22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[pjwmacro]

22 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Hi Paul,

 

I have surprisingly little information on my Great Grandfather, however he wasn't from Scotland, most likely being born in West Bromwich, where he lived after the War before moving to the Wirral. Despite the lack of paper information, I plan on speaking to other family members about him fairly soon, although my closest link (Walter Patrick's son, my Great Uncle) passed away just over a month ago, which is how I came into possession of the photographs. 

I'll attempt to upload the more relevant photos sometime this week.

I do have Photoshop, so I'll see what I can do to the faded photos. There are some excellent shots, however they're either too small, or have some marking on the image that detracts from the quality. 

I think for now, I'll just scan them in groups to give you an idea of those I have, and determine any duplicates. I'll try to annotate with the exact words Walter Patrick wrote on them. 

Thanks. 

 

Hi Abowell. If I have found the right Walter Patrick then he was born Apr, May or Jun 18t94, in Tipton, Staffs. 2nd Son of William (a stone mason) and Sarah. The 1901 Census has them living at 27 Bratt St, West Bromwich. 1911 Census has Walter as 'finisher to bookbinding".  Is this your Great Grandfather?  West Bromwich would fit with recruitment to MMGS through Birmingham office of "Motorcycle" magazine - and as David has said, his low number indicates he was an early (1915) recruit.

Regards,Paul

[abowell97]

9 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Do you have any idea which section if the Battery your Great Grandfather was in?  NW7 should be NWF - North West Frontier.

 Thanks Paul, I couldn't make out his handwriting, but glad that's clarified, makes a lot more sense now.

Going by his photos, he was in the No.1 section of the Battery. I have a few group photos and pictures of others in his section that I'll upload soon.

 

1 hour ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Hi Abowell. If I have found the right Walter Patrick then he was born Apr, May or Jun 18t94, in Tipton, Staffs. 2nd Son of William (a stone mason) and Sarah. The 1901 Census has them living at 27 Bratt St, West Bromwich. 1911 Census has Walter as 'finisher to bookbinding".  Is this your Great Grandfather?  West Bromwich would fit with recruitment to MMGS through Birmingham office of "Motorcycle" magazine - and as David has said, his low number indicates he was an early (1915) recruit.

Regards,Paul

 

Yep, that's definitely him! He was a book-binder for over 50 years, as his retirement notice in the paper is one of the only documents I have about him. That, and a huge amount of old books in my Great Uncles house, some dating back to the 1880s.

Thanks very much for that! 

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

 Thanks Paul, I couldn't make out his handwriting, but glad that's clarified, makes a lot more sense now.

Going by his photos, he was in the No.1 section of the Battery. I have a few group photos and pictures of others in his section that I'll upload soon.

 

 

As you`ll have gathered from earlier posts - James's grandfather, James Petrie Jamieson was also No1 Section (my grandfather was No 3 Section).  It`s begining to look as if No1 section was the "hothouse" of battery photography talent and interest! On a more serious note - I have a number of photos of the battery war diary (held at TNA - Kew) covering the 3rd Afghan War, which mention No1 section and a little of what they got up to at this time.  Although, if as David says, your Great Grandfather didn't get the India General Service Medal (IGSM) with bar NWF 1919, then it looks likely he will have left the battery before the 3rd Afghan War. Do you have your great grandfather's medal(s) in the family?  Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

On this photo we have:- Left to right.

Sgt. Burke 19th MMG I don't have anything on him yet - he is not among the 19th Battery personnel with MMGS number on the GSM roll (Again he may be ASC). He looks a bit older than the others.

Acting Cpl. Walter Patrick 1621 (West Bromwich)

Acting Sgt. Percy Butt 903 (Birmingham)

Sgt Alfred James Fielder M2/100503 Army Service Corps (London)

Acting Sgt Philip Bolger 2398 (Bootle)

 

Edited 19 June , 2017 by david murdoch
added home towns.

[abowell97]

On 2017-6-19 at 12:05, pjwmacro said:

Do you have your great grandfather's medal(s) in the family?  

 I doubt it, I'm afraid. I may have the chance to look through some of my Great Uncles possessions over the next few weeks so I'll have a thorough search for anything relevant to his Father's time in the military.

Edited 21 June , 2017 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 I doubt it, I'm afraid. I'll be going through some of my Great Uncles possessions over the next few weeks so I'll have a thorough search for anything relevant to his Father's time in the military.

