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Remembered Today:

pte fred brown 2nd suffolks44481


Steve hiscox

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I'm researching my great grandfather's whereabouts as to where he may have been when he was shot in march/April 1918. We know he enlisted into the 2nd suffolks but when wounded my gt. Grandmother received a letter from chaplain of 11 the suffolks in mid April.  I don't think the two battalions were in the same vicinity around that time.I'm also trying to work out the anzac regiments that would have been around at the time as we believe he was rescued from no man's land by anzac soldier and that my grandmother was in regular contact with his family over the years

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I don't think you have the right Frederick Brown.  

 

The Medal Rolls show Frederick Brown 44481 only served in the 2nd Bn. Suffolk Regiment.

44478 was posted and renumbered to the 2nd Suffolks 6 September 1918 in France at the IBD and joined The Battalion on the 8th September.
As was 44488.  They were both originally in the South Staffordshire Regiment and their numbers bracket 44481.
The war diary of the 2nd Suffolks shows 228 reinforcements arrived on the 8th September 1918.

 

Pte 44481 Brown must have been in the same draft and posted to the 2nd Suffolks in September 1918.  

He could not therefore have been serving with that Battalion or that Regiment with that number in April 1918.

 

 

Ken

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Did your GGF have a second name? Was Fred(erick) his first?

Mike

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7 hours ago, kenf48 said:

I don't think you have the right Frederick Brown.  

 

The Medal Rolls show Frederick Brown 44481 only served in the 2nd Bn. Suffolk Regiment.

44478 was posted and renumbered to the 2nd Suffolks 6 September 1918 in France at the IBD and joined The Battalion on the 8th September.
As was 44488.  They were both originally in the South Staffordshire Regiment and their numbers bracket 44481.
The war diary of the 2nd Suffolks shows 228 reinforcements arrived on the 8th September 1918.

 

Pte 44481 Brown must have been in the same draft and posted to the 2nd Suffolks in September 1918.  

He could not therefore have been serving with that Battalion or that Regiment with that number in April 1918.

 

 

Ken

 

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Thanks Kenf  ..... that's extremely interesting. I will contact the south staffs museum and see if I can dig up any more information..much appreciated  steve

6 hours ago, Langdon said:

Did your GGF have a second name? Was Fred(erick) his first?

Mike

Hi Langdon. ..yes  - frederick william brown

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There's service papers to 16379 Frederick William Brown, 11th Battalion Suffolk Regiment, from Cambridge, on Find My Past. :-)

 

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007287381%2f01058&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7287381%2f57%2f1058&highlights=""

Edited by SFayers
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I'm not sure what the South Staffs Museum can tell you unless they have the muster Rolls.

 

Both men cited in my post were mobilised at Burslem in late April 1918 and posted to the 3/5th Bn South Staffs Regiment, a TF Home Service unit who, according to the LLT were stationed at Lincoln at the time. They were posted to the Depot of the South Staffs on the 4th September and embarked at Dover for Calais the same day.  On the 6th September at the IBD they were posted to the 1/5th South Staffs for admin purposes and then posted to the 2nd Suffolks on the authority of Army Order 204/1916 (this order meant TF soldiers could be transferred from TF units to Regular or New Army battalions) and joined the Battalion in the field on the 8th, as noted above.  

 

Although originally posted to a TF unit in the UK neither men cited were allocated TF numbers 44478 was 49721 South Staffs. and 44488 was 49641.  Both were miners aged 19/20, and therefore were 'combed out' of their reserved occupation following the Army's losses in March and conscripted under the terms of the Military Service Act(s).

 

From the medal rolls it's clear Pte 44481 Brown did not serve in an active service unit of the South Staffordshire Regiment.  Sometimes the rolls show home based units on the Roll but just as often, ask in his case only the operational unit is shown.

 

His age and other biographical details such as occupation, location etc may help to establish whether or not he was likely to have been in the same cohort as the men whose records have survived and whose numbers bracket his.

 

Ken

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This chap though was wounded on 1st July 1916 - I can't see a tie-in with April 1918?

