June 18 - Released to the Army Reserve
 

The service records would indicate no overseas service - 'Home' from 21 Dec 14 - 5 Feb 1919. None of the units he is listed with on the surviving records served overseas and I can't see any obvious medal index card to show any overseas service.

 

Craig

 

[D Rider]

 how do,

   hmmm thanks for the info, I wonder if it IS the same person then? I've a signature on a census page for 1911 that is definately him and his wife, the one on the attestation form and both look nigh on the same.....Will have to spend more time in the library I guess ;-)

 

mat

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, D Rider said:

 how do,

   hmmm thanks for the info, I wonder if it IS the same person then? I've a signature on a census page for 1911 that is definately him and his wife, the one on the attestation form and both look nigh on the same.....Will have to spend more time in the library I guess ;-)

 

mat

Where did you get the attestation paper from ? (do you have another one ?) Do you know what his address was ?

Craig

Edited 16 April , 2017 by ss002d6252

[D Rider]

I found a copy on ancestry at the library, his address was in Barnsley which is the only thing that is making me wonder , as he and his wife lived near hebden bridge until at least 1911 (census).

m

[ss002d6252]

Just now, D Rider said:

I found a copy on ancestry at the library, his address was in Barnsley which is the only thing that is making me wonder , as he and his wife lived near hebden bridge until at least 1911 (census).

m

The silver war badge card for 166146 gives an address of 14 Peel Street, Barnsley - is that the card you found ?

Craig

[D Rider]

looks more like17 John st, going by the print out I got (quite small font). I can try and scan and attach?

m

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, D Rider said:

looks more like17 John st, going by the print out I got (quite small font). I can try and scan and attach?

m

Please, if possible.

Craig

[D Rider]

for some reason the library printer would not print the page to fit the whole thing on the a4 properly so I could only print what I could see on the screen and at that size, tis pants!...........

[Mark1959]

What was his wife's name?

There are more records for 166146. This confirms 17 John St Barnsley. It also gives that man's wife as Alice Ann nee Bannister. They married on 27/9/1913. They had a son Christopher 23/11/1913.

 

You have stated that he was married in 1911 so that would indicate 166146 is not your GGGF. Is your ancestor's wife called Frances? There is Hebden Bridge 1911 census record for a John and Frances. 

Known details of the life of your GGGF may help in tracking down the correct service details

 

Edited 16 April , 2017 by Mark1959

[D Rider]

aye John n Frances sutcliffe is them, she was 4 yrs older than him.....how did you find out the marriage details of 166146? I guess if I'd had more time at the library I could have found that out aswell?  what other info do you think would help narrow his service down?

 

thanks mark

 

mat

[Mark1959]

Likely DOB. parents etc. It just any bit of info we can link to any service record that may exist for your GGGF. There are a lot of people on this forum with different bits of knowledge. It is often just one bit of personal detail that links the man to any military record that helps one of the people like Craig make the connection. 

In this case Ancestry has more service info than FMP. Indeed quite a few pages. On one of those it had details of his marriage. So due to one detail you provided, in this case Frances, we know now the we can exclude166146. 

The search continues..

Edited 16 April , 2017 by Mark1959

[clk]

Hi Mat,

 

If you can be reasonably confident where he was living you might be able to get a short list of contenders using surviving AVLs - Barnsley has one, Apparently Halifax does too. Not sure about Hebden Bridge though - see this post on another forum.

 

Regards

Chris

[kenf48]

Dispatch Riders were mainly (but not exclusively) posted to, and served in, the Signals Section, Royal Engineers.

In this case it would probably be 66th Divisional Signals Company.

 

I found a Pioneer 281981 John Sutcliffe, his medal roll shows 9th Training Reserve Bn. which was at Rugeley.  He was aged 29 when he was discharged from the Bedford Signals Depot. due to sickness on 19 July 1918.  He enlisted 29.1.1917. And served overseas (Silver War Badge Rolls). Possible (?)

