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22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

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david murdoch
7 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

Just checked in and yes, I will PM you with copies.  I can also "zoom" in to the crossed rifles over stripes if you want on a separate image.  Working right now and cannot spare the time, but will get back to you!  Glad to help in this regard to anyone here.  Would you know if this is a Norton motorcycle?  Zooming in on the logo doesn't help.

 

Cheers...

 

JJ

JJ Pretty sure it's a Clyno logo - by the shape and position just forward of the gear shift. See the attached photo. In the photos from India looks to be several makes/models in use. In an MMG battery they had the machine gun sidecars, regular side cars for passengers, "cargo" type for ammunition/fuel ect and also solo motorbikes. The Vickers was usually mounted on it's standard tripod, so it could be removed quickly and used off the bike. Clynos were one of the most popular as they were robust and pre war used for hill climbing competitions so had a proven record. Clyno were already making a sidecar with frame that could be quickly detached from the bike and also by 1912 a "delivery van" sidecar frame, so easily turned over to war use with little modification.

Clyno.jpg

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pjwmacro

Jj and Mcassell

Data limited and away from comns til post weekend - so will.be brief. More great stuff here thank you both.

Mcassell curious as to source of your info 're Rosher/Roescher -  is it family? a photo would be great if one exists. How do you know  he took over from Molony?  Curious i could see no mention of Rosher in Jan 1919 Indian Army List. also this is first indication I have had that Molony married - I can find now indication of children - estate as dealt with by brother (Claude) post 1953 death. And Motor cycle magazine article is great - I think my grandfather's album includes photos of Attock - will check on return. lovely to see Sjt Fielder - JJ's trick cyclist! JJ -  I take it the photo posted is of Dawson( nor uout grandfather) ? 

.Regards

Paul

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JPJamie
16 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Jj and Mcassell

Data limited and away from comns til post weekend - so will.be brief. More great stuff here thank you both.

Mcassell curious as to source of your info 're Rosher/Roescher -  is it family? a photo would be great if one exists. How do you know  he took over from Molony?  Curious i could see no mention of Rosher in Jan 1919 Indian Army List. also this is first indication I have had that Molony married - I can find now indication of children - estate as dealt with by brother (Claude) post 1953 death. And Motor cycle magazine article is great - I think my grandfather's album includes photos of Attock - will check on return. lovely to see Sjt Fielder - JJ's trick cyclist! JJ -  I take it the photo posted is of Dawson( nor uout grandfather) ? 

.Regards

Paul

 

David Murdoch:  thanks for that great image of Clyno logo.  Now I can do more research with Google to get more images of those motorcycles.  This explains my grandfather's love of motorcycles, as he kept one in his backyard in Russell Street, Hamilton, Scotland. 

 

Paul:  the oval shaped picture (posted above) is of Robert Dawson, not my grandfather.  Dawson was engaged to my grandmother, but he was killed at the Battle of Ypres, France WWI.  This stuff takes looking at old pictures to another level.  Every time I scan in one of these small photos at 300 dpi, open it in Photoshop, adjust for color and sharpness, I see much more.  You get a feeling of going back in time...100 years.

 

Here is another group image at Kuldana 1916.  Unfortunately it's either backlit upper left, or a developing error, but I tried the best to fix that.  The shutter speed was probably under 1/60th as there is motion blur from the dog's head (you miss the dog in the smaller image) is moving.  One also wonders where they developed these images back then...something else to research...  

 

 

Kuldana_Group_852x584.png.4a26cd29397041dfd1f9d7dd49001186.png

 

Below is an image of Gunner Alexander Morrison Dowie 1618.  My grandfather wrote on the back: "Dowie in Civies (Copy from another Photo)." 

I cropped out messy edges on the original and cleaned it up.  I'm almost certain, Dowie is in the image above "Kuldana Group 1916." 

He is in the second row third from the right, holding the dog on his lap.

