22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

[pjwmacro]

On 23/10/2017 at 17:57, mcassell said:

I have been away from this forum for a while so what I have to say may be redundant. It would appear that 22 Battery was briefly involved in the "suppression of disorder" following the Amritsar massacre.

 

I too have been lax about getting on the forum over the last couple of months.  But this is fascinating and not something I was previously aware of previously.  I am just trying to locate the Disorders Enquiry Committee reports at present - a google search appears to have done the trick, but I haven't yet successfully found the passage you refer to.

I certainly have pictures in my grandfathers album of MG firing demonstrations - but I don't think I could specifically tie them down to these locations / dates. @JPJamie or @abowell97 might have more luck with their albums - although we are not completely clear if their relatives were still with the Battery at this time.  And Apr 19 is just about the time when Molony was warned to return to UK, before the 3rd Afghan War and of course this, intervened.  Definitely another piece in the jigsaw.  Thank you.

Best, Paul

[abowell97]

52 minutes ago, pjwmacro said:

I certainly have pictures in my grandfathers album of MG firing demonstrations - but I don't think I could specifically tie them down to these locations / dates. @JPJamie or @abowell97 might have more luck with their albums - although we are not completely clear if their relatives were still with the Battery at this time. 

 I'll certainly check this weekend. 

 

I know I have some firing demonstrations pics that have been posted on here before somewhere, but I'll double check. It doesn't help that so little of the photos I have are dated...

 

I get the feeling that both Walter Patrick and JP Jamieson left India, or at least the NWF early in 1919, though I have little to back this up. 

[mcassell]

14 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

I too have been lax about getting on the forum over the last couple of months.  But this is fascinating and not something I was previously aware of previously.  I am just trying to locate the Disorders Enquiry Committee reports at present - a google search appears to have done the trick, but I haven't yet successfully found the passage you refer to.

I certainly have pictures in my grandfathers album of MG firing demonstrations - but I don't think I could specifically tie them down to these locations / dates. @JPJamie or @abowell97 might have more luck with their albums - although we are not completely clear if their relatives were still with the Battery at this time.  And Apr 19 is just about the time when Molony was warned to return to UK, before the 3rd Afghan War and of course this, intervened.  Definitely another piece in the jigsaw.  Thank you.

Best, Paul

The relevant volume of the Disorders Enquiry Committee is volume 5.

[pjwmacro]

1 hour ago, mcassell said:

The relevant volume of the Disorders Enquiry Committee is volume 5.

 I can find the report online but it doesn't seem to mention the battery.  I cannot find the evidence Volume 5 online.  Do you have a link - or are you looking at hard copy.

 

Thanks, Paul

[pjwmacro]

On 10/23/2017 at 17:57, mcassell said:

The moveable column returned to Wazirabad on 7 May with 22^nd Battery proceeding shortly thereafter back to Rawalpindi.

 

It cannot have been that slowly.  According to the Battery's War Diary for the 3rd Afghan War, when they were sent forward to Parachinar as reinforcement to the Kurram Force  they left Rawalpindi by train at 0200 hours 14th May 1919, arriving at Kohat at 1300 hours.  Over the following 3 days the battery convoyed it's machines and petrol forward to Parachinar, being complete there by 2000 hours 17 May.

 

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

15 hours ago, abowell97 said:

  I'll certainly check this weekend. 

 

I know I have some firing demonstrations pics that have been posted on here before somewhere, but I'll double check. It doesn't help that so little of the photos I have are dated...

 

I get the feeling that both Walter Patrick and JP Jamieson left India, or at least the NWF early in 1919, though I have little to back this up. 

The pictures of firing demonstrations, one was labelled as being at Kohat - one shows Indian army officers, and what looks like Indian troops in the background.The other (the one marked Kohat) shows what looks like tribesmen, but may be militia - one of them appears to be wearing an officer's cut jacket over civilian clothes.

