trajan Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Going through some German documents on bayonets and came across this rank/status - "Richtunteroffiziers der Batterien der Fußartillerie"... Haven't been able to discover what this chap did, so any suggestions or, even better! - knowledgeable replies? Thanks in advance! Julian PS: the document is from December 1917, confirming who was to wear 'kurzen Seitengewehr', which in this case is a term for any type of bayonet not the short 84/98, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Hello Julian! A Richtunteroffizier (pl. Richtunteroffiziere) was respnsible for the correct marching with the guns. He has to check the distance to the next gun. I don´t know, if he had a job during the war, normally he had to control the right positions during a parade or on march. Normally he was called "Richtungszugführer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 41 minutes ago, The Prussian said: Hello Julian! A Richtunteroffizier (pl. Richtunteroffiziere) was respnsible for the correct marching with the guns. He has to check the distance to the next gun. Many, many thanks Andy! The same document did have two others I was uncertain about: "Richtkreis-Unteroffiziere" - artillery spotter? and "Pferdehalter" - horse-harness specialist? Those aside, how would YOU translate "Trainmannschaften einschl. Aufsichtspersonal aller Formationen"? Thanks in advance! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Hello Julian! I couldn´t find anything special, but as far as I know, a Richt-Unteroffizier was a teacher for the Richtkanoniere. I haven´t heard the "Pferdehalter". To me it´s a man who cares for the horses... Trainmannschaften einschl. Aufsichtspersonal aller Formationen I´d say: Enlisted men from the Train including supervisory staff of all formations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Pferdehalter is literally Horse holder. See here https://books.google.de/books?id=-TFuDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT234&lpg=PT234&dq=british+cavalry+horse+holders&source=bl&ots=qnMFiew69T&sig=kUS5mlK-pCG_S0_MmAyeEIwk0x8&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju2P3Yl97SAhWNa5oKHXAaB5QQ6AEIOTAI#v=onepage&q=british cavalry horse holders&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2017 (edited) Thanks yet again Andy. 15 hours ago, The Prussian said: ... I couldn´t find anything special, but as far as I know, a Richt-Unteroffizier was a teacher for the Richtkanoniere. I haven´t heard the "Pferdehalter". ... To me it´s a man who cares for the horses... Trainmannschaften einschl. Aufsichtspersonal aller Formationen I´d say: Enlisted men from the Train including supervisory staff of all formations. 14 hours ago, charlie2 said: Pferdehalter is literally Horse holder. ... Thanks yet again Andy! I just did a bit of Googling and found the USA German Military Abbreviations of 1943 but which may be relevant to an extent (see: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/wwIIspec/number12.pdf ). It has on p. 154: Richtkreis, aiming circle (gunnery); on p. 155 and 157: Richtkreisunteroffiziere, "non-commissioned officer in charge of aiming circle" (I was thinking along the lines of this man being a forward artillery spotter). On p. 141, for Pferdehalter it simply says "groom" - but I am familiar with the concept of 'horse-holders from USA cavalry actions: they are the chaps who (as in your book reference) hold the horses while dismounted cavalrymen take up a firing line... The document I am working on is quite fun but badly reproduced in Ehle's Die Seitengewehre der Truppen zu Pferde, and is of interest to me partly because it confirms the wearing of bayonets by all members and all ranks of the army in 1917, but then goes on to discuss - this is 1917! - what sidearms will be worn once the war has ended! The text also includes what has to be my favourite (for the time being!) rank: the Scherenefernrohr-Unteroffiziere! Best, Julian Edited 18 March , 2017 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 18 March , 2017 Share Posted 18 March , 2017 (edited) Hello Julian! I checked the vocabulary of german military terms from 1918. Richtkreis: Director (gunnery) Richtkanonier: gun layer Richtkreisunteroffizier: not found Pferdehalter: not found I´d like to help you with your project, but I don´t have any knowledges about Seitengewehre. Maybe you join our forum? There we have some specialists. English language ain´t no problem. Your Scherenfernrohr-Unteroffizier has an e too much Here is a Scherenfernrohr-Offizier (the rank didn´t exist, but we could call him so...) Edited 18 March , 2017 by The Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2017 I think I'll have to get a German language spell-checker on this box... Silly mistakes like that... But, anyway, for those interested, that Scherenfernrohr-Unteroffizier is - as Andy nicely showed us - a man who operates a 'scissors' periscope... Andy, I'll look at the Feldgrau site - thanks for the repeated hint to do so! Now to 'celebrate' (well, remember is more accurate) Chanakkale day... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 18 March , 2017 Share Posted 18 March , 2017 A scissors-periscope. Is that word used in the english military language too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 19 March , 2017 I think the usual word in English is simply 'Trench periscope' or sometimes 'Trench binoculars', but personally prefer the more descriptive German term! Now, a question, would the wife of a Scherenfernrohr-Unteroffizier be Frau Scherenfernrohr-Unteroffizier ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 Yes, abnd if it would be a wif in that branch, she would be called "Scherenfernrohr-Unteroffizierin" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldrake Posted 18 March , 2019 Share Posted 18 March , 2019 I have a suspicion that he is the NCO who operates the director/ aiming circle that aligns the guns. In a WW2 or post war British battery he might be the technical assistant RA or survey NCO. The important thing is not that the guns are spaced correctly but are all pointing in the same direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 19 March , 2019 Share Posted 19 March , 2019 Sorry Julien, you always ask specific Qs which I can answer when I am away from your time zone. Right now in Costa Rica: A Richtunteroffizier is in charge of correctly aiming a gun in elevation and azimuth and to correct the gun placement after each shot fired. A Richtkreisunteroffizier indeed operates the aiming circle. A vital link for accurate firing. He determines North with all necessary calculations to eliminate magnetic deviation of the wandering North reference. This is mainly the prerequisite for accurate firing according to given map grids/geo-references. Also the Richtkreisunteroffizier marks "cut-out" settings when terrain-or infrastructure obstacles hinder the gun from firing to a certain direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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