 

Dowie_Civies_495x677.png.9f174f0888bd4a66b203f5a5be5c25cc.png

Edited by JPJamie

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JPJamie
9 hours ago, Maureene said:

Kuldana was one of the cantonments at Murree, which was a "hill station" where the troops were posted during the summer months as it was much cooler. (Now Pakistan). The following images are from

Postcard: View Kuldana, Murree Hills

Postcard: Barracks, Kuldana (Murree Hills) c 1910

 

Cheers

Maureen

Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 3.40.53 pm.png

Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 3.45.36 pm.png

 

Thanks  for this!

I have images of "Redcap Corner," "Sunnybank," with tents exactly like the top postcard and labeled "Our Abode," by my grandfather while at Murree Hills.

Edited by JPJamie

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JPJamie

Kuldana Panorama 1916 - 17

 

Here are two images of Kuldana scanned from my grandfather's album.  He pasted two images side by side to make a "panorama" of Murree Hills, Kuldana. 

 

Scanning in both images as one does not work for two reasons. 

The entire panorama image is far too wide for the web page (which probably has an external cascading style sheet (CSS) dictating and controlling image sizing).  Second, if you elect to make the entire panorama image smaller, details are missed.  As a work around, I put the left side as the top image and right side as bottom image.  For those interested, I suggest you copy both images and "paste" (using an image editor like Photoshop) them both together using an image editor like Photoshop to make one image (height of both images exactly the same but width varies).  I tested this in Photoshop and it works.

 

The buildings in the right side photograph probably still exist to this day.  You can also see a faint outline of mountains in the background.

 

Left side...

 

Kuldana_Left_Side_808x683.png.01a623a56dc0ddfa4728bc3909eeed87.png 

 

Right Side..

 

Kuldana_Right_Side_900x683.png.c89a1803efa87bfd5383c5af7de15341.png

Edited by JPJamie

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mcassell
17 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Jj and Mcassell

Data limited and away from comns til post weekend - so will.be brief. More great stuff here thank you both.

Mcassell curious as to source of your info 're Rosher/Roescher -  is it family? a photo would be great if one exists. How do you know  he took over from Molony?  Curious i could see no mention of Rosher in Jan 1919 Indian Army List. also this is first indication I have had that Molony married - I can find now indication of children - estate as dealt with by brother (Claude) post 1953 death. And Motor cycle magazine article is great - I think my grandfather's album includes photos of Attock - will check on return. lovely to see Sjt Fielder - JJ's trick cyclist! JJ -  I take it the photo posted is of Dawson( nor uout grandfather) ? 

.Regards

Paul

Most of the Rosher information came from his Officer's Service record. This notes his command of 22 Battery. All I got from the family was the info re his German ancestry and exile in India! Since he was an MMGS officer I see no reason why he should be on the Indian Army List (though quite a number of AMB officers were Indian Army).  Re Molony, I had assumed the postcard was from Major AW Molony as he was the only Molony associated with the MMGS but I agree there are problems with that identification.  I can find no evidence of marriage or a relative named MJ Molony though the tone of the message suggests a 'marital' relationship. Also, the postcard is from Bisley and dated July 1916 when Major Molony was already in India with 22 Battery! Curious.

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david murdoch
19 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

David Murdoch:  thanks for that great image of Clyno logo.  Now I can do more research with Google to get more images of those motorcycles.  This explains my grandfather's love of motorcycles, as he kept one in his backyard in Russell Street, Hamilton, Scotland. 

 

Paul:  the oval shaped picture (posted above) is of Robert Dawson, not my grandfather.  Dawson was engaged to my grandmother, but he was killed at the Battle of Ypres, France WWI.  This stuff takes looking at old pictures to another level.  Every time I scan in one of these small photos at 300 dpi, open it in Photoshop, adjust for color and sharpness, I see much more.  You get a feeling of going back in time...100 years.