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6 minutes ago, SFayers said:

This chap though was wounded on 1st July 1916 - I can't see a tie-in with April 1918?

 

No, but at least he was in the 11th Bn when wounded!

 

well spotted and at least we know something about him.

Ken

 

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On FMP there are also fragments of casualty return forms which detail a 42713 F Brown, 11th Suffolk being admitted to No. 5 Convalescent(?) Depot, Cayeux. Sadly no dates.

 

From the Medal Index Cards this chap is also a Frederick. Both these men served at some point with the 11th Suffolks; 16379 was wounded on the 1st July 1916 (and was serving at home in the Labour Corps by 1918), 42713 was either wounded or sick at some point with the 11th Suffolks (later posted as 128944 45th Royal Fusiliers, and at some point attached to 240 Trench Mortar Battery from his medal roll entry).

 

With no further evidence to go on, if the reference you have to wounding in April 1918 is correct, the most likely contender of these two chaps is 42713.

 

cheers

 

Steve

Edited by SFayers
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42713 appears to be part of a group of men who embarked to France on 5-4-1918 and transferred to 11th Suffolks on 16-4-1918. They joined 11th Battalion on 21-4-1918.

 

 

Steve.

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One last thing, the casualty return forms on FMP which include 42713 Frederick Brown, also include three members of 15th Battalion Suffolk Regiment being admitted at Cayeux; for the 15th Suffolk to be in France, this would date the return form(s) as May 1918 (at the earliest) or thereafter. One of these three men, 45422 George Fitzjohn, has surviving service papers which indicate he was badly wounded and sent back home at the end of September 1918; on balance, therefore, the casualty return form(s) must date to between May and September 1918.

 

Circumstantial evidence, but the time frame at least (plus Steve's notes above) is correct for this potentially being your man.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

Edited by SFayers
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Thanks to everyone for your input and suggestions. My daughter looked on ancestry a few weeks back having been given 2 numbers relating to frederick browns. one of these numbers relating to a soldier in 2nd suffolks seemed fairly plausible so I ordered a birth certificate. Which gave us the proof that his number  was 44481 as we knew his mothers maiden name and date and place of birth as per birth certificate. I am puzzled how chaplain to 11 suffolks was to notify my gt grandmother as I don't believe they were at same place...I'm really struggling to work out what anzac regiment played a part in his rescue..my father seems to believe  this soldier received a mm for this .....without any less I'm pretty stuck 

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Hi Steve,

 

Certainly an perplexing one! :-)

 

As a matter of interest, how have you tied the birth certificate you have to this specific soldier? Is it a birth certificate of his child and the father's service number (44481) and regiment (2nd Suffolks) are quoted on it?

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

 

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I wrote to the suffolk regt. Museum as we had a clue he'd served in suffolks . They wrote back with only I think 2 fred browns - one served at gall I policy and onear the western front. They both had numbers so we looked on ancestry site with the no. 44481 at hand and decided to order birth certificate and as I said everthing matched ..surname , date of birth and as we have a family tree we could match mothers maiden name

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25 minutes ago, Steve hiscox said:

I wrote to the suffolk regt. Museum as we had a clue he'd served in suffolks . They wrote back with only I think 2 fred browns - one served at gall I policy and onear the western front. They both had numbers so we looked on ancestry site with the no. 44481 at hand and decided to order birth certificate and as I said everthing matched ..surname , date of birth and as we have a family tree we could match mothers maiden name


What Steve was getting at is whether there was anything on the birth certificate which gave the fathers military details (service number etc) ?

Otherwise it would be difficult to tie a service number to a man unless you had some other documents which gave the service number and some identifying information to link the two.

Craig

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I suspect 44481 is either Frederick Brown b. 1st quarter 1897 Stoke on Trent or (less likely) Frederick Brown b. 4th quarter 1900 in the same town.

 

It really helps if you tell us what you know.  How old was he? Where was he in 1911? etc. I don't see how his birth certificate helps with identifying his military service in 1918 unless you have more information.

