Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

pjwmacro

22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

Recommended Posts

pjwmacro
10 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. Been looking at this photo on the computer. It appears all three of them have some form of insignia on the puggarees of their tropical helmets. I tried blowing this up and playing with the contrast to try and see it better. As with the L.A.M.B photos I have they wore MMG cap badge on soft caps. This is something different and may be an individual unit badge (home/locally produced). On the almost side view it looks quite "lumpy". Maybe you have another photo with a better view of it? In some of the pictures I have of my grandfather and his mates they tend to hold their tropical helmets so as to show off the badges.

 

David this photo is from the NAM collection - there is a possibility that the prone figure behind the combination is my grandfather - my Father believes so - but I think that the NAM sent him the photo when he lodged my grandfather's report of his action with them - I think the case is unproven! From recollection the NAM state it could be either 19 or 22 Bty.

Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
9 hours ago, JPJamie said:

PJWMACRO:

I went WOW as well! 

 

My name is James P. Jamieson

I was named after my grandfather, James Petrie Jamieson

 

I am sure, he was in Section 1 as in the picture below.

He is front row right with the watch on his left wrist.,,,

Grandfather_Group_650x496.png.0be880b3111b53c3d11c048285dc85d8.png

 

First off I have many images my grandfather pasted into his album. 

I'm not sure, but wonder if they were issued albums of the same kind. 

 

All images (of course) are black and white and small. 

He wrote names under some of the men in the photographs. 

My grandfather was a bit of a "calligrapher" and as a result some of his writing is hard to decipher, but I can make out most.  I have group images and one is of Section #2 Football Team.  I will upload a picture this team as it shows all the men.  Don't understand the section thing and also since I'm not a military man, don't understand much of the organization terminology and the numbers of men in each section etc. 

 

I do digital photography and videography as a part of my job.  

Also work a lot with Adobe Photoshop 5.5.2 and can size, cleanup etc. images.  

Will scan some images from his album and upload them here, especially if requested.

 

My grandfather didn't put many first names under the photographs, but I'm sure last names will help...

Lawrie

Kilgour

Ralph Weston

Fielder

Laws

Dowie (labeled as a banker...probably later in life)

Tommy Stewart

J. Thomson

Telfer

Ross (labeled as a banker)

Ward

J. Rodger

Parker

Alan Gilmour (may have been injured as picture is of him in a hospital bed)

Girdwood

Louclen

Patrick

Collins

Sutcliffe

Duncan. 

 

The images below may have been shared with your grandfather and you may also have them as they are larger. 

My grandfather is in the lower image, second row, center seated with pipe in his mouth. 

 

Section2_Football_Team_800x523.png.548ebdf5881120f7067db376d56ea89e.png

 

Kuldana_Group_800x544.png.ff8301a66efca1c53d6fda36941a9a2a.png

 

James - these are great photos. I haven't seen them before. Cannot see my grandfather in them, but he was No 3 section.

Messaged you in more detail and will email.

Regards

Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
david murdoch
17 hours ago, Maureene said:

Great photos. I wonder if you all would consider sending a copy of your photos to FIBIS for inclusion in the FIBIS Gallery https://gallery.fibis.org

Should you be willing to do this, could you please contact the Website  Manager, email address within this link https://www.fibis.org/contact/

 

 Photograph: Edwin Cross and comrades, Machine Gun Corps with machine gun and also showing tropical helmets with flash. Edwin Cross appears to have been in 283 Machine Gun Company. Is the flash/badge shown in the Edwin Cross photo the same as the flash/badge in your grandfather's photos?

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

Maureen. The badge in my grandfather's photos is this one . L.A.M.B brigade (Mesopotamia) They were MGC (Motors)

DSC00011.JPG

DSC00016.JPG

Edited by david murdoch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie

"James - if you can provide photos of any the above that would be a massive step forward.

Regards, Paul"

 

ABSOLUTELY!

First off thanks very much for the above by you both: David Murdoch and Paul (pjwmacro).

This is a fun puzzle we can put together.

 

I noticed Lueclen was searched as Lueden, so will verify the name at my end.

 

I will scan in images of those men my grandfather labeled with names, edit them a bit in Photoshop (crop, size, clean up etc.).  

 

I'm assuming you both realize, my grandfather entered "labeled as banker" below the photographs.  It was not officially entered, but it might help.

I have picture of Alan Gilmour in a hospital bed, surrounded by three others and will upload this coming weekend. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by pjwmacro  

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 

 

I'm assuming you both realize, my grandfather entered "labeled as banker" below the photographs.  It was not officially entered, but it might help.

