22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[pjwmacro]

9 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Football team No.3 Section 22nd MMG Battery.

Appears to be Percy Butt holding the ball, and William Frederick Telfer seated front left (right looking at the photo)

 

Back row first in from the left (looking at the photo) possibly Philip Bolger???

[david murdoch]

Still looking to identify 2420. Allan Gilmour. Nigel Walton has sent me a picture of the battery monkey - on this it is noted as being named "Titch" and belonged to Allan Gilmour. So in the original photo may be Allan Gilmour centre. All we have on him previously is:-

 

He was discharged due to fractured left leg. (possibly a motorcycle accident)

Silver War Badge No 418433 - record shows he  enlisted 13/9/1915 and was discharged 18/6/1918 (age 28). 

He has the highest service number and hence last enlistment for an original battery member. Presumably he received his service number at Bisley alongside George Botterill 2419 there is no listing for them in The Motorcycle in the weeks following. These two appear on the VM only roll, but looking at the main MGC(M) roll at the numbers  who enlisted on or around the same day they are in the middle of a group with some definite Scottish recruits. Though not certain yet I lean to Gilmour being Scottish  and possibly Botterill too. With a birth year of 1890 checking the Scottish records narrows down to a couple of possibles . One I discounted as I found with a middle name and service elsewhere. I'd assumed Botterill was English, but found one possible in Glasgow area. Need to dig deeper!

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Still looking to identify 2420. Allan Gilmour. Nigel Walton has sent me a picture of the battery monkey - on this it is noted as being named "Titch" and belonged to Allan Gilmour. So in the original photo may be Allan Gilmour centre. All we have on him previously is:-

 

He was discharged due to fractured left leg. (possibly a motorcycle accident)

Silver War Badge No 418433 - record shows he  enlisted 13/9/1915 and was discharged 18/6/1918 (age 28). 

He has the highest service number and hence last enlistment for an original battery member. Presumably he received his service number at Bisley alongside George Botterill 2419 there is no listing for them in The Motorcycle in the weeks following. These two appear on the VM only roll, but looking at the main MGC(M) roll at the numbers  who enlisted on or around the same day they are in the middle of a group with some definite Scottish recruits. Though not certain yet I lean to Gilmour being Scottish  and possibly Botterill too. With a birth year of 1890 checking the Scottish records narrows down to a couple of possibles . One I discounted as I found with a middle name and service elsewhere. I'd assumed Botterill was English, but found one possible in Glasgow area. Need to dig deeper!

 

 

I reckon that's Gnr Botteril on the right (looking at it) of the photo. And is it Edward Walton on the left?

Best, Paul

Edit: comparing the central chap to the hospital bed picture of Alan Gilmour- I don't think they are the same person. I could be wrong! But if they are both Alan Gilmour then the picture above must have been taken in Spring 1918 or earlier, going by Alan's discharge date.

Edited 27 February , 2018 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

Still a fair amount of work to do on 163649 Pte Arthur Fovargue. His MIC shows he was initially Royal Lancashire Regt, number 34874 and was awarded both the BWM and IGSM 08 with NWF 1919 clasp. The roll for the last shows him to be 22 MMG Bty MGC. He discharged 24 Feb1920 and his MIC gives an address of 373 Potobello Rd, W10.

 

Thereafter I am less certain, but he appears in the 1931 and 35 electoral roles o be living in Willesden East, at 6 Inman Rd with his wife Emma. I think they married at Holbeach, Lincs in Q3 1921. The 1962 electoral roll suggests that the couple had a daughter Mary E, age as yet unknown. It looks as if Arthur was born 24 Feb 1895 at Tydd St Mary, Lincs, the son of Stephen and Jane, and died Jan 1987 in Brent. However, I am still looking for the link to tie this categorically to one man and confirm it is the 22 Bty Arthur Fovargue.

 

No known photos. Any help most welcome.

 

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

68955 Gnr William James Hitchcock.   Another for whom we do not as yet have an identified photo. However, his service record, although fire damaged, is largely legible and is the best I have seen for a member of 22 Bty, and possibly of the MGC.