[pjwmacro]

On 10/25/2017 at 15:05, pjwmacro said:

 

It cannot have been that slowly.  According to the Battery's War Diary for the 3rd Afghan War, when they were sent forward to Parachinar as reinforcement to the Kurram Force  they left Rawalpindi by train at 0200 hours 14th May 1919, arriving at Kohat at 1300 hours.  Over the following 3 days the battery convoyed it's machines and petrol forward to Parachinar, being complete there by 2000 hours 17 May.

 

Regards, Paul

Apologies to @mcassell - just realised I have misread your "shortly", in post #626 as "slowly" - hence my comment quoted above, from #631.  Nevertheless, interesting that they must have turned around pretty swiftly if they were in Wazirabad on 7 May, i assume it would have taken at least a couple of days to get back to Rawalpindi.

 

I cannot find the evidence Volume 5 online.  Do you have a link - or are you looking at hard copy?

 

Regards, Paul

 

 

[MaureenE]

15 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

I cannot find the evidence Volume 5 online.  Do you have a link - or are you looking at hard copy?

• "Report of Captain J A S Ewing 19th Lancers on operations of Mobile Column in Sialkot area during the Punjab Disturbances"  Includes Motor Machine Gun Battery under Major Maloney, page 200 Evidence taken before the Disorders Inquiry Committee: Volume V: Gujranwala, Gujrat, Lyallpur and Punjab Provincial. 1920. HathiTrust Digital Library 

 

I can't see where it specifically says 22nd Battery.

Cheers

Maureen

Edited 27 October , 2017 by Maureene

[pjwmacro]

8 hours ago, Maureene said:

Includes Motor Machine Gun Battery under Major Maloney, page 200 Evidence taken before the Disorders Inquiry Committee: Volume V: Gujranwala, Gujrat, Lyallpur and Punjab Provincial. 1920. HathiTrust Digital Library 

 

Thanks Maureen. Maloney will be a mis-spelling of Molony - hence must be 22 Bty.

Best, Paul

[JPJamie]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 09:52, david murdoch said:

Just found this while searching newspaper archives for Scottish related MMGS articles!

In the Fifeshire Advertiser dated 12th August 1916. This is a thank you letter dated 13th July 1916 from India to the paper from L/Cpl "J. G. Jamieson" MMGS for the receipt of a war fund parcel. Original link below, but managed to cut and save in a readable form.

Interesting for JJ as from his grandfather, but gives some interesting information as to what the battery had done in the first four months on being in India. The dates show again that mail to and from would take about one month. 

Interesting as showing his pre war links with his home town - as he was originally from Dysart (now part of Kirkcaldy).

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0001577/19160812/023/0002

 

WOW! 

 

Thanks David for this posting, but first a few things. 

I've been off this site for a while and just decided enough is enough and I need to check in again. 

I even had to reset my password, it's been so long.

 

There are a few things of interest here.  My Grandfather was James P. Jamieson, not James G. Jamieson, however that might just be a miss print.  His father John Jamieson worked at the Linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy, so that all makes sense.       

Edited 6 November , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

4 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

WOW! 

 

Thanks David for this posting, but first a few things. 

I've been off this site for a while and just decided enough is enough and I need to check in again. 

I even had to reset my password, it's been so long.

 

There are a few things of interest here.  My Grandfather was James P. Jamieson, not James G. Jamieson, however that might just be a miss print.  His father John Jamieson worked at the Linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy, so that all makes sense.       

JP. I've been away a lot  too due to work commitments.

I'm pretty sure it's just a typo in the newspaper of the time - as everything else points to being him. He was born in 1892 at 247 St Clair Street (Sinclairtown) Dysart. The family were still there in 1901 Census at a different street address. I have his birth and marriage certificates in his soldier's file if you don't already have them. I have not pinned him down in 1911 Census. Do you have any idea when he moved? Presumably for work - the letter hints he was in Dysart/Kirkcaldy at least fairly soon before the war. So really he was a Fifer born and raised. I know the street well as it's five minutes down the hill from where my ice hockey team play, and the motorbike shop at the bottom of the hill!