I have picture of Alan Gilmour in a hospital bed, surrounded by three others and will upload this coming weekend. 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by pjwmacro  

 

James good evening. I am afraid I have no idea if there is any significance to the statement "labeled as banker". Is that actually what your grandfather has written - or has he just labelled the photo "banker"?  My only suggestion is they might have run a cards/gambling syndicate - and Ross was the banker? I really am guessing!

Have email separately. Do you know grandfathers date and place of birth?

Regards, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
On 09/05/2017 at 23:02, Maureene said:

Great photos. I wonder if you all would consider sending a copy of your photos to FIBIS for inclusion in the FIBIS Gallery https://gallery.fibis.org

Should you be willing to do this, could you please contact the Website  Manager, email address within this link https://www.fibis.org/contact/

 

 Photograph: Edwin Cross and comrades, Machine Gun Corps with machine gun and also showing tropical helmets with flash. Edwin Cross appears to have been in 283 Machine Gun Company. Is the flash/badge shown in the Edwin Cross photo the same as the flash/badge in your grandfather's photos?

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

Maureen I have visited the FIBIS  site but I am no wiser. What is the purpose of the site? And I cannot find the contact link you refer to?

Regards, Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maureene
15 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Maureen. The badge in my grandfather's photos is this one . L.A.M.B brigade (Mesopotamia) They were MGC (Motors)

DSC00011.JPG

DSC00016.JPG

Thanks for posting David. I haven't seen that one before.

 

The following link is about sun helmets

"British Puggarees 2, 3, 4 and 6 Folds" by Stuart Bates. MilitarySunHelmets.com

 

 

7 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Maureen I have visited the FIBIS  site but I am no wiser. What is the purpose of the site? And I cannot find the contact link you refer to?

Regards, Paul

FIBIS stands for  Families in British India Society which is a family history society. It is a registered charity in the UK and run almost entirely by volunteers.

The Home page is https://www.fibis.org which says

Whether you are a genealogist, family historian or social historian researching India or South Asia between 1600 and 1947 our website can help you with your research…The Families In British India Society (FIBIS) is a self-help organisation devoted to members researching their British India family history and the background against which their ancestors led their lives in India under British rule.

 

From the tab at the top of the Home page Research your Ancestors, the drop down menu shows categories including Search Database https://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/;  Gallery https://gallery.fibis.org;  and Wiki also known as Fibiwiki

The Gallery consists of photographs relating to the British in India, copies of which various people have kindly provided to FiBIS, for the general information of those researching this period.

 

I am a FIBIS member, and I do research for  Fibiwki which is  an encyclopaedia about life in British India organized on the same basis as Wikipedia.  The Main Page for Fibiwiki is https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Main_Page

There is a Search facility or links to a sample of Fibiwiki pages follow, noting the British Army was an important presence in British India

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/British_Army

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Machine_Gun_Corps

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Royal_Tank_Corps

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/North_West_Frontier_Campaigns

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/First_World_War

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Rawalpindi

 

If you cannot access the Contact page link I previously posted, there is a link towards the bottom of the FIBIS Home Page https://www.fibis.org Contact Us, then scroll down to Website and Social Media Manager Valmay Young

 

Cheers

Maureen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie

Here are some images from my grandfather's (James Petrie Jamieson) photography album I scanned in today.  I just did some minor tweaking of the images and sized them so they are all 700 -702 pixels wide, but the (HTML/external Cascading Style Sheet) code on the page, must be overriding to enforce image sizing.  There are many more images to come, but didn't want to "pig out" here with too many submissions in one posting.  I don't know if these photographs were taken by my grandfather or if they were provided to all the men.  I have the same picture of Maj. Molony as Paul Macro.   Just added for a group image of Number 3 Section at the bottom especially for Paul Macro.

More next weekend...

 

Botteril_702x1138.png.4bdcf2902e1fdc6de1b2e76c00431472.pngDowie_702x583.png.31215d9a6ac3dd0da3aecef64580e798.pngFielder_702x555.png.352413aa992cd3a4823229cd28d9bcea.pngG_Laws_700x1068.png.8be61c83fed3bb6f6666b1f11be6a5a4.pngJJamieson_Gunner_700x601.png.607236cf47dbe6e4ed8fdcd41ba77ae3.pngLafferty_Ross_702x574.png.ec10bf056888645de0d0ba17abba2570.png591738d5f02c3_LawrieKilmour_702x655.png.3d42ac1bec3ba026682d0b9ceffb15f6.pngRalph_Weston_702x1101.png.c706fc6ae7d4117da7ebd5194b2e11c6.pngTommy_Stewart_702x634.png.0dbd3a8ebed9274d4da30a9a888fc282.pngNumber3_Section_702x504.png.e9917d453e4400f4df01c0b195969aaa.png

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear JP,

Good work. well done!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie

Here are a few more images. 