 

First thing to do is to put a search on ebay with MGC(M) and MMGS medals on it - and Walter Patrick included, ideally with his service number - you never know when it may come up trumps! There are a couple of FB groups which specialise in re-uniting medals with families - worth registering. And there area couple of medal collectors I can ask. Paul

[abowell97]

On 2017-6-19 at 22:46, pjwmacro said:

 

First thing to do is to put a search on ebay with MGC(M) and MMGS medals on it - and Walter Patrick included, ideally with his service number - you never know when it may come up trumps!

Thanks, it was worth checking but there wasn't anything, but I'll inquire with family members to see if they know anything more than I do about his possible medal whereabouts. 

 

Next few photos, I hope these aren't duplicates of one's already on here!

"I shall be sending a number of photos during the next month or two, + I want you to take care that they don't get spoilt as I want to keep them. - Walter.

No.1 section, 22nd Bty, M.M.G.S."

Apologies for not reducing the size much, but it is difficult to make out faces on that one. The original was extremely overexposed, and it seems I've reached the editing limit before it starts to look worse than it did originally. Walter Patrick on the back row, second from the left, I'm unaware of others in the picture. 

 

"WPatrick"

Walter Patrick, bottom row on the right. 

 

No caption (so I couldn't be sure if it was the 22nd Bty), and I'm not aware of anyone on the image, but it did seem like a decent photo. 

Hope these help.

[david murdoch]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

 

No caption (so I couldn't be sure if it was the 22nd Bty), and I'm not aware of anyone on the image, but it did seem like a decent photo. 

Hope these help.

Found on another Forum thread regarding the West Yorkshire regiment. "The 1st Battalion returned to England in 1911 from India where they had served from 1899. From 1907-10 they were stationed at Kuldana, in the Murree Hills". They left this carved rock behind - just Googled it!

http://www.geocities.ws/scn_pk/westyorkshire.html Presuming the Battery were based in the same barracks when they were up there, and this was close by.

Edited 21 June , 2017 by david murdoch

[JPJamie]

6 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Thanks, it was worth checking but there wasn't anything, but I'll inquire with family members to see if they know anything more than I do about his possible medal whereabouts. 

 

Next few photos, I hope these aren't duplicates of one's already on here!

"I shall be sending a number of photos during the next month or two, + I want you to take care that they don't get spoilt as I want to keep them. - Walter.

No.1 section, 22nd Bty, M.M.G.S."

Apologies for not reducing the size much, but it is difficult to make out faces on that one. The original was extremely overexposed, and it seems I've reached the editing limit before it starts to look worse than it did originally. Walter Patrick on the back row, second from the left, I'm unaware of others in the picture. 

 

"WPatrick"

Walter Patrick, bottom row on the right. 

 

No caption (so I couldn't be sure if it was the 22nd Bty), and I'm not aware of anyone on the image, but it did seem like a decent photo. 

Hope these help.

 

abowell97 (Alex?)

No duplicates from my album so far!

Don't be concerned about the size of the images.  I just try to keep them about 850 pixels wide, but you can probably even go a wee bit more than that.

I can confirm the man in the front row on the right (next to the machine gun) in the large image at top is acting corporal and gunner James Petrie Jamieson. 

Are those ammunition belts?  Are they carrying side arms (pistols)?

Thank you so much for this image!  I've never seen this one before!  Well done! 

Edited 21 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Found on another Forum thread regarding the West Yorkshire regiment. "The 1st Battalion returned to England in 1911 from India where they had served from 1899. From 1907-10 they were stationed at Kuldana, in the Murree Hills". They left this carved rock behind - just Googled it!

http://www.geocities.ws/scn_pk/westyorkshire.html Presuming the Battery were based in the same barracks when they were up there, and this was close by.

 

Let's hope this stone isn't removed and placed in a basement museum along with the bronze statue of Queen Victoria. Until 1951 a marble pavilion at Charing Cross displayed a bronze statue of Queen Victoria, but now in the statue's place something else resides.  My photo album has a picture with her statue still inside the pavilion. 

Edited 21 June , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

Looking at the latest photos - I'm almost certain now they were using the original MMGS shoulder patches as puggaree badges. They show up in a few of the previous photos, but not too distinct due to the monochrome, however the shape is quite distinct. On the latest 1st Section photo there are two quite visible as they are turned deliberately to face the camera. However behind them is another puggaree with a different dark rectangular badge. In some of Paul's photos there is a third type.

[abowell97]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 

abowell97 (Alex?)

No duplicates from my album so far!

Don't be concerned about the size of the images.  I just try to keep them about 850 pixels wide, but you can probably even go a wee bit more than that.