[JPJamie]

20 hours ago, david murdoch said:

JP. I've been away a lot  too due to work commitments.

I'm pretty sure it's just a typo in the newspaper of the time - as everything else points to being him. He was born in 1892 at 247 St Clair Street (Sinclairtown) Dysart. The family were still there in 1901 Census at a different street address. I have his birth and marriage certificates in his soldier's file if you don't already have them. I have not pinned him down in 1911 Census. Do you have any idea when he moved? Presumably for work - the letter hints he was in Dysart/Kirkcaldy at least fairly soon before the war. So really he was a Fifer born and raised. I know the street well as it's five minutes down the hill from where my ice hockey team play, and the motorbike shop at the bottom of the hill!

 

Once again David you dig up the past superbly!

 

I have a photograph of my Grandfather taken in Dysart.  I did not know the family was still there in 1901 and did not know this address!  I would be most interested in the date of his marriage as it relates to another very relevant (Robert Dawson, who died from wounds received during the third battle of Ypres, Flanders on 27th October 1917) family story.  My Great Grandfather worked at the linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy and my father told me you could smell the factory on the train to Kirkcaldy.  Grandad moved to Hamilton and met my Grandmother while he was living in a flat.  Later he moved to 54 Russell Street, Hamilton.  I often visited my Grandparents on weekends.  It was there I learned about Rangers and Celtic football and how to stay inside (Grandparents were Presbyterians) on Sundays to avoid the Celtic hooligans.  He had a small motor powered bicycle and loved to ride it, but never a real motorcycle or car.   He was a draper by trade after the war and worked for the Hamilton Co-Operative.    Thank you David! 

 

James P. Jamieson

Edited 7 November , 2017 by JPJamie

[JPJamie]

Belton and Eastbourne MMGS Training Centers.

 

Does anyone know the difference between the huge Belton MMGS training center and Eastbourne training center?  Why were there two centers? 

Did they want to isolate those going to India (the better deal!) from those going to the trenches? 

 

Here is a link to the Belton Training Center on YouTube

 

Edited 7 November , 2017 by JPJamie

[david murdoch]

37 minutes ago, JPJamie said:

 

Once again David you dig up the past superbly!

 

I have a photograph of my Grandfather taken in Dysart.  I did not know the family was still there in 1901 and did not know this address!  I would be most interested in the date of his marriage as it related to another very relevant family story.  My Great Grandfather worked at the linoleum factory in Kirkcaldy and my father told me you could smell the factory on the train to Kirkcaldy.  Grandad moved to Hamilton and met my Grandmother while he was living in a flat.  Later he moved to 54 Russell Street, Hamilton.  I often visited my Grandmother (Jessie Orr-Jamieson) on weekends.  It was there I learned about Rangers and Celtic football and how to stay inside (Grandparents were Presbyterians) on Sundays to avoid the Celtic hooligans.  He had a small motor powered bicycle and loved to ride it, but never a real motorcycle or car.   He was a draper by trade after the war and worked for the Hamilton Co-Operative.    Thank you David! 

 

James P. Jamieson

James. I'll send you the family history details by email. Marriage date was 7th January 1922.

[JPJamie]

42 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

James. I'll send you the family history details by email. Marriage date was 7th January 1922.

 

Perfect and thank you again! 

 

After sharing with some of my family, we're wondering if this clipping may have been written by a "ghost writer" using my Grandfather's name.  There may have been security concerns regarding information appearing on British newspapers from the "front" of the war.   There was probably a strong feeling of how to thank the newspaper for the parcel sent from the employee war fund, with all that in mind.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but the style of writing seems a bit "lofty" for my Grandfather.   

 

Edited 7 November , 2017 by JPJamie

[pjwmacro]

12 hours ago, JPJamie said:

Belton and Eastbourne MMGS Training Centers.

 

Does anyone know the difference between the huge Belton MMGS training center and Eastbourne training center?  Why were there two centers? 

Did they want to isolate those going to India (the better deal!) from those going to the trenches? 