 

Here is another group image at Kuldana 1916.  Unfortunately it's either backlit upper left, or a developing error, but I tried the best to fix that.  The shutter speed was probably under 1/60th as there is motion blur from the dog's head (you miss the dog in the smaller image) is moving.  One also wonders where they developed these images back then...something else to research...  

 

 

Kuldana_Group_852x584.png.4a26cd29397041dfd1f9d7dd49001186.png

 

Below is an image of Gunner Alexander Morrison Dowie 1618.  My grandfather wrote on the back: "Dowie in Civies (Copy from another Photo)." 

I cropped out messy edges on the original and cleaned it up.  I'm almost certain, Dowie is in the image above "Kuldana Group 1916." 

He is in the second row third from the right, holding the dog on his lap.

 

Dowie_Civies_495x677.png.9f174f0888bd4a66b203f5a5be5c25cc.png

JJ Your grandfather having this photo of Dowie probably indicates they were friends and kept in touch after the war. He was originally from Kingsbarns (near St Andrews) and married 3/10/1922 in Aberdeen - he was by then a bank accountant. Going deeper from my MMGS research, I have a particular interest in the Scottish volunteers, and will pursue this further to get family background on them and what became of them - in turn maybe find more descendants.  

Edited by david murdoch

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JPJamie

David Murdoch:

 

Thanks very much for your reply above. 

I am also interested in the Scottish volunteers as my grandfather James Petrie Jamieson more than likely was one of them.  

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Interesting that the arms rack at left of image is empty.

My grandfather's comment "NB arms rack" may a subtle comment on the lack of hostilities.

 

Kuldana_Bungalow_ArmsRack_852x735.png.093fc6c3f1d1b09e653d60864898b889.png

 

 

Edited by JPJamie

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david murdoch

The photo below is of camp at Parachinar 1919 right up on the Afghan border (now Kurram tribal area Pakistan).  This picture appears in David Fletcher's War Cars book.

The MMG battery is not identified which one, but may be able to work out from war diaries. There are two 1914 pattern Rolls Royce cars to the left. These are not Indian pattern so may be ex 13th L.A.M.B machines as they were disbanded in Mesopotamia  and the cars sent to India in 1919. They appear to have solid wheels fitted with NAP (normal air pressure tyres). In the original caption says the car in the centre is a Hotchkiss belonging to 1st A.M.B converted back from armoured car to tender. At this time the CO of 14th L.A.M.B  Nigel Fitzroy Somerset MC DSO transferred from Mesopotamia and took over 1st A.M.B May to September 1919.

20170516_182129.jpg

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david murdoch

"Alan Gilmour (may have been injured as picture is of him in a hospital bed)"

Got some more information on this chap.

Gunner Allan Gilmour 2420

He was discharged due to fractured left leg. (possibly a motorcycle accident)

Silver War Badge No 418433

Enlisted 13/9/1915

Discharged 18/6/1918 (age 28)

He received BWM only due to serving in India.

Alan_Gilmour_850x605.png.3715209cc148460c4da077f083851f60.png

Edited by david murdoch

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JPJamie
On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 15:16, david murdoch said:

"Alan Gilmour (may have been injured as picture is of him in a hospital bed)"

Got some more information on this chap.

Gunner Allan Gilmour 2420

He was discharged due to fractured left leg. (possibly a motorcycle accident)

Silver War Badge No 418433

Enlisted 13/9/1915

Discharged 18/6/1918 (age 28)

He received BWM only due to serving in India.

 

Thanks David!  Looks like that left leg may well be in some kind of cast.

 

Quote

 

 

Edited by JPJamie

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mcassell
On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 10:24, david murdoch said:

The photo below is of camp at Parachinar 1919 right up on the Afghan border (now Kurram tribal area Pakistan).  This picture appears in David Fletcher's War Cars book.