I can confirm the man in the front row on the right (next to the machine gun) in the large image at top is acting corporal and gunner James Petrie Jamieson. 

Are those ammunition belts?  Are they carrying side arms (pistols)?

Thank you so much for this image!  I've never seen this one before!  Well done! 

 

Ah, great! Glad these are helpful.

 

I do have one of A/Cpl. Jamieson, however it's a copy of one already posted on here. I do have the higher resolution copies of these if you want any at a higher quality. 

For that image, it does appear that they're carrying holstered revolvers. 

 

Thanks,

Alex 

 

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

Ah, great! Glad these are helpful.

 

I do have one of A/Cpl. Jamieson, however it's a copy of one already posted on here. I do have the higher resolution copies of these if you want any at a higher quality. 

For that image, it does appear that they're carrying holstered revolvers. 

 

Thanks,

Alex 

 

The No1 gunners and loaders would have revolvers (usually) a Webley Mk VI .455 as a side arm. The ammo carriers and solo motorcyclists would have rifles  - hence the bandoleers.

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

You are to be commended for bringing your respective grandfathers of 22nd Bty MMG 'back to life', as it were.

As an aside, I have the medals of a former Bombardier of 25th Bty MMG: Henry Reginald Corbett. He was born in Calcutta and was a humble Railway Guard.

The Bty was raised in Calcutta in Nov 1916.

Sent out to the Egyptian Expeditionary Force, the unit was battle-tested by umpires in the Cairo area - and found wanting. It was decided to disband.

Unusually, after disbandment, the members were given the option of going back to Calcutta (!), or fighting on.

The more stout-hearted elected, for example, to train in the area as pilots with the RFC. Corbett, however, was sent on a course at Zeitoun, near Cairo, and commissioned into the Indian Army Reserve of Officers in Dec 1917. He is shown turning his head. By that time he was already commissioned (subsequently A/Capt 2/69 Punjabis)...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[JPJamie]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

The No1 gunners and loaders would have revolvers (usually) a Webley Mk VI .455 as a side arm. The ammo carriers and solo motorcyclists would have rifles  - hence the bandoleers.

 

David:

Thank you for the information on the Webley Mk VI .455 side arm.  My grandfather never mentioned firearms and I never imagined him carrying one until I saw the picture above.  I immediately checked out the pistol on YouTube.    

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

David:

Thank you for the information on the Webley Mk VI .455 side arm.  My grandfather never mentioned firearms and I never imagined him carrying one until I saw the picture above.  I immediately checked out the pistol on YouTube.    

One of my grandfather's stories - apparently coming back on leave from Bisley to Glasgow he was met by my grandmother (his then girlfriend) at Central Station. He was a tall guy  - over six foot, and with his "unusual" uniform with peaked cap, leather gaiters and his pistol quite a few soldiers assumed he was an officer and saluted him as they came out the station which amused him greatly and impressed his girl.

[JPJamie]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

One of my grandfather's stories - apparently coming back on leave from Bisley to Glasgow he was met by my grandmother (his then girlfriend) at Central Station. He was a tall guy  - over six foot, and with his "unusual" uniform with peaked cap, leather gaiters and his pistol quite a few soldiers assumed he was an officer and saluted him as they came out the station which amused him greatly and impressed his girl.

 

David that's a good one.  I've got a story of my grandfather, my grandmother's trip to Australia and a man named Robert Dawson who died of wounds in Candle Trench Flanders.   Someday I hope to find the time to write about those days.  Everything I learn here adds another piece no matter how small to that story.     

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

One of my grandfather's stories - apparently coming back on leave from Bisley to Glasgow he was met by my grandmother (his then girlfriend) at Central Station. He was a tall guy  - over six foot, and with his "unusual" uniform with peaked cap, leather gaiters and his pistol quite a few soldiers assumed he was an officer and saluted him as they came out the station which amused him greatly and impressed his girl.

 

Great story David.

[pjwmacro]

3 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

David:

Thank you for the information on the Webley Mk VI .455 side arm.  My grandfather never mentioned firearms and I never imagined him carrying one until I saw the picture above.  I immediately checked out the pistol on YouTube.    

 

Beast of a weapon - but considerably less trouble to carry than the rifle!

[pjwmacro]

4 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Dear All,

You are to be commended for bringing your respective grandfathers of 22nd Bty MMG 'back to life', as it were.

As an aside, I have the medals of a former Bombardier of 25th Bty MMG: Henry Reginald Corbett. He was born in Calcutta and was a humble Railway Guard.