 

The service record shows he was a Nottingham based watchmaker, father James, who attested in the Sherwood Foresters (service number 59355) 12 Dec 1915 and was approved for the MGC 21Aug 1916.  He was posted RFC 14 Aug 16, but transfered back to Sherwood Foresters,19 Aug and listed as MGC(M) 22 Aug 16. By 5 Nov 16 he was at 6 Depot Bn MGC and shipped from Folkston to Boulogne 21 Apr 1917. On 23 Apr he is on the strength of the Base Depot in France before being posted to 19 MMG Bty by 26 May 1917.  He was wounded in action (GSW - actually shrapnel) on 4 Jun 17.

 

His medical notes are detailed (although I am struggling to read and interpret them) but he was admitted to 108 Fd Hospital, possibly via 53 Casualty Clearing Station, 9th Jun and then 4th General Hospital. He was back in England by 29 Jun, possibly at 45 Princess Elizabeth (Hospital??) and at a convalescent hospital Southampton from 9th Aug to 12 Sep 1917. At 19 Jul his notes record a small piece of shrapnel, 1/4 inch long between 7 and 8 ribs, and he was re-xrayed 26 Jul. 

 

William shipped from Southampton on 21 Mar 1918, arriving Bombay 27 Apr and joining 22 MMG Bty ar Rawlpindi 1st May 1918.  He was in trouble a few months later - being charged with missing roll call on 17 Sep and being awarded 7 days CB (confined to barracks) the following day, with Cpl Philip Bolger being listed as the witness.

 

After the war he discharged in Dec 1919 and returned to the watch and clock repair business. He received his BWM and VM in Dec 21 and wrote to the records office in acknowledgement and asking about his IGSM. He received this in Jun 1923.

 

From his profession and his Father's name, I have located William in the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census returns.  In the first 2, and in his birth and christening record, he was James William (nor William James).  I am almost certain he was born to James and Annie on 13 Sep 1890 at Leasbrooke, Riddings, Derbyshire and was christened 30 Nov, 1890.  His father was a chemist, into which profession William's elder brother Francis John (b abt 1881) followed him. The younger brother Percy Towndrow (b abt 1894) may also have done so _ he is listed as a Chemists's assistant in the 1911 census. There were at least 2 elder sisters, Harriet (b abt 1880) and Mary Anne (b abt 1883). At present I cannot find a record of William marrying or having children, but believe he died in Sep 1973 at Bashford,  Notts. Given the number of siblings, I would be surprised if there were not at least some living descendants or relatives.

 

Any help in interpreting the medical record or finding descendants gratefully appreciated. Regards Paul

Edited 3 March , 2018 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

163654 Gnr William Lobley

 

No known photo at present and section detail still tbc but IGSM + NWF 1919 clasp roll confirms 22 Bty MMGS. MIC gives him as starting as 22836 Pte with Loyal North Lancs Regt and provides a correspondence address of 65 Mostfield Lane, Brownlow Fold, Bolton, Lancs. No service record found.

 

What follows is yet to be proven - but based on the Bolton address, I think William was probably born abt Jul 1896 to Thomas and Selina (nee Walker). This baby William was baptised at St George's 4 Oct 1896. His father is recorded on the 1901 census, but in 1911 Selina was boarding with single cousins Anne and Arthur Walker at 38. Lyndhurst St, Bolton. Selina is still listed as married (not Widowed) but I cannot find Thomas (William's father). William is listed as an erand boy. His siblings are listed as John (b abt 1900) and Thomas (b abt 1903/4).

 

I have a potential marriage for him in1932 to Eveline Massey. I think William died 19 Jul 1962 in Wolverhampton, occupation listed as retired hairdresser with Arthur Lobley as informant. Alternatively he may have died in Manchester in1939. Complicated in that William Lobley is a relatively common name, although it seems to be more Yorkshire than Lancashire.

 

Any further information greatly appreciated. We will remember them.

 

Regards, Paul

Edited 21 March , 2018 by pjwmacro

[pjwmacro]

On 31/05/2017 at 18:26, david murdoch said:

Paul. Got another piece of the jigsaw!

Managed to positively id Sgt Fielder.

Going by The Motor Cycle article he was "Mechanic Sergeant". I figured he was most likely ASC rather than MGC. Bit of a trawl through the  various  ASC A. Fielders, but got him, as his service record survives which confirms him.

