Ww1 or 2 Italian bayonet

[shippingsteel]

The book by Cesare Calamandrei is a good reference and I have used it a lot to understand the variations in the Vetterli bayonets. Unfortunately it doesn't go into any detail on manufacturers and only has a few generic illustrations of the various markings. It is a laborious task to translate the sections of interest, but from what I have done it is good at establishing the points of difference between models but doesn't ever get into the detail about makers or markings.

And of the 375 pages in this book only a total of 7 (!) are devoted to the most commonly found M1891 the subject of this thread. But the book does cover every different modification and adaptation of every single bayonet the Italian military used in 175 years.! Regarding the TA marking for Torre Annunziata it does illustrate the Crown TA mark on the earlier Vetterli bayonets. So from that we can infer that the TA marking shown on the OP example is from the earlier period of production.   

[trajan]

Thanks SS. So, its sounds rather like the curate's egg.... I'll see if I can get it through ILL though.

 

On the crowned TA marking, does it actually say in the book that this is is 'early' rather than 'late'? Or is that your inference?

 

Also any chance of you providing a link to the Carcano rifle (Fucile Modello 1891) with the serial number you refer to in post 22?

[rhos]

Hi all. Thanks for everything so far. In regards to the TA markings with a crown mine hasn't got one. The last picture I sent was of very poor quality so I've made another that will hopefully shed more light to its age. Thanks again, Peter

[trajan]

Thanks - over to SS on this as he has a copy of the book!

[shippingsteel]

2 hours ago, rhos said:

In regards to the TA markings with a crown mine hasn't got one.

 

As you can see from the photo I took from the link that was previously posted - see here http://www.il91.it/baionette.html

It is the exact same marking as in the font used and positioning etc. The crown on yours has simply been worn off by wear.

The marking still indicates it was made by Torre Annunziata, and it is still the early period marking as seen late 19th century. 

[trajan]

On 3/22/2017 at 06:11, shippingsteel said:

... And in this case we are especially fortunate to have a serial number which is quite unique for this particular model of weapon, and which can be reliably dated to a Carcano rifle (Fucile Modello 1891) which was manufactured at the Roma arsenal in the latter part of 1918. So this piece of knowledge, when combined with the early style Torre Annunziata marking, suggests to me that this is a Great War period bayonet (or thereabouts) 

 

On 3/25/2017 at 02:08, shippingsteel said:

... Regarding the TA marking for Torre Annunziata it does illustrate the Crown TA mark on the earlier Vetterli bayonets. So from that we can infer that the TA marking shown on the OP example is from the earlier period of production.   

 

2 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

... The marking ... is still the early period marking as seen late 19th century. 

 

 

You could well be right SS on this being a WW1 period bayonet – but supporting evidence rather than the series of unsupported claims you present really don’t get us anywhere fast! So, as I have so often requested from you before - would you please substantiate your claims?

 

For what it is worth, a few minutes using google reveals that the longer version of the ‘TORRE ANNUNZATIA’ stamp is found on M.1871 bayonets (e.g., one serialled UY 24), but it is also found on M.1891 bayonets. Which may well indicate that that the short crowned ‘TA’ version is the later stamp, and so perhaps even post WW1! So, trumpeting forth statements such as this stamp is 'early style' or from the 'earlier period of production' or is 'early period' without providing supporting evidence really does not add to the discussion! 

 

Now, to the POF in me comes into play... Bearing in mind that Italian bayonets are most certainly not an area of especial interest to me! Yet, for what it is worth, as I understand it, then in the 19th century, the TA serial numbering system used single letters for the first 9999 products, and then double letters. And so, for example, the two latest double letter ones that I have found in a very limited search are: 1897, UY 4836, and 1898, VU 4211. 

 

Well, Rhos’ three-letter serial number (ORS 8079) certainly suggests a post 1898 date – assuming that once they got to ZZ 9999 they went on to three letters, starting with AAA 0001! But here we come to the nub of the matter (and my complaint with you!) regarding this particular piece: you don’t provide any support for your claim in post no. 22 that, "And in this case we are especially fortunate to have a serial number which is quite unique for this particular model of weapon, and which can be reliably dated to a Carcano rifle (Fucile Modello 1891) which was manufactured at the Roma arsenal in the latter part of 1918." Say's who?

 

Oh, and on which note, do please scan any problematic Italian passages and send them and I'll try to help!

 

Trajan

 

PS: Being somewhat of a saucier, I have not provided links supporting my statements here - but having given the serial numbers of the relevant rifles/bayonets, a quick google will reveal them... And yes, if needed, I can re-direct!

 

PPS: Rhos, I personally think odd's on that it is a WW1 one - so don't be fazed by a developing debate on your piece! It is all grist to the mill in the sense of trying to get some facts out of SS as opposed to his presenting of unsubstantiated claims (akin to 'Collector's beliefs' - see e.g., Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and Their Values (2007), p. 29).

[Kva]

I was told this was French but looking at this it might be Italian 

[trajan]

Certainly Italian! But not certain of the marking - perhaps me old mate SS or somebody else more knowledgeable will chip in sooner than I can research it!

[Kva]

Thanks

[MikeyH]

M1891 Italian Carcano bayonet, difficult to date in use in both world wars.

Made at the Terni arsenal.

 

Mike.

[trajan]

1 hour ago, MikeyH said:

M1891 Italian Carcano bayonet, difficult to date in use in both world wars.

Made at the Terni arsenal.

 

Mike.

 

Cheers Mike! I guess the only possible way of dating it might be the serial number?

[MikeyH]

5 hours ago, trajan said:

 

Cheers Mike! I guess the only possible way of dating it might be the serial number?

 

That's a possibility............

My one and only Italian bayonet is a much scarcer M1891TS, this bears the serial number BB9350.

If anyone has any knowledge of how to decipher these numbers............

 

Mike.

[trajan]

A very rough guess at the dates of these might be possible using serial number prefixes  - IF we knew production figures of the rifle and size of the Italian army pre WW1, plus increases in size during WW1! 

 

E.g., IIRC, German bayonet serials in the 3R for the individual makers go up on an annual basis from single letters to first 9999, i.e., A 0001 - A 9999, then B 0001 - B 9999, then double letters, so AA 0001 - AA 9999, BB 0001 - BB 9999, etc.

 

It seems that the Italians used a similar but not identical system - and I am surprised nobody over there has tried to work this out... 

 

Trajan

[MikeyH]

Julian,

 

The M1891TS (Truppe Speciali) is unique, as the press catch is located to the REAR of the pommel

and a LATERAL mortise slot is used.

They were introduced in 1900 I think, The World Bayonets website, has an example numbered

AS5192 which they date as 1917, based on the matching carbine number.  Have found another one on line with the number Q7927

this undated.

 

Mike.

Edited 21 October , 2018 by MikeyH

[Kva]

I think what I’m understanding from this it is very difficult to date these. Is it easier to date the rifle with the same number?

Edited 22 October , 2018 by Kva
Add

[MikeyH]

Kva,

 

Each rifle or carbine, would have been originally issued with a bayonet which carried a matching number.

Dating Italian bayonets is difficult, due to a lack of data.  We need a knowledgeable Italian forum member!

 

Mike.

 

Edited 22 October , 2018 by MikeyH

[Kva]

Mikeyh

👍

Edited 22 October , 2018 by Kva