 

Ken

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Born tipton staffs 15/6/1896 

Died March 1970

Married 24/8/1918 to Annie dankes

Father George brown

Mother Sarah brown 

1901 census lived at sedgely rd east staffs

Mother's maiden name Sarah price

 Hope this helps....

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Well, he's certainly in the catchment for the South Staffs, he was still at Sedgely Road in 1911 and employed as a moulder.

 

Arthur William Hinton 44494 kia 23.10.1918 was also from Tipton we have to assume he was in the same draft as he had less than 12 months service when he died.

 

So you would appear to have the right Frederick Brown! However as Steve ( the other one!) says a bit perplexing:-)

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for your attention and advice everybody...I've contacted verybody I thought would have the best chance of knowing something about where he was wounded and anzac regiment involved in his rescue so I'm at a a bit of a dead end currently. The letter written by chaplain william gaisford buregis was dated mid April with an apology for a delay in writing and sending it...major battle cause this with many wounded ? Was chaplain brought in due to 2nd suffolks being killed/wounded. .?just what anzac regiments were around  near 2nd suffolks. Anybody got a time machine I can borrow?

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Couple of others to add Ken, which I think backs-up your analysis, 44483 Frank Cook 2nd Suffolks, KiA 1st October 1918 (formerly 49598 S Staffs Regiment) and 44485 Leonard Cross 2nd Suffolks, DoW 29th September 1918 (formerly 49669 S Staffs Regiment) (both from Soldiers Died in The Great War). I note from his service papers 44478 Frank Brough was allotted his service number on his transfer to the Suffolk Regiment from the South Staffs on 6th September 1918; presumably 44481 would have been allotted at the same time or very shortly thereafter. Assuming this was indeed the case, I concur that with the number 44481, Frank Brown couldn't have been serving with 11th Suffolks in April 1918.

 

I'm sure this is entirely coincidental, but in the 11th Suffolk's' diary for April 1918, it states on the 15th April that the battalion was relieved by the 2/6th South Staffords after it had taken up a line of defense along the railway line southeast of Bailleul Station. Could it still be possible that if this is the same man, that he saw earlier active service with the South Staffs and was wounded serving with the 2/6th Battalion during the Battle of the Lys? (If this was the case, I'm surprised there would be no mention of this on his medal roll entry, but as we know, the medal rolls are not always gospel!)

 

Perplexing indeed!! :-)

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Oh, the Australian connection with the 11th Suffolks during the Battle of the Lys in April 1918 would be the 1st Australian Division, which came under XV Corps together with 11th Suffolks.

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With regard to 2nd Suffolks in September / October 1918, during the Battles of the Hindenburg Line (specifically the Battle of the Canal du Nord and the Battle of Cambrai), it was then part of VI Corps, Third Army. The only antipodean connection I can see here is that the New Zealand Division was with IV Corps (also Third Army); at the time the Australian Corps was in action elsewhere in the Battle of the St Quentin Canal and the Battle of Beaurevoir.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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Steve,

 

Just a couple of ideas for further avenues for you to explore:

 

1. Do you have a marriage certificate for your g grandfather? I notice his date of marriage is 24th August 1918; it's always possible the marriage certificate might have his military service details on it (at the very least it should certainly state his regiment at the time) - this would then tell you if he was with the South Staffs or the Suffolks before the 6th September 1918.

 

2. I'm not sure if one survives or not, but if there's an Absent Voters list for Tipton and his address was the same in 1918 as it was in 1901, this would also (hopefully) confirm Frederick's service number and regiment.

 

Do you know if Frederick's medals survive anywhere in the family? If you can find these, this will tell you unequivocally if what his regimental number was.

 

cheers

 

Steve

Edited by SFayers
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Got a copy of marriage certificate in front of me - all it states under rank or profession is 'soldier' 

As for the medals ..no one knows where they are although his son told us before he died that he'd seen them. 

Absent voters list.. where should I look for that? Council archive? 

Thanks so much for your persistence

Just in case it may have a bearing my father told me many years ago that he ended up in the royal herbert at woolwich

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