He was Arthur James Fielder M2/100503 Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M) - way service reads he went straight to MGC(M).

He was from London and  joined ASC 29/5/1915 age 24 and giving trade as motor driver (on his record states mechanic). Married Florence Lillian Mathews 28/8/1815.

On his record shows he went to India with 22nd MMG on 26/2/1916, arriving Bombay 20/3/1916.

Backtracking to his MIC he got BWM only for same reason as the others. He did not qualify for the GSM/clasp as he was already back in UK by November 1919 for demob. Looks like he left 22nd on 29/9/1919 - record is rubber stamped and signed by Molony.

 

 M2/100503  Alfred James Fielder Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M)

 

Doing further work on Alfred Fielder. Looks as if he and Florence had 3 children post war (Vera, Maisie and Ernest).  More to follow,

Regards, Paul

We Remember them Still

Edited 16 April , 2018 by pjwmacro

[abowell97]

Just wondering if there was any information regarding the return of battery members to the UK, or when the operations in India began to wind down? 

 

I ask as I'm currently writing a brief summary on the 22nd Battery for my dissertation, which revolves around a image-recognition application specifically for the MMGC badge, aiming to identify it in a crowded image, hopefully in the future to be able to distinguish between badges of different branches. Certainly been putting the images I have to good use!

 

Regards,

Alex.

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Just wondering if there was any information regarding the return of battery members to the UK, or when the operations in India began to wind down? 

Regards,

Alex.

 

Alex

 

It appears that the battery did not return to UK, en-masse, ie the same way they shipped out en-masse in February 1916 on a single troop ship.  Instead the battery appears to have been dissolved and dispersed in the period between about Sep-Dec 1919.  By this stage their numbers had been reduced somewhat from the original 70 odd who were shipped out, through postings, promotions and casualties.  There were however some re[;acements, but my gut feeling is that numbers had reduced - earlier in this thread I posted the bde returns for the battery - which showed about 50 persons present in Parachinar during the 3rd Afghan War.  It was after this that the battery effectively was dissolved; some of the men were shipped back to UK for discharge, a couple chose to either remain in India (or return to India / Far East very shortly after demob) and others were transferred into the Tank Corps or other Regts. Sometimes dates are given in individuals service records - or the medal rolls record when they were discharged.

 

In terms of when operations in India wound down, the short answer probably is they didn't.  The 3rd Afghan War was formally concluded by Peace Treaty in August 1919, but the North West Frontier remained tense with tribal troubles pretty much throughout the 1920's and 30s.  Despite the 3rd Afghan War concluding, conflict had already kicked off again by Sep/Oct 1919 in Waziristahn.  A google / Wikipedia search would give you further detail.

 

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

One year on from starting this thread - and I cannot begin to describe my thoughts and wonder at the progress made in increasing my understanding of the 70 odd officers and men of 22 Motor Machine Gun Battery, particularly my Grandfather, Ernest William Macro, the part they played in the war, in India in particular, but more broadly as well, and finding out a little more of  their lives and families.  We do remember them.

 

Over 700 posts, more photos than I can count, over 17,000 views, and most importantly contact established between 4 grandsons and 1 great grandson of soldiers of the battery. On top of which I am in contact with various family descendants of Lt Farmer and with a distant relative of Sgt Alfred Fielder.  And David Murdoch has had contact with descendants of the Collins brothers.  More to do of course - and I would particularly like to track down more about Cpl Ernest Warburton.

 

My sincere thanks to all who have contributed, but particularly @JPJamie, @abowell97, @IEnglish and @david murdoch

 

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

 M2/100503  Alfred James Fielder Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M)

 

 

M2/100503  Alfred James Fielder Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M)

 

Alfred Fielder was born (probably 2 Jan) 1891 in Lambeth, London, the 2nd son of Edward Benjamin Fielder, an Engineers Pattern Maker, and Ann Elizabeth nee Mucklow.  Edward and Ann had a large family; Alfred had an elder brother (Ernest Edward) and sister (Ethel Adelaide) and 3 younger sisters and 4 younger brothers. I know that Alfred was a trials rider for the New Hudson Motorcycle Company before the war; I believe as such he appears in the Motorcycle Magazine, although I have not as yet found any specific references; he is mentioned / his letters quoted in at least 2 wartime editions of the Motorcycle, as shown in earlier posts of this thread.