The MMG battery is not identified which one, but may be able to work out from war diaries. There are two 1914 pattern Rolls Royce cars to the left. These are not Indian pattern so may be ex 13th L.A.M.B machines as they were disbanded in Mesopotamia  and the cars sent to India in 1919. They appear to have solid wheels fitted with NAP (normal air pressure tyres). In the original caption says the car in the centre is a Hotchkiss belonging to 1st A.M.B converted back from armoured car to tender. At this time the CO of 14th L.A.M.B  Nigel Fitzroy Somerset MC DSO transferred from Mesopotamia and took over 1st A.M.B May to September 1919.

20170516_182129.jpg

This is without doubt a picture of 22 MMG Battery who went to Parachinar in May 1919. The armoured cars are from HQ AMBrigade - possibly 1AMB - who went to Parachinar on 3 June 1919 following the relief of Thal.  Captain A. Clifton, who commanded HQ AM Brigade, was with them and recalled that the Parachinar garrison was desperate for whisky.  He sent an armoured car to fetch some but when it arrived, in cases marked Haig's Whisky, it turned out to be tins of  cheese!

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david murdoch

Good to have an id on the MMG battery (after many years seeing this picture!) The others that were in theatre at this time (going by the recipients on the GSM medal roll), were 3rd MMG,15th MMG and 19th MMG who all had previous service on Western front and still had numbers of the original MMGS personnel. The three Rolls Royce belonging to 1st A.M.B  were Indian built things on civilian car chassis with single rear wheels and no turrets (designed by Clifton). There is a picture of them and mention of Clifton in David Fletcher's book on the Rolls Royce.  The A.M.B s that are represented on GSM roll are 1st,3rd,6th,10th and HQ 1st A.M.B brigade. 3rd A.M.B  had Minervas then received Rolls Royce (possibly ex 13th L.A.M.B), so could be them. Not sure if Somerset took over A.M.B brigade - looks like he transferred from Mesopotamia right when things kicked off on North West Frontier. He had been CO of 14th L.A.M.B then acting CO of the L.A.M.B Brigade. He was highly decorated and been in action since 1914 in France, Mesopotamia and Kurdistan. He's an interesting character in his own right.

1st A.M.B do appear on GSM roll, but all appear to be later MGC service numbers, not any low MMGS.

Edited by david murdoch
additional information

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pjwmacro
On 29/05/2017 at 15:43, mcassell said:

This is without doubt a picture of 22 MMG Battery who went to Parachinar in May 1919. The armoured cars are from HQ AMBrigade - possibly 1AMB - who went to Parachinar on 3 June 1919 following the relief of Thal.  Captain A. Clifton, who commanded HQ AM Brigade, was with them and recalled that the Parachinar garrison was desperate for whisky.  He sent an armoured car to fetch some but when it arrived, in cases marked Haig's Whisky, it turned out to be tins of  cheese!

Concur that if this is Parachinar in1919 then this must be 22 Bty. War diary absolutely clear, as are official history et al, that 22 Bty deployed from Rawlpindi to Parachinar inMay 19.

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pjwmacro

@ James. Please don't worry about Dawson being off topic for 22 Bty. Still fascinating. I think I have found Dawson in Lives. Will message separately. Service number 41235?

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pjwmacro
On 26/05/2017 at 18:17, mcassell said:

Most of the Rosher information came from his Officer's Service record. This notes his command of 22 Battery. All I got from the family was the info re his German ancestry and exile in India! Since he was an MMGS officer I see no reason why he should be on the Indian Army List (though quite a number of AMB officers were Indian Army).  Re Molony, I had assumed the postcard was from Major AW Molony as he was the only Molony associated with the MMGS but I agree there are problems with that identification.  I can find no evidence of marriage or a relative named MJ Molony though the tone of the message suggests a 'marital' relationship. Also, the postcard is from Bisley and dated July 1916 when Major Molony was already in India with 22 Battery! Curious.

 

Do you have a copy of Rosher's service record you can let me have? Reason I thought he might be on Indian Army list is that Molony, Farmer, Hargreaves and Windsor, who I know to be 22 Bty, are shown on the Indian Army List Jan, 1919' Vol 2 - found through Google see below.