My grandfather noted Corporal Sutcliffe had a famous brother, but failed to enter his name. I checked on Google (Wikipedia) and entered Herbert Sutcliffe.                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                        

                                  Sutcliffe_702x730.png.34a90c3a3c9cd0f8ecc225f32ffc53c5.png

 

Duncan_702x856.png.c7329f987eb394af9f77827994bc08aa.png

 

Collins_702x1066.png.942c8b350d05f7a964de62fd5289f8a0.png

 

Dowie_702x925.png.0be218624470f0fbc9250daf48326a24.png

 

Keddie_702x889.png.d7ee393ffe03b37a6437f8eb38981369.png

Edited by JPJamie
Editing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro

James these are really great. I have sent the 3 Section group to my parents for my Father to look at - there is (I think) one possibility in there which might be my Grandfather but I don't really think so. My Father will know.

Interesting that Duncan was Army Service Corps -  ASC. I know a number of ASC chaps were attached to the battery - mainly as drivers for the trucks (in Heavy Branch many of the First Tank drivers were ASC and attached to MGC) but the only one I have come across for 22 Bty previously is Pte  Harry Albert (?) Cutler. He is unusual in that his service record still exists ( one of the burnt records) and suggests that he too shipped to India from Devonport 26 Feb 16 on the Beltana.

Regards Paul 

Edited by pjwmacro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro
On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 18:45, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear JP,

Good work. well done!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Hi Kim. Do you have a particular 22 Bty link or is this general interest?  Regards Paul 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Paul,

Just general interest coupled with a bit of praise.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro

Thanks Kim. Your James Dyer group noted. Very nice. Regards.Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie
19 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

James these are really great. I have sent the 3 Section group to my parents for my Father to look at - there is (I think) one possibility in there which might be my Grandfather but I don't really think so. My Father will know.

Interesting that Duncan was Army Service Corps -  ASC. I know a number of ASC chaps were attached to the battery - mainly as drivers for the trucks (in Heavy Branch many of the First Tank drivers were ASC and attached to MGC) but the only one I have come across for 22 Bty previously is Pre Harry Albert (?) Cutler. He is unusual in that his service record still exists ( one of the burnt records) and suggests that he too shipped to India from Devonport 26 Feb 16 on the Beltana.

Regards Paul 

 

Glad to help and this is fascinating stuff.  Didn't know what ASC meant, now I do...thanks!  You know so much more about the military.  Wish I had more time for it.  

 

So did the Scottish men also leave on the Beltana? 

 

I'm curious if the men all got the same photo albums.  Mine is dark green with ALBUM embossed in gold.  All of the pages are light cardboard with two holes which fit into two pins in the spine of the album. Also wondering if there was a assigned photographer as some of the photographs are well composed, especially group photos.  I also have a picture of my grandfather sitting at the Taj Mahal in 1917.  For years my brother and I wondered if the background was faked by an Indian street photographer.  There's absolutely nobody behind him at the Taj.  I don't want to get off topic, so will close for now.  .   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro

James

Shipping on the Beltana. The record only gives the officers names of those shipping - travelling first class! - all listed as for duty with 22 Bty MMGS. The record also shows 67 NCO's and soldiers shipping at the same time (2nd and 3rd class!) (but without naming them)  with the motorcycles combinations and trucks. In other words the majority of the battery. So it's a reasonable assumption that this would have included the men from Scotland. Individual reinforcements and battle casualty replacements may have been shipped subsequently individually. Having enlisted the men would have done their initial training as machine gunners at a central UK location - probably Bisley, Surrey before being shipped to join their battery.

Albums. I don,'t think the albums were issued. My grandfathers is a bound volume, about 30 light card pages, with a biege cardboard like cover - I don't think anything is embossed or written on the cover but i' ll have to check. I don't think there were official or assigned photographers but I could be wrong.