 

 

 

Jim

Belton (Lincolnshire) was the Machine Gun Corps (Not MMGS) Depot and Training Centre - established in Oct 15, as the Machine Gun Corps itself was formed (incorporating the MMGS) 

 

HQ and main Training Centre of the MMGS was Bisley, (Surrey).  Established (I think) in late 1914 as the MMGS set up as an organisation - it was the depot to which our respective grandfathers would have initially reported.  I remained (again I think) the depot of the MGC(Motors) as the MMGS were incorporated into the MGC.  However, training for Heavy Branch MGC  (which eventually became the Tank Corps) was shifted away from Bisley, initially to Elevden, (Norfolk) in Apr 16, and subsequently in autumn 16 to Bovington Dorset.

 

I am less clear how Eastbourne fits into the picture.  It was a large training centre in its own right - but not I think dedicated to MMGS/MGC(M).  It may have been used as a holding camp once troops had been through basic training or was possibly just a "training run" destination.  I think Motors Batteries also used Belton Park for this purpose - certainly there are photos of Motors Batteries, which appear to have been taken at Belton.

 

Regards, Paul

[pjwmacro]

11 hours ago, JPJamie said:

 

After sharing with some of my family, we're wondering if this clipping may have been written by a "ghost writer" using my Grandfather's name.   

 

Jim you could well be right (although I think "style" as a whole was more formal in those days even amongst workers and soldiers).  It`s still an interesting clipping - and it is clearly based on information your grandfather sent, as it corroborates Fielder's letter to Motorcycle.

 

Best, Paul

[david murdoch]

1 hour ago, JPJamie said:

 

Perfect and thank you again! 

 

After sharing with some of my family, we're wondering if this clipping may have been written by a "ghost writer" using my Grandfather's name.  There may have been security concerns regarding information appearing on British newspapers from the "front" of the war.   There was probably a strong feeling of how to thank the newspaper for the parcel sent from the employee war fund, with all that in mind.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but the style of writing seems a bit "lofty" for my Grandfather.   

 

The letter is most likely copied from a hand written letter which may explain the typo and possibly some "journalistic licence" in the wording. It can be seen in the general newspapers they reports often from censored / filtered information. However going by The Motorcycle they published many things  - naming units and stating how many MMG batteries were in France on a given date, but then later this changes to "a battery in France" or "somewhere in India".

[pjwmacro]

With thanks to @mcassell and @Maureene for information reference the Spring 1919'disturbances the 22 Bty timeline is updated as per below:

 

22 Battery Motor Machine Guns - Timeline                v0.2 as at 06 Nov 17
1915
June 15 - formed Bisley. 2lt EP Windsor posted 23 Jun 15
? Eastbourne trip?  (JJ photo)
Lt MH Roescher A Adjt at Bisley
Nov 16: Maj AW Molony posted in command at Bisley
1916
26 Feb 16. 5 officers and 68 NCOs and soldiers + vans, motorcycles and sidecars embarked Devonport SS Beltana.
20 Mar 16. Disembarked Bombay
Late Mar. Travelled to Rawalpindi. (4 day journey)
Apr 16. NWF tour. See Sgt Fielder letter the Motorcycle July 13th 1916. Depart Pindi 5th Apr for Nowshera. Includes Mardran, Peshawar, Landi Khotal, Thal, Parachinar and Kohat. Return to Pindi 1st May.
Summer 16 (hot season)???: Kuldana/Murree.
Christmas 16: Winter leave period. Sgt Fielder and Cpl Jamieson in Calcutta.
1917
?? Jung, NWF (EWM album)
Summer?? Topa (Himalayan foothills) and Kuldana/Murree (EWM album)
1918
Jan. Morgha (near Pindi) (EWM album).
Summer. Murree
Jul 18 - (JJ Photos) - of both Murwa Hills (#515)  and "Operations on the Khyber"
?? Taj Mahal trip (Cpls Jamieson and Patrick + others)
1919
Feb. Gondal (EWM album)
19 Apr - 7 May: "Mobilie column policing operations with 19th Lancers in vicinity of Wazirabad, Lyallpur and Gujranwala. (Evidence from the Disorders Enquiry Committee, Vol 5, report by Capt Ewing)
May - Aug. 3rd Afghan War. See war diary: WO95/5392
Autumn?? Battery disbanded. Maj Molony to UK mid Oct. Lt Roescher assumes command, returning to UK himself (depart Bombay 27 Nov 19.)