 

Ken

 

 

Edited 16 April , 2017 by kenf48

[Mark1959]

A previous thread says Calderdale Council Library have an AVL for Hebden Bridge. I have looked at electoral registers. 1911 census has John and Frances at 7 Beechwood View, Charlestown. John appears in a succession of registers up to 1915 at that address. There are no registers for 1916 and 1917. In 1918 he is in the register but with the ref NM that means on military service. In 1919 he is still at Beechwod View but with the ref R that means resident; so no longer in the army. Ditto 1920.

The. Register of electors for 1919 is actually headed Spring 1919. So we know the John we are looking for is out of the army by then. 

This is also further clear evidence that 166146 is not our man. 

I think the next job for Mat is to get to the library and hope the AVL is helpful with a service number or regiment. 

In the 1939 Register they are still living locally. That register gives their dates of birth as

John 8/4/1889

Frances 20/4/1885

Edited 17 April , 2017 by Mark1959

[D Rider]

thanks for all the gen so far people, it's a shame that when people survive that it's alot harder to find out info on them eh! well it seems so to me, been researching a relative from ww2 for 20 or so years (RAF BC KIA) and the stuff Iv'e found on him is amazing and easy!...

 Mark, the birth and marriage certs I have shows beechwood view for John from birth to marriage(and from the info you've found, whilst married)  They, John and Frances built there own house in 1929/30 (Barfield, oakville road, blackshaw, heptonstall) which they lived in until they died 1962 and '69, which is still there.

     John worked in the mills for all his working life going by the newpaper clipping, in and around Hebden b, would cotton mill workers be exempt from call up (in a reserved occupation)?

 

thanks

M

[Mark1959]

We know he served. The 1918 Electoral Register tell us that. The Absent Voters List may help and I think you need to go and look at it. See my comment above. I think Ken's suggestion is a good one but we have no proof. 

I assume the Richard Sutcliife living at 4 Beechwood View at the same time was his Dad.

What seems fairly certain is his actual service papers no longer exist. 

[D Rider]

   I tried looking on the calderdale website but none of these AVL things for back then just recent ones by the look of it,  I did find digi copies of the halifax herald from back then and looked in the 'hospital section' but couldn't find his name...will have a look at more soon.

   I take it I'd have to go in person after finding out where the correct ones would be (maybe Halifax central library?).  Aye his dad was called Richard, his mother Sarah, not sure on the  address numbers, all the certs just say beechwood view.  The D.O.Bs you state for John and Frances in post 16 are correct mark.

 

thanks M

[ilkley remembers]

D Rider, you might try the Halifax Great Great War Heritage Society. http://www.halifaxgreatwar.org/index.html. If you are not local to the Calderdale area, they have access to the records in the Calderdale Library in Halifax, which will cover Hebden Bridge. The Society can be contacted via their blog page.

[D Rider]

ah tar muchly ir!  I'm north of the wall so tis a bit of a trek down!

[D Rider]

I had a person local to Halifax kindly have a look for the absent voters list in Halifax library but no joy so I'll have to keep looking.

[D Rider]

well I've found some more info and I do believe, 95% sure anyway, that I have my gt gt grandfathers service number thanks to finding a copy of his pension ledger via ancestry.......

[kenf48]

On 16/04/2017 at 21:46, kenf48 said:

Dispatch Riders were mainly (but not exclusively) posted to, and served in, the Signals Section, Royal Engineers.

In this case it would probably be 66th Divisional Signals Company.

 

I found a Pioneer 281981 John Sutcliffe, his medal roll shows 9th Training Reserve Bn. which was at Rugeley.  He was aged 29 when he was discharged from the Bedford Signals Depot. due to sickness on 19 July 1918.  He enlisted 29.1.1917. And served overseas (Silver War Badge Rolls). Possible (?)

 

Ken

 

 

 

So that was him! Good to have it confirmed two years on.  Thanks for posting

 

Ken 

[D Rider]

the beechwood is the clincher in my eyes, he lived in a row of terraces called beechwood view at the time, a newpaper clipping also states him living in beechwood (they are still there), the birth year matches as does the marital status and number of children.  Just a shame that his service records were probably destroyed in ww2. I'll keep on searching mind.....

 

 

WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.