Regards Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie

Paul (pjwmacro) great making contact with you also on Facebook.  I also seem to have and "issue" friending you, but we will eventually get that sorted out.  So the officers got to travel first class...not surprised.  I would like to find out the name of the ship they were on for the return trip.  The Suez Canal was finished in 1869, so they probably went through that, but the route might not have been considered safe.  From Wikipedia: "The Raid on the Suez Canal, also known as Actions on the Suez Canal, took place between 26 January and 4 February 1915 after a German-led Ottoman Army force advanced from Southern Palestine to attack the British Empire-protected Suez Canal, before the beginning of the Sinai and Palestine Campaign of World War I."  So I just checked your previous posting and the Beltana left on the 26th of February, but it doesn't state the year.  If they sailed through the Suez Canal in February 1915 they would have avoided the above conflict, however that probably was early as they most likely left in February 26th of 2016.  More than 100 years ago.  Been busy this weekend with work, many more images to add soon.

 

I just realized my grandfather and grandmother more than likely both sailed the Suez.  He sailed before she left for Australia in the early 1920's, so he probably had some advice before she left.  It's one of those things I'd love to talk to them about... 

    

 

Cheers!

 

JJ    .

Edited by JPJamie
Editing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
pjwmacro

James

Beltana sailed from Devonport with 22 Bty MMGS on 26th Feb 1916. Whether she went through Suez or not I don't know - I had always assumed so as UK shipping routinely went to Malta, Dardenelles, Alexandia, Salonika et al through the war - but maybe a naval expert on here could comment. My grandfather's album has picture's of Suez  and Port Said but they could be from later when he came back to Egypt for pilot training. 

 

My grandfathers album suggests he came back from india on the HMT Huntsgreen (captured german merchant ship reroled) but I haven't found any shipping records for this - I have no idea whether the battery disbanded and shipped back enmasse or whether they came back in small groups as their demob time came round.

 

You said by email you thought your grandfather had come back to UK before 3rd Afghan War. David Murdoch ( on this thread) would agree in that he cannot find your grandfather on the medal role for the IGSM or for the NWF bar. Yet thbat seams a little strange when the authorities were trying to keep troops in theatre for the Afghan conflict - and David reckons your grandfather's demob date was Jan 1920 -  which is very similar to my grandfathers and gave him time to be in India for 3rd Afghan War.

 

Your grandmother sounds quite a girl!

 

All the best, Paul

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mcassell

Find attached a postcard from Major Molony ( then of F Battery) to his wife and a scan of a page from The Motorcycle showing 22 Battery NCOs.  There are a couple of other mentions of 22 Battery in The Motorcycle, one referring to a battery magazine "The Momagu", which I have never seen. Photograph albums for the various motor machine gun and armoured car batteriesin India are rather common - I have 2 albums for 19 MMG, one for 15 MMG, 2 for HQ AMB and one for 4 AMB, and have seen others for 3 MMG, 15 AMB and 11 AMB.  Nice to know that two albums of 22 MMG have survived. Nice to see the picture of Gunner Laws, whose medals I have.  mc 

MOLONYFBTTY2LORES.jpg

MOLONYFBTTYLORES.jpg

MMGWARD.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie
On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 17:15, pjwmacro said:

James

Beltana sailed from Devonport with 22 Bty MMGS on 26th Feb 1916. Whether she went through Suez or not I don't know - I had always assumed so as UK shipping routinely went to Malta, Dardenelles, Alexandia, Salonika et al through the war - but maybe a naval expert on here could comment. My grandfather's album has picture's of Suez  and Port Said but they could be from later when he came back to Egypt for pilot training. 

 

My grandfathers album suggests he came back from india on the HMT Huntsgreen (captured german merchant ship reroled) but I haven't found any shipping records for this - I have no idea whether the battery disbanded and shipped back enmasse or whether they came back in small groups as their demob time came round.

 

You said by email you thought your grandfather had come back to UK before 3rd Afghan War. David Murdoch ( on this thread) would agree in that he cannot find your grandfather on the medal role for the IGSM or for the NWF bar. Yet thbat seams a little strange when the authorities were trying to keep troops in theatre for the Afghan conflict - and David reckons your grandfather's demob date was Jan 1920 -  which is very similar to my grandfathers and gave him time to be in India for 3rd Afghan War.

 

Your grandmother sounds quite a girl!

 

All the best, Paul

 

 

 

Paul:

With regard to my grandmother, I have more to tell.  I thank my cousin Iain English for researching much more on my grandmother Jessie Jamieson.  Before she married my grand father, she was engaged to Robert Dawson, who died from wounds he received during the third battle of Ypres, Flanders on 27th October 1917.  My grandmother lived at 173 Low Waters Road, Hamilton, Scotland.  The link left gives an approximate location, but the Dawson's most likely lived in that row of old buildings.  Dawson was 1 year her junior.  Dawson was the adopted son of John and Margaret Dawson who lived in nearby 'Fyfedale,' Scott Street, Hamilton.  

