CCS 2nd Passchendaele

[Gardenerbill]

When 170th Brigade Attacked between Schaap-Balie and Poelcapelle 26th/27th October 1917 (parrt of 2nd Passchendaele) to which Casaualty Clearing Stations would the wounded be taken?

[sotonmate]

For such a busy happening ! First days of 2nd Passchendaale. XIV Corps of 5 Army,35,50 and 57 Divisions (of which 170 Bde was part). Ordinarily an FA would be allocated to a Bde, and in the ORBAT for 57 Div 170 might have been linked to 2/2 Wessex FA, 171 to 3/2 West Lancs FA, and 172 to 2/3 Wessex FA.

A clue might be gained from the FAs War Diaries where it might be shown the disposal of casualties, or perhaps higher up in the chain the ADMS Diary.

2/2 Wessex : WO95/2975/2

3/2 West Lancs : WO95/2975/3, and,

2/3 Wessex : WO95/2975/3

ADMS 57 Division : WO95/2969/2

all digital.

Proven might have been a convenient site as there were at least 3 CCS there at the time, though various sources don't agree, CCS12,43,64 ?

Plus,some of the 170 Bde DOWs for this period are buried there.

Edited 28 March , 2017 by sotonmate

[TEW]

Fifth Army had the following CCSs 4, 12, 13, 32, 46, 47, 61, 62, 63 and 64.

 

I have a table showing Fifth Army admissions to CCSs Noon 26/10/1917 to Noon 28/10/1917 which specify the Dozinghem group 4, 47 & 61 and the Mendinghem group 12, 46 & 64.

 

There is also a memo stating that from 15/10/1917 the Mendinghem group would take in;

Gas cases from all Corps

Head injuries from all Corps

Some wounded/sick from 18 Corps

Walking wounded from 14 Corps

 

The Dozinghem group would take in;

All CCSs. All wounded using ambulance cars from 14 & 18 Corps

4 CCS. Lying sick from forward area of 14 Corps

61 CCS Self-Inflicted wounds, infectious and eye centre

47 CCS Doubtful gassed cases and ear cases.

 

So, the answer you're after depends on the nature of the injury as much as how he was evacuated. A quick look through 12 and 46 CCS diary shows they remained open throughout IE they weren't rotating admissions between the CCS group.

 

4 CCS seem to have been evacuating not yet diagnosed, nervous men to 62 CCS.

 

TEW

 

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Sotonmate and TEW,

I will study your replies when I get home tonight.

[sotonmate]

Gb

 

A name might work wonders !

 

Later: just seen your other thread so will withdraw.

Edited 28 March , 2017 by sotonmate

[Gardenerbill]

2 hours ago, sotonmate said:

Gb

 

A name might work wonders !

 

Later: just seen your other thread so will withdraw.

 

No problem, my G Unlce Tom Bradley served with the 2/4th LNL but was Transferred to the Labour Corps some time around the end of November early December 1917 so no longer fit for front line duty, the chances are he was either taken sick or wounded around the time of 2nd Passchendaele.

[Gardenerbill]

A search on the CWGC website for men from 170th Brigade who died betwen the 25th and 31st of October 1917 shows they were buried in 7 cemeteries. The nearest to the battle field is Poelcapelle British, then Cement House and near Ypres, Solferino Farm, Bard Cottage and Bedofrd House, finally near Proven Dozinghem and Mendinghem.

I see from TEWs reply above that there were CCS at Mendinghem and at Dozinghem, Essex farm is close to Solferino and Bard Cottage but what about Poelcapelle and Cement house? Also are there surviving admission records for the Casualty Clearing Stations?

[sotonmate]

Gb

 

If you take the CCSs listed by TEW none of them have a surviving Admissions and Discharge Register (MH106 series) at Kew.

War Diaries (WO95) sometimes have a piecemeal approach to recording names of wounded and dead, but not very prevalent bearing in mind that they already had to complete the Admis. and Disch. Registers ! I see from my notes that CCS 12, 47, 61 and 64 do not show casualty names in WDs.

[TEW]

From memory 12 & 46 have admitted and discharged in table format giving total numbers. I can check the other diaries tomorrow. Unlikely to find an OR named.

TEW

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks again Sotonmate and TEW,

I think I will start with the 2/2 Wessex FA war diary, see if I can confirm that they took 170th Brigade casualties, where they were based at the end of October and to where they moved their casualties. New territory for me so should be interesting.

[TEW]

If I'm reading post#7 correctly you're saying that Solferino Cemetery is relevant because of it's location near Essex Farm ADS? The 5th Army diary says that 14 Corps MDS was based at Solferino Farm (sheet 28 B.23.a.1.4) so is an entity in its own right.

 

The other CCSs I put up in post#3 (excluding the Dozinghem and Mendinghem group) were located in Arneke, and Bandaghem

 

Below are two extracts for 26-27th Oct 1917. First one is 4 CCS, the second is 12 CCS.

 

TEW

 

 

 

 

[Gardenerbill]

My understandding is that many of the cemeteries in the Ypres area are close to the site of medical facilities, the prime example being Essex farm. So I was merely speculating that there might have been medical facilities close to the cemeteries where the DOWs are buried. Further analysis of the CWGC data does reveal a pattern:

 

26th October Cement house 22, Poelcapelle 9 Bard Cottage 5, Solforino 2, bedford House 2. (none at Mendinghem or Dozighem)

27th to 30th October Dozighem 15, Mendingham 1 and Wimereux 1 (none at Cement House, Poelcapelle, Bard Cottage or Bedford House)

 

This suggests to me (and I may be wrong) that most of 170 Bde casualties were initially evacuated to a facilities near Cement House and Poelcapelle, before being evacuated primarily to Dozinghem.