The Bty was raised in Calcutta in Nov 1916.

Sent out to the Egyptian Expeditionary Force, the unit was battle-tested by umpires in the Cairo area - and found wanting. It was decided to disband.

Unusually, after disbandment, the members were given the option of going back to Calcutta (!), or fighting on.

The more stout-hearted elected, for example, to train in the area as pilots with the RFC. Corbett, however, was sent on a ar Cairo, and commissioned into the Indian Army Reserve of Officers in Dec 1917. He is shown turning his head. By that time he was already commissioned (subsequently A/Capt 2/69 Punjabis)...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Kim thanks for the info on Corbett. My grandfather also underwent pilot training in Egypt but a bit later in 1919. He was then returned to India ( and 22 MMG) for the 3rd Afghan War. Best Paul

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Looking at the latest photos - I'm almost certain now they were using the original MMGS shoulder patches as puggaree badges. They show up in a few of the previous photos, but not too distinct due to the monochrome, however the shape is quite distinct. On the latest 1st Section photo there are two quite visible as they are turned deliberately to face the camera. However behind them is another puggaree with a different dark rectangular badge. In some of Paul's photos there is a third type.

 

David

Agree with you reference using the old MMG shoulder patch on the helmet. However, note that I cannot be certain the bottom left photo is of 22 Bty. It is a NAM photo which my father obtained when he lodged his fathers report of the Badama post action with them. We think the prone figure behind the combination is my grandfather - but we cannot be sure and cannot prove that.

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, abowell97 said:

 

Ah, great! Glad these are helpful.

 

I do have one of A/Cpl. Jamieson, however it's a copy of one already posted on here. I do have the higher resolution copies of these if you want any at a higher quality. 

For that image, it does appear that they're carrying holstered revolvers. 

 

Thanks,

Alex 

 

 

Alex - great photos - thanks for posting.

Best, Paul

[pjwmacro]

13 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Thanks, it was worth checking but there wasn't anything, but I'll inquire with family members to see if they know anything more than I do about his possible medal whereabouts. 

 

Next few photos, I hope these aren't duplicates of one's already on here!

"I shall be sending a number of photos during the next month or two, + I want you to take care that they don't get spoilt as I want to keep them. - Walter.

No.1 section, 22nd Bty, M.M.G.S."

Apologies for not reducing the size much, but it is difficult to make out faces on that one. The original was extremely overexposed, and it seems I've reached the editing limit before it starts to look worse than it did originally. Walter Patrick on the back row, second from the left, I'm unaware of others in the picture. 

 

"WPatrick"

Walter Patrick, bottom row on the right. 

 

No caption (so I couldn't be sure if it was the 22nd Bty), and I'm not aware of anyone on the image, but it did seem like a decent photo. 

Hope these help.

 

Alex. Top photo is great.  17 showing so should be No 1 section complete. I wonder if the young officer is included - perhaps in the middle of the seated row but I cannot make out any rank details . Also wonder if we could compare some of James's posted named individual photos and identify other faces in the photo? Does the labelling give any idea when it was taken? And Walter clearly sent it home - which is interesting in that James and I couldn't be certain if the photos were developed in India or back in UK.

Bottom photo is definitely MMG - cap badges visible on side hats. And 22 Battery definitely were in Kuldana/ Muree - both James and I have photos labelled of there.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

The Action at Badama Post - 30/31 Jul 1919.

 

The Third Afghan War 1919 Official Account, which was complied in the General Staff Branch, Army Headquarters, India in 1926, includes a short description of this incident which took place in late July 1919.  This reads as follows:

"On the 30th of July, a report was received that a large body of Orakzais and Zaimukhts were collecting in the Khurmana Valley to raid the Kurram, and to attack the posts of Badama and Sadda.  Reinforcements of regular troops were sent to Sadda, whilst four aeroplanes flew over the Khurmana to locate the gathering.  On their way back, the last machine was shot down at short range by a party concealed on the hill side, and the pilot and observer were both wounded.  A race for the wrecked machine then took place between the tribesmen and the Militia from Badama.  The Militia just won, and the wounded airmen, who had roughly dismantled their machine, were brought in.  The engine was brought in intact the following morning by a party of Kurram Militia from Badama, assisted by a party of regular troops from Sadda."