 

Agree very curious ref Molony post cards in Bisley July 16 - but Molony is not an uncommon name. So maybe different Molonys??

 

Can one get copies of Motorcycle. If so from where?  Would really like to use this Sgt Fielder piece inan article for the MGC OCA magazine. Would that be okay?

 

Best Paul

IMG_20170531_023321.jpg

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pjwmacro
On 26/05/2017 at 07:02, Maureene said:

Kuldana was one of the cantonments at Murree, which was a "hill station" where the troops were posted during the summer months as it was much cooler. (Now Pakistan). The following images are from

Postcard: View Kuldana, Murree Hills

Postcard: Barracks, Kuldana (Murree Hills) c 1910

 

Cheers

Maureen

Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 3.40.53 pm.png

Screen Shot 2017-05-26 at 3.45.36 pm.png

 

Maureen. Thanks for all the photos. In slower time I will get scans of my grandfathers album for the FIBIs page.

 

Best, Paul

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear mcassell, 

British Army Officers stationed in India were (also) shown in Indian Army Lists. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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Maureene
2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Maureen. Thanks for all the photos. In slower time I will get scans of my grandfathers album for the FIBIs page.

 

Best, Paul

Many thanks Paul

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

Do you have a copy of Rosher's service record you can let me have? Reason I thought he might be on Indian Army list is that Molony, Farmer, Hargreaves and Windsor, who I know to be 22 Bty, are shown on the Indian Army List Jan, 1919' Vol 2 - found through Google see below.

 

 

Can one get copies of Motorcycle. If so from where?  

IMG_20170531_023321.jpg

Most of the copies of The Motor Cycle are available online

The Motor Cycle. Link is to Volume 16, January to June 1916. Links for other available online volumes may be accessed  here. Archive.org. 

 

Some Indian Army Lists are also available online. See the FIBIS Fibiwiki page  Indian Army List online

http://wiki.fibis.org/w/Indian_Army_List_online

 

If you want to access the links, currently select the Archive.org links, as the Digital Library of India site is not available due to maintenance.

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

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david murdoch

Paul. Got another piece of the jigsaw!

Managed to positively id Sgt Fielder.

Going by The Motor Cycle article he was "Mechanic Sergeant". I figured he was most likely ASC rather than MGC. Bit of a trawl through the  various  ASC A. Fielders, but got him, as his service record survives which confirms him.

He was Arthur James Fielder M2/100503 Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M) - way service reads he went straight to MGC(M).

He was from London and  joined ASC 29/5/1915 age 24 and giving trade as motor driver (on his record states mechanic). Married Florence Lillian Mathews 28/8/1815.

On his record shows he went to India with 22nd MMG on 26/2/1916, arriving Bombay 20/3/1916.

Backtracking to his MIC he got BWM only for same reason as the others. He did not qualify for the GSM/clasp as he was already back in UK by November 1919 for demob. Looks like he left 22nd on 29/9/1919 - record is rubber stamped and signed by Molony.

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pjwmacro
5 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. Got another piece of the jigsaw!

Managed to positively id Sgt Fielder.

Going by The Motor Cycle article he was "Mechanic Sergeant". I figured he was most likely ASC rather than MGC. Bit of a trawl through the  various  ASC A. Fielders, but got him, as his service record survives which confirms him.

He was Arthur James Fielder M2/100503 Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M) - way service reads he went straight to MGC(M).

He was from London and  joined ASC 29/5/1915 age 24 and giving trade as motor driver (on his record states mechanic). Married Florence Lillian Mathews 28/8/1815.

On his record shows he went to India with 22nd MMG on 26/2/1916, arriving Bombay 20/3/1916.

Backtracking to his MIC he got BWM only for same reason as the others. He did not qualify for the GSM/clasp as he was already back in UK by November 1919 for demob. Looks like he left 22nd on 29/9/1919 - record is rubber stamped and signed by Molony.