 

Alfred enlisted in the Army Service Corps in May 1915, and married Florence Lilian nee Matthews 28 August 1915, at just about the time he was attached to 22 Battery at Bisley/Eastbourne.  He proceeded to India with the Battery in February 1916 onboard the Beltana, and was demobilised in Dec 1919.  Despite this, I can find no entry on the NWF 1919 medal rolls, or his MIC that indicates he qualified for the IGSM 08, with NWF Afghanistan 1919 clasp.

 

After the war, Alfred and Florence had 3 children.  Vera Lilian, born 1920, married Thomas E Marvin and died in 1998.  Maisie Edith was born in 1921 and married Frank Radford.  Maisie passed away in 2007.  And a son, Ernest AA Fielder was born in 1925, for whom I have yet to find records of marriage or death.  I have not tracked down whether there were grandchildren for Alfred and Florence.

 

Alfred Fielder was I think the first of his siblings to die, in 1948, just a couple of years after his father Edward (d 1946). Florence lived a further 25 years, and passed away in 1974.  Alfred's elder brother Ernest died in 1951, I think single as his estate was left to his mother Ann.  It looks as if at least one other of Alfred's siblings (Arthur Frank, b1893, d 1975) emigrated to the USA and died out there.

 

Any further assistance gratefully received.

 

We remember them still.  

 

Regards, Paul

[abowell97]

13 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

It appears that the battery did not return to UK, en-masse, ie the same way they shipped out en-masse in February 1916 on a single troop ship.  Instead the battery appears to have been dissolved and dispersed in the period between about Sep-Dec 1919.  By this stage their numbers had been reduced somewhat from the original 70 odd who were shipped out, through postings, promotions and casualties.  

 

Thanks for the info Paul, much appreciated.

 

12 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

One year on from starting this thread - and I cannot begin to describe my thoughts and wonder at the progress made in increasing my understanding of the 70 odd officers and men of 22 Motor Machine Gun Battery, particularly my Grandfather, Ernest William Macro, the part they played in the war, in India in particular, but more broadly as well, and finding out a little more of  their lives and families.  We do remember them.

 

Definitely, and it's thanks to you for setting it up, I can't imagine many forums experiencing the same success that's been had here. Just recently I found several photographs that would indicate the Patrick and Jamieson families kept in touch up to at least the late 1940's, which is lovely, as without the forum I'd never have known their background.

 

Will help in any future research I can.

 

Regards, 

Alex.

[pjwmacro]

On ‎11‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 16:59, JPJamie said:

 

Wonderful images, especially the one on top.  I've got a quote from Gunner J.T. Gough with "Railway Comfort:"  "On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi."  Making pieces fit together to re-create the storyline is what this thread is all about.  Now I know, my grandfather was more than likely on that same train.  They look happy and probably figured out what the next few years were going to be like for them...compared to thousands of others on the Western Front.

 

Jim

 

Hope all well.  In the post above, you refer to "a quote from Gunner J.T. Gough with "Railway Comfort:"  "On landing at Bombay we met with the information that we had four days railway journey to Rawalpindi." Just trying to work out what you meant by the that?  Are you quoting JMT Gough from the MoMaGu article which is reproduced in the Motorcycle magazine?

 

Best, Paul

[abowell97]

Going through the photos again, thought I'd post a few of the one's I never got around to... though I know it's been quite a while.

On a side note, was there no war diary pre-1919 (though I realise it wasn't a war-zone) or any preserved activity log of the battery? Going through the National Archives records whilst looking for 3rd Tank Battalion diaries for Leonard Patrick I couldn't find any mention of the 22nd Battery, perhaps due to it's non war-related service.   

 

 

 

"M.M.G. Camp

Joka, 1917"

The far right tent is likely No.1 section judging by those standing in and near the entrance.

 

Regards,

Alex

[david murdoch]

Alex. Nice to see these additional photos. The first one they are filling Vickers belts with a mechanical loader, the second filling belts by hand. Both methods would be part of regular training. The belt filler is most likely mounted on top of it's carry case. The hand filling photo they look to be in an open area - possibly refilling belts on a firing range. Couple of interesting details in the second photo you can see the sun shining off one chap's shoulder title and in both you can see the MMGS shoulder patch worn on the helmet.