 

My grandfather left a rather fuller account of the incident, which was lodged in the NAM by my father - NAM 2009-12-06. It reads as follows:

 

REPORT BY SGT MACRO

"On July 30th 1919 a report was received in Parachinar by Major Malony[sic], OC 22nd Battery, MMG, that large numbers of tribesmen were collecting in the Khurmana Valley for the purpose of attacking a convoy expected to pass along the Thal-Parachinar Rd.
On receipt of this message Major Malony detailed Sgt Macro to take No 3 Section, 22 Battery MMG and patrol the road from Parachinar to Sadda, and there to rendezvous with Major Dodd to exchange information.
The rendezvous effected in the late afternoon, and Major Dodd reported that the tribesmen appeared to be dispersing owing to the arrival of the MMG section.
This conference took place outside the walls of the post, and while it was in progress, an aeroplane was seen to zoom down into a valley beyond Badama Post.  As the plane did not reappear it was assumed it had been shot down and Major Dodd set off on horseback, accompanied by a few militiamen.  No 3 Sect. MMG prepared for action and also set off for the post, but as there was no road, had to pick their way along the hilltop, and so did not arrive at the post until some minutes after Major Dodd.  He reported that some of his militia were bringing in the two wounded airmen, and Sgt Macro ordered one of his Ford vans to be cleared ready to take the airmen to hospital.  The airmen, who were too badly injured even to help themselves, were given first aid, and dispatched to Kohut.
Sgt Macro, who had had RAF experience, realising that the wrecked plane would contain probably more than 1000 rounds of ammunition, possibly bombs and machine guns which would be of great value to the tribesmen, volunteered to go down to the wrecked plane, which was lying at the bottom of a dry river bed, to see what could be salvaged.  Major Dodd said he would accompany him, and, although he hadnt sufficient men to picket the hillside, would bring a few men with him to carry back anything salvaged.  Sgt Macro positioned his two machine guns so that they could give covering fire if necessary, placed the section under the command of Cpl Warburton, and climbed down the hillside to the wrecked plane.
The tribesmen, encouraged by their success, commenced to reassemble and the party was subjected to an increasing volume of sniping, but most of the party were able to lie under cover of the rocks and no one was hit.  The plane had crashed on its nose leaving the tail up in the air.  Sgt Macro climbed into the cockpit, released the bombs from the rack, and having examined them to see if they were safe to handle, sent them up to the post.  He then handed out the boxes and drums of ammunition, dismounted the Lewis gun, dismantled the Vickers, and passed them out to the militia to carry away.  The only part of the Vickers not salvaged was the barrel casing, which couldnt be got at because of the crashed engine.
It was now beginning to get dark, and the tribesmen, getting bolder, were closing in along the hillsides, so the party withdrew to Badama Post.  This was too small to hold the MMG Section, so this withdrew to Sadda, where Major Dodd also spent the night.
The following morning the section returned to Badama and found that, despite flares having been fired over the wreck at intervals during the night, the tribesmen had managed to carry away all but the planes engine.  The MMG Section gave covering fire, and a party of militiamen got to the plane, and managed to carry the engine to Badama Post.  The MMG Section returned to Sadda to await the return of scouts regarding the movements of the tribesmen.  That evening the scouts reported that the tribesmen were dispersing and returning to their villages, so the next day No 3 section MMG returned to Parachinar.
Sgt Macro reported to OC 22nd Battery MMG, Major Malony, on the success of the mission.  Major Malony complimented him on his handling of the situation, and said he had received an excellent report of his conduct from Major Dodd, and that he was being recommended for a DCM.  However, nothing was ever heard of this."

 

My grandfather didn't get a DCM but was MiD - I believe for this action. Accounts can be found in the war diaries of both the Kurram Militia and 22 MMG Bty (both in TNA) but neither are anywhere near as detailed as my grandfather's report. The authors of the official history clearly based their paragraph on the war diaries - some bits are almost word for word repeated.

[abowell97]

9 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Does the labelling give any idea when it was taken? And Walter clearly sent it home - which is interesting in that James and I couldn't be certain if the photos were developed in India or back in UK.

Afraid not, very few of my images have a date written on the back, only around 5-6 of the 249 pictures (with the majority being of various locations they visited).

 

I'm unsure where the photo was developed, and I do have one undeveloped photo in the collection, however it looks like an image of an Indian village, and not any individuals. 

Thanks to those who clarified the location on the third image, I didn't look into the engraved rock monument, but I do have quite a lot of photos labeled as Kuldana. 

As for those Webleys, I recall one or two of my images showing 'Revolver training', so I'll see If I can scan those in soon. 

Edited 22 June , 2017 by abowell97