 

David that's more top stuff! 26/2/1916 is the sailing date of the Beltana from Devonport - so she must have arrived in Bombay (having gone through Suez) 20/3/16. Coincidentally those are the same dates of another ASC soldier attached to 22 Bty - 102138 Pte Harry Albert Cutler. His record also survives - he was born around 1892 (his service record is a little sketchy on this - age on joining, age on discharge and birthdate don't tally!) But he then settled in London.

However, not clear why Fielder didn't get IGSM? If he didn't leave India until late Sep 1919 - the 3rd Afghan War was over by then.Main fighting was May/Jun 19 and the cease-fire was signed in early August 19 - so why would be not have IGSM with NWF 1919 bar?

 

Keeping on 22 Bty topic!  I am still keen to see if I can track down the official formation and disbandment records for the battery. There must have been official paperwork for this! Can anyone help?

 

Best Paul

Edited by pjwmacro
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JPJamie
On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 20:43, pjwmacro said:

@ James. Please don't worry about Dawson being off topic for 22 Bty. Still fascinating. I think I have found Dawson in Lives. Will message separately. Service number 41235?

 

Oh good! 

 

I want to sincerely thank you for this wonderful research and the page you created for Robert Dawson, service number 41235.  That was a great treat seeing the page!   I also find all of this fascinating and feel like I've been in a time machine back 100 years ago.  I used Google to search for "Kuldana" and Murree Hills, now Pakistan.  Kuldana is a modern day Pakistani "resort."  As previously noted, the 22 Battery in the summer of 1916 must have gone to Kuldana in the summer,  because the high altitude helped avoid the heat. 

 

When you found Dawson in "Lives" was there any information?

 

As for your posting on the Beltana from Devonport, great stuff.  Please keep up researching disbandment records for the battery.  Would love to find out if my grandfather was on the Beltana from when it left 26/2/1916 (in the U.S.A. we write dates: 2/26/1916) and when it arrived back in the U.K.    

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear All,

Okay: 26/2/1916 translates into US-write, 2/26/1916.

But what about, say, the supremely-clear 3 Apr 1916 (used by the Brits in the Great War and WWII)?

This translates into 3/4/1916 - but in US-parlance, confusingly, 4/3/1916, revealing the weakness of that latter system.

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

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david murdoch

Paul. Regarding official paperwork for the MGC - that would give unit formation, merging and disbandment dates, I believe all this was destroyed in a fire prior to WW2, and then the individual service records destroyed in WW2 bombing. For this reason never been a definitive work on the MGC organisation as a lot of the original information is gone. Looks between the lists have well on the way to a full roster for 22nd. There are several on JJ's list still not positively identified as only have second names. I get the feeling these may be other ASC personnel. Looks like they were attached to 22nd prior to leaving UK and all embarked together. I will look again at the GSM roll - this time for ASC (as not been there yet). The other ASC chap Harry Cutler did get the GSM with clasp, so will look and see if I can find others.

If you like I can put them all on a spreadsheet with their medal entitlements,discharge dates ect (basically same format I'm doing for the whole MMGS! This will show up who got what medals - could be some were left at base camp so did not get GSM. Strange with Fielder as he would be a very important person in the Battery and you would expect he would have been with them in Parachinar.

I'll be looking for more background information on those MMGS numbers. As mentioned previously there looks to be quite a few Scottish names among them and I am interested in where they came from and what became of them. A lot of them have middle names so easier to pick them up on 1911 census, find birth certificates,marriage certs ect on Scotland's People site.

On the bulk of the medal index cards has address added in the same pen as the GSM entitlements. I noticed Dowie never got a GSM either, but see he was actually commissioned into I.A.R.O 19/8/1918 (to Highland Light Infantry) so he left the battery. The few with later MGC number probably replacements for likes of Dowie and Gilmour  - the majority look like they were with the battery from start to finish.

Edited by david murdoch

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