Edited 24 September , 2018 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

@abowell97 Alex thanks for posting the additional photos. On the bottom photo of the tents - do you think it is No1 section because it is in Walter Patrick's collection - or can you zoom in on the people sufficiently to identify them? Reason for asking is I think my grandfather's album has a similar or the same photo.  Although it may be labelled differently. I`ll check and come back to you. Additionally - I cannot determine where Joka might be - it comes up on google as being in SW Calcutta - which doesn't make much sense.

 

@david murdoch David - many thanks for the additional photos of the loader.

 

Regards, Paul

[abowell97]

Thanks for those extra images David, certainly interesting to see what they were using regularly.

 

The scan isn't quite as detailed as the physical copy, but I tried to pick out the few faces I could recognise, though it seems a good mix from all sections.

The man on the far right is Walter Patrick, and the individual to his left looked similar to:

From the No.1 section photograph

After squinting at the photo through a magnifying glass for five minutes, I'm starting to doubt this is him,

as the physical photo has more details but is still rather far away, so I may have jumped the gun on that one. 

There's quite a few faces from other pictures so it looks like a handful from all sections.

 

I had Joka down as Calcutta too, not too far from several other photos and postcards from around Calcutta, though without dates.

 

Edited 27 September , 2018 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

3 hours ago, abowell97 said:

I had Joka down as Calcutta too, not too far from several other photos and postcards from around Calcutta

Alex it looks like a summer camp in the hills - it's not Calcutta!

[abowell97]

20 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

Alex it looks like a summer camp in the hills - it's not Calcutta!

No, I know it couldn't be in Calcutta. I looked around the Murree hills area for anything that could be mis-spelled, but no luck. Not entirely sure where it could be, unless it's mis-labelled. 

Will have a look and see if there are any similar camp photos.

 

Edit: I think it was 'Topa', the style of writing really doesn't help, but I've found a few others labelled Topa so one assumes it is probably there. 

Edited 27 September , 2018 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

8 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Edit: I think it was 'Topa', the style of writing really doesn't help, but I've found a few others labelled Topa so one assumes it is probably there. 

Alex you are correct - it is Topa, At least that is what the caption in my grandfather's album says - and it is also dated 1917.  He also says "Topa (Himalayan Foot Hills) I think this is modern day Tapa-Mandi, in Punjab, located about 180 miles south west of the classic British hill station - Simla.  I will post my grandfather's photos (one is the same as you have posted) in a bit - quite busy at this end.  I`ll e-mail you over the next few days to explain why.

 

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

Topa is in the Murree hills - there is an upper and lower Topa. Looks like there were small British military hospitals there and also British cemeteries. Not far away from the other camp site at Kuldana

[pjwmacro]

17 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Topa is in the Murree hills - there is an upper and lower Topa

Well done David - that looks a much more realistic proposition than Topa-Mandi, or the Topa near Calcutta.  (Although to add to the confusion I have also found Topa Usman, near Gujrat, Pakistan,about half way between Rawalpindi and Lahore.

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

@abowell97 Alex - if you look at post #102 within this topic - you`ll see the majority of my grandfathers Topa images - including a duplicate of the one you have posted.  I`ll try and get better quality ones posted next week.

 

Regards, Paul

[abowell97]

14 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Alex - if you look at post #102 within this topic - you`ll see the majority of my grandfathers Topa images - including a duplicate of the one you have posted.

 

Ah yes, I didn't see those. There are a couple more than I have (and the one with the Murree Church is of a far better quality than mine).

Outside of one camp photos, the only other I found labelled as Topa is this one:

 

"Snow at Topa, Murree Hills"

 

Most of those I've been going over recently aren't particularly informative, like group photos can be, but I feel they're worth uploading - especially as so few photographs exist for most other MMG Batteries. 

Regards,

Alex.

Edited 28 September , 2018 by abowell97

[pjwmacro]

On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 16:04, abowell97 said:

"Snow at Topa, Murree Hills"

Guess it wasn't just a summer camp then!