 

My grandmother wore a locket around her neck with a picture of my grandfather James Petrie Jamieson. 

It was discovered (probably after her death) that behind the picture of my grandfather, was a picture of Robert Dawson.... 

 

 

Robert_Dawson_454x586.png

 

Iain English visited Dawson's grave in Etaples War Cemetery in Northern France.2015.  Private Dawson was wounded in the Candle Trench, north of Poelcapelle, Belgium and was to die from his wounds in France on 27th October 1917, aged 22 years.  His duty location was 'France and Flanders' and he served within the 10th Battalion of the Lincolnshire Regiment as part of the 101st Brigade, 34th Division, 5th Army.

 I have access to much more information on Private Dawson and will provide on request.

Information also provided by Karen Derycke of the Archives Department, Passchendaele Museum, Zonnebeke.

 

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie
On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 12:45, mcassell said:

Find attached a postcard from Major Molony ( then of F Battery) to his wife and a scan of a page from The Motorcycle showing 22 Battery NCOs.  There are a couple of other mentions of 22 Battery in The Motorcycle, one referring to a battery magazine "The Momagu", which I have never seen. Photograph albums for the various motor machine gun and armoured car batteriesin India are rather common - I have 2 albums for 19 MMG, one for 15 MMG, 2 for HQ AMB and one for 4 AMB, and have seen others for 3 MMG, 15 AMB and 11 AMB.  Nice to know that two albums of 22 MMG have survived. Nice to see the picture of Gunner Laws, whose medals I have.  mc 

MOLONYFBTTY2LORES.jpg

MOLONYFBTTYLORES.jpg

MMGWARD.jpg

 

This might be a long shot, but here is a picture from my grand father's album showing a Sergeant Ward with another man named J. Rodger.

Here is a link to page 6 showing T. Stewart on a motorcycle in the same place as the image below...

 

Ward_Rodger_802x544.png.c66642a44414d4462782673dc68eabad.png

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mcassell
14 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

This might be a long shot, but here is a picture from my grand father's album showing a Sergeant Ward with another man named J. Rodger...

 

Ward_Rodger_802x544.png.c66642a44414d4462782673dc68eabad.png

 

Marvellous picture - and nice to confirm that BSMs of MGC(Motors) MMG Batteries had crossed rifles over stripes. Would it be possible via pm to get jpegs of this picture and that of Gunner Laws (whose medals I have)?  You wouldn't by chance have a picture of Lieutenant Rosher/Roescher who commanded the Battery after Molony.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie
2 minutes ago, mcassell said:

 

Marvellous picture - and nice to confirm that BSMs of MGC(Motors) MMG Batteries had crossed rifles over stripes. Would it be possible via pm to get jpegs of this picture and that of Gunner Laws (whose medals I have)?  You wouldn't by chance have a picture of Lieutenant Rosher/Roescher who commanded the Battery after Molony.

 

Just checked in and yes, I will PM you with copies.  I can also "zoom" in to the crossed rifles over stripes if you want on a separate image.  Working right now and cannot spare the time, but will get back to you!  Glad to help in this regard to anyone here.  Would you know if this is a Norton motorcycle?  Zooming in on the logo doesn't help.

 

Cheers...

 

JJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie

Number 1 Section MMGS in India 1917.

The side cars appear to be convertible, in that they can hold the Vickers or a passenger or both? 

Would like to have access to more technical details on these motorcycle/sidecar configurations. 

 

 

No1_Section_MMGS_1917_852x728.png.27dc329be8bb5e9e2d368ac3a28324a3.png

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JPJamie

Alan Gilmour in hospital bed, James Petrie Jamieson sitting in center with pipe left hand (he continued to smoke pipes later in life).  

One other patient can be seen in bed behind Gilmour...

 

Alan_Gilmour_850x605.png.3715209cc148460c4da077f083851f60.png

 

James Petrie Jamieson second from left. 

Notice the motorcycle is 28MAC58 and another pictured with Lafferty and Ross is 28MAC62.  

These license numbers may help identify the location and section.

 

A_Happy_Lot_854x699.png.707e8dd821b861e87d579932af75453f.png

 

 

 

Edited by JPJamie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...