 

Still need to get to grips with what was happening in the Khhyber in summer 1918!

[abowell97]

Ah, great stuff!

Really pieced together a good image of their tour.

I noticed a fair few more pictures had been added to the map from J.P.Jamieson. They're in and around Srinigar, with some dated 1917. I'm not sure if they visited more than once in their tour, but 1917 seems to be a date for a Kashmir visit. 

 

On a side note I did find Walter Patrick's brother, Leonard Patrick's application for the M.M.G.C in dated 1915. I can't find out much more, but his medal card lists him as serving in the MMGC, Royal Field Artillery and Tank Corps. No idea if he actually joined a Battery or not.

[david murdoch]

37 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

Ah, great stuff!

Really pieced together a good image of their tour.

I noticed a fair few more pictures had been added to the map from J.P.Jamieson. They're in and around Srinigar, with some dated 1917. I'm not sure if they visited more than once in their tour, but 1917 seems to be a date for a Kashmir visit. 

 

On a side note I did find Walter Patrick's brother, Leonard Patrick's application for the M.M.G.C in dated 1915. I can't find out much more, but his medal card lists him as serving in the MMGC, Royal Field Artillery and Tank Corps. No idea if he actually joined a Battery or not.

 Nice information!  I had him on my MMGS list but not connected to Walter until now. His service record survives and in good condition - his record page is very well filled out and legible. He was Gunner 2712 MMGS/MGC(Motors)/MGC (Heavy Section) and then 200573 Tank Corps. He enlisted 29/11/1915. Arrived France 10/9/1916. He spent some time at MGC base depot at Camiers, and posted very briefly to 13th MMG Battery (in the field), then C Battalion Heavy Branch (Tanks). Renumbered Private 200573 into Tank Corps and served with C Coy. 3rd (L) Battalion Tank Corps. Discharged 1/2/1919.

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, david murdoch said:

 Nice information!  I had him on my MMGS list but not connected to Walter until now. His service record survives and in good condition - his record page is very well filled out and legible. He was Gunner 2712 MMGS/MGC(Motors)/MGC (Heavy Section) and then 200573 Tank Corps. He enlisted 29/11/1915. Arrived France 10/9/1916. He spent some time at MGC base depot at Camiers, and posted very briefly to 13th MMG Battery (in the field), then C Battalion Heavy Branch (Tanks). Renumbered Private 200573 into Tank Corps and served with C Coy. 3rd (L) Battalion Tank Corps. Discharged 1/2/1919.

Thank David. @abowell97. Danger of getting off topic here - but I will take an increased interest in Leonard Patrick from now on - as I originally commissioned into 3 RTR. Given he arrived in France 10 Sep 16 I assume he was not with C Coy HBMGC at Flers-Courcelotte 15 September 16(I will check my books) but from what David says it seems likely he fought at Cambrai and through the 1918 battles (March retreat and the 100 days).

@delta for interest.

[delta]

Thanks for the heads up Paul.

He is not on my list but I will follow up.

Based on the details above  he appears to be an individual reinforcement who transferred to C Bn on its formation and this should be recorded in his documents 

[pjwmacro]

6 hours ago, delta said:

Thanks for the heads up Paul.

He is not on my list but I will follow up.

Based on the details above  he appears to be an individual reinforcement who transferred to C Bn on its formation and this should be recorded in his documents 

As David says his record survives in good condition. Haven't found it myself yet but will look next week.

Best, Paul

[delta]

David has kindly sent me the details and his name is listed amongst several others which are most familiar.

He appears to have later served with C Coy of 3rd Light Bn so it is likely he joined No 9 Coy when it formed.