 

Thanks or posting the war diary pages they paint a grim picture.

Edited 29 March , 2017 by Gardenerbill

[Gardenerbill]

I now have the 2/2 Wessex Field Ambulance war diary and I have made a preliminary study of the entries for October 1917. Here is my transcription of the entry for the 24th October:

 

'Unit personnel moved by train to ELVERDINGHE advanced party of 98 O. Ranks having been sent away by motor ambulances at 6.30 a.m. Horse transport proceeded by road. Unit was re-inforced by 2 Officers and 94 O. Ranks of the 2/3rd Wessex Field Amb and 2 Officers and 75 O. Ranks of the 3/2 West Lancs Field Ambulance. Relief of the 104th Field Ambulance was completed by 5 p.m. the following posts having been taken over from Lt Col BIRD:

PELLISSIER FARM, FUSILIER HOUSE, GALLWITZ FARM, HANLEY, CEMENT HOUSE, PIG & WHISTLE, EAGLE TRENCH, LOUIS FARM, FERDAN HOSUE & OLGA HOUSE'

 

My assumption is that ELVERDINGHE was the site of the MDS (Main Dressing Station) it is located north west of Ypres near where the N333 meets the N8 following the Boezingestraat and the Langemarkseweg east through Pilkem you come to CEMENT HOUSE cemetery the site of the ADS (Advanced Dressing Station) further along the road is PIG & WHISTLE. Just east of Langemarck is EAGLE TRENCH. Near Poelcapelle and close to the battle site are LOUIS FARM, FERNDAN HOUSE  and OLGA HOUSE. 

 

I can't find PELLISIER FARM, HANLEY, or FUSILIER HOUSE, there is a Fusilier Farm to the south of PILKEM but I have discounted this as not in the right area.

[TEW]

57 Div. ADMS diary on 25/10/1917 has 2/2 Wessex FA's HQ = PELLISIER FARM at sheet 28 B.21.a.2.0

27/10/1917 ADMS visited CMDS at Solferino, HQ at PELLISIER FARM, ADSs at Fusilier and Cement House, relay posts at St, John and Corner House, bearer post at Pig & Whistle.

The ADMS also comments on an enquiry into the poor liaison between RAMC and Regimental bearers which lead to wounded lying out in front of the line and in the line.

There are totals of wounded admitted to the Solferino CMDS noon to noon;

25th-26th = ORs 99

26th-27th = ORs 302

27th-28th = ORs 277

28th-29th = ORs 131

 

There is also a 57 Div. RAMC Order for the Evacuation Scheme, dated 23/10/1917, see below NB Henley rather than Hanley and map ref for Fusilier is repeated later for Fusilier House.

 

 

104 Field Ambulance diary gives C.13.c.1.3 as location for Fusilier House, Olga house are the RAPs

 

Lots of mentions of all these places in this dairy and lots of appendices giving evacuation details and from a Medical Arrangements 10/10/1917;

I think ELVERDINGHE was more of an HQ area, at least I'm only seeing references to RAMC troops marching from Proven to ELVERDINGHE to PELLISIER FARM. And the 34th Div. HQ was at ELVERDINGHE. The designation of some of these locations changes during October 1917 so the CMDS at Solferino is referred to as a Corps ADS earlier and the CMDS was at Canada Farm which had formerly been a Corps Sick Collection post.

 

The 34th Div. ADMS dairy actually has two nice maps of all these places and the evacuation route back to the CCSs!

 

TEW

 

[Gardenerbill]

TEW,

I have found PELLISIER farm, can't fing HENLEY though what does C3.central mean? This is 28 NW C3

 

[Gardenerbill]

I am also struggling with FUSILIER Hse here is 28 NW C13 and C14 FUSILER Farm is in C14:

 

[TEW]

C 3 central would be under the 3. Literally dead centre of C3.

No guarantee all these places will be marked on maps.

TEW

[TEW]

Couple of points from post#14.

 

Louis Farm U.24.a.5.0 is on the adjoining sheet to the north, sheet 20SW

Eagle Trench RAP is also on sheet 20SW

Pig & Whistle is also on sheet 20SW

Would make sense that Cement House is also on sheet 20SW. It was described as being very cramped and there is a small hut/barn roughly at the map ref on 20SW.

 

Fusilier ADS AKA Fusilier House is marked on the 34th Div. ADMS map, being a bit pedantic but I'd actually give a map ref of B.24.b.8.9 rather than C.13.c.1.3 which puts it in the canal according to Trench Map Convertor.

 

TEW

[Gardenerbill]

Interestingly there is a topic in 'Cemeteries and Memorials' on Bard Cottage Cemetery and it mentions Bards Causeway marked on the ADS map. I thought C3 Central migtht mean the centre of C3. A site on the intersection of a,b,c,d, would be b.0.0. maybe? Anyway the field boundaries suggest there could be a building under the 3.

 

[Gardenerbill]

TEW, one more question the Eagle Trench aid post is it shown on the ADMS map? I assume it is at the north end of the trench  by the road near 6k on the 20.SW map.

[TEW]

That part of the map attached. Doesn't seem to clearly match up with other maps.

TEW

[Gardenerbill]

Comparing it to 20 SW U.23 it fits well enough to show that the Eagle Trench aid post is at the north end of the trench.

 

 

Do you know if there are any maps in the 57th Division ADMS ward diary? I will probably buy it.

 

 

[TEW]

In short no. There are several pages of appendices and Medical Arrangements.

 

50th Division diary has a map showing Cement House and Pig & Whistle. It would have shown Eagle RAP but there is a  hole in the map for that square. This also has a fair few appendices and Medical Arrangements for all the places named so far.

TEW

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks again TEW so the 34th Division map is probably the besrepresentation of the evacuation routes.