rhos Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Can someone please tell me what I've purchased in regards to is it a ww1 or ww2 Italian Carcano bayonet. It was advertised as a ww1 german mauser bayonet at the auction but I was pretty sure it wasn't. I've been trying to find out when it was made but no luck so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 (edited) Am no expert in Italian bayonets, it is an M1891, first issued in that year and used in both world wars. The scabbard is of the original type, the all steel model either fluted or plain being issued later. Think I am correct in saying that the blue/grey frog also saw service in both wars. Mike. Edited 16 March , 2017 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Like MickeyH, I am not an Italian bayonet afficionado.... But we need to see the ricasso markings and maker markings really to try and narrow the date down! Even so it looks to be a nice find with that scabbard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhos Posted 16 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Thanks for the the quick response guy's. The only markings on the bayonet that I can see are the letters TA on the bottom of the blade and the letters and numbers ORS 8079. I hope that is of some help to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhos Posted 16 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Just spotted this tiny mark on brass top of the scabbard it looks like vv under the magnifier. Sorry for the awfull pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Think that TA is 'Torino Arsenal' (Turin). Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 These M1891 bayonets are notoriously difficult to put a date on as the early types were not date marked and the type continued to be produced right through to WW2. That being said, your example does show some promise as being of WW1 vintage, as it comes with the early type leather scabbard and frog. We need to firstly identify the manufacturer and then try to cross-reference the serial number to a rifle to help establish a date range. The M1891 rifles were actually serial numbered AND date marked so that helps. The TA marking that you found on the bottom of the ricasso tells us who the manufacturer was, and it was one of the earlier period Italian arsenals in Torre Annunziata, so that adds support to an earlier date for the bayonet. So now we just need to search for a corresponding serial number. Hopefully there is a matching rifle out there on the net with a similar number.! Another way of determining if you have an earlier bayonet is to check for the shape of the press catch. There is some variation in these and I have a theory that the earlier ones had a different shape, so if you could take a photo of yours on the back of the pommel that may be of assistance. I have added a photo below of my M1891 set for comparison ... I believe it to be of the WW1 era or earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 16 hours ago, rhos said: Can someone please tell me what I've purchased in regards to is it a ww1 or ww2 Italian Carcano bayonet. It was advertised as a ww1 german mauser bayonet at the auction but I was pretty sure it wasn't. I've been trying to find out when it was made but no luck so far. Rhos, have a careful look at the back of the scabbard as there may be a maker's mark and year date alongside the seam. 7 hours ago, shippingsteel said: ... That being said, your example does show some promise as being of WW1 vintage, as it comes with the early type leather scabbard and frog. ... Another way of determining if you have an earlier bayonet is to check for the shape of the press catch. There is some variation in these and I have a theory that the earlier ones had a different shape, SS, you don't seem to be aware that full length leather scabbards were still being made in the 1930's and 1940's by A.R.E.T and GNUTTI, even with brass lockets and chapes - see for example http://www.ebay.it/itm/FODERO-IN-CUOIO-PER-BAIONETTA-91-1891-ARET-ACCESSORIO-MVSN-WW2-2GM-REI-CARCANO-/361887603958?hash=item54422e9cf6:g:u7gAAOSw9GhYhi1d And as for frogs... Hmmm... That aside, it will be interesting to see if your theory on the press catch shape on these M.1891's suggesting an 'early' or 'late' date holds any water, given the lack of date marks on most of these bayonets, and, also, given the known number of makers - seven or more - each of which might have varied the specifications a tad! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhos Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Hi all, can't find any markings on the leather only what looks like vv? Stamped the brass on top of the scabbard. Here's some pictures of the pummel. Many thanks, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Trajan, You should get yourself one it would look good in the collection. Hello mate, I'm back! Just purchased a new item, I'll post a picture when it arrives. Rod Illegitimus nil Carborundum est. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 27 minutes ago, rhos said: Hi all, can't find any markings on the leather only what looks like vv? ... I'll see if I can find out more - but Italian bayonets are not my field of experience! It has been used as a hammer by the look of things... It'll be interesting to see what SS has to say on the press stud - I only have a shortened one of these (courtesy of Mr.Ogilwy below!) and that has a smaller 'button', and so perhaps it is the size of these he is referring to? 9 minutes ago, Ogilwy said: Just purchased a new item, I'll post a picture when it arrives. Cheers Rod - good to see you back and looking forward to what you are going to show us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Trajan, Just picked up some other kit, a not a bayonet but how about a Becks Periscope from 1917 with about 90% original green paint still on it! Going for sale again now! Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 March , 2017 Share Posted 18 March , 2017 Rhos, I had a look at some of the (very few) useful Italian and other sites on the web re: this make of M.1891, and one suggested that these Torre Annunziata bayonets were mainly pre-WW1 products - but then noted how Torre Annunziata was active again in WW2... I haven't been able to find if there any reliable books on Italian bayonets which might help so a bit of a dead-end there. On the other hand, just to make the point that these M.91 continued to be made in their original long form into WW2, have a look at: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30003831 This is a ROCCA product dated as made in1941, in a metal scabbard, but as I said earlier, leather ones were also around in WW2. Your best bet on dating your one is if somebody knows exactly when Torre Annunziata was producing the M.1891 - that is to say, is it fact or rumour that they were made in WW1 only. I have a gut feeling that SS's pommel press-stud analysis will not help much, although it might do if the WW2-made ones (like the ROCCA one above) are really very different. So, SS, let's see what you can come up with! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gew88/05 Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 If made by Torre Annunziata, the bayonet should be stamped "Torre Annunziata" or with a "Crowned TA" . This is according to the section Baionette at: http://www.il91.it/il91.html The above link takes you a well done Italian site on Italian military Carcanos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 One site I had found was the parallel site to that - http://www.il91.it/baionette.html It looks to be in the OP second photograph a crowned TA one. Changes in maker's stamps like that - one reading Torre Annunziata in full, the other the crowned TA - would, to my mind, indicate different dates of manufacture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 20 March , 2017 Share Posted 20 March , 2017 (edited) I have an M1891TS 'Truppe Speciali', the crossguard is stamped BB9350 and the ricasso has an extremely small oval 2 letter stamp, the first letter seems to be G or possibly C, the second letter even more unclear, but could be either G,C or S. Anyone any ideas? Mike. Edited 21 October , 2018 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 March , 2017 Share Posted 20 March , 2017 6 minutes ago, MikeyH said: I have an M1891TS 'Truppe Speciali', the crossguard is stamped BB9550 and the ricasso has an extremely small oval 2 letter stamp, the first letter seems to be G or possibly C, the second letter even more unclear, but could be either G,C or S. Anyone any ideas? Mike. Honestly not my field, and a photo would help, but a guess - C.G(nutti)? No, I haven't checked the web or anywhere - the 'alert' with your message came through just as I was leaving the 'box' to help the boys with homework! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 20 March , 2017 Share Posted 20 March , 2017 (edited) Julian, Yes, it could be C.G. many thanks. Would be difficult get a decent photo, with my very basic camera. Mike. edit:- have found an internet listing for Carlo Gnutti, also maker of ball and roller bearings. I did look at the site linked to your #15, but didn't pick up on this maker. Edited 20 March , 2017 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 March , 2017 Share Posted 21 March , 2017 16 hours ago, MikeyH said: ... have found an internet listing for Carlo Gnutti, also maker of ball and roller bearings. I did look at the site linked to your #15, but didn't pick up on this maker. Hi Mike, http://www.il91.it/baionette.html shows two GNUTTI markings, one clearly and spelt out, the other not so clearly but could be like yours. This site: http://www.exordinanza.net/schede/BAIO/Baio_Carcano.htm seems to imply that in WW2-made versions, the GNUTTI stamp is on the crossguard, and here is such an example, the implication being that ricasso-stamped versions are pre-WW2, but that's just my opinion! Note, though, that during what was a limited search, the ricasso-marked ones have the name in full as in the second photograph. So, although I really know very little about these Italian ones, it looks as if yours is pre-WW2. Julian NOTE: Photographs from web auction sites shown here as 'Fair use'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 21 March , 2017 Share Posted 21 March , 2017 (edited) Julian, Again, many thanks. The oval CG stamping on the ricasso on my TS example is only about 3mm wide, near the crossguard and very faint. Do not think that the 'Truppe Speciali' variants introduced in 1897 were made much later than WW1, but could be wrong! We visited last year a private military museum in the Venteto region of Italy and they did not have an example. Mike. Edited 21 March , 2017 by MikeyH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 March , 2017 Share Posted 21 March , 2017 3 hours ago, MikeyH said: ... Do not think that the 'Truppe Speciali' variants introduced in 1897 were made much later than WW1, but could be wrong! ... We visited last year a private military museum in the Venteto region of Italy and they did not have an example. I honestly don't know anything about these ones - and my copy of Kiesling on bayonets is not too hand right now (not that he is 100% reliable!). So I'll go with you here! I was surprised, though, to discover that there does not seem to be any reliable literature on Italian bayonets. If nothing else such a book might/would solve this one - and it might/would also be useful possibly in testing SS's hypothesis on dating these M.1891's by the bayonet catches... On which note he seems to have gone quiet on the matter, but I suspect he was thinking of variations in press-stud sizes. As for museums lacking bayonet examples, well, I am in the position of having one example each of a bayonet type not represented in either of their respective countries national museums...!!! I need to get them out!!! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 March , 2017 Share Posted 22 March , 2017 On 17/03/2017 at 03:51, rhos said: The only markings on the bayonet that I can see are the letters TA on the bottom of the blade and the letters and numbers ORS 8079. I hope that is of some help to you. On 17/03/2017 at 08:33, shippingsteel said: We need to firstly identify the manufacturer and then try to cross-reference the serial number to a rifle to help establish a date range. The M1891 rifles were actually serial numbered AND date marked so that helps. The TA marking that you found on the bottom of the ricasso tells us who the manufacturer was, and it was one of the earlier period Italian arsenals in Torre Annunziata, so that adds support to an earlier date for the bayonet. So now we just need to search for a corresponding serial number. While it is not possible to accurately date the manufacture of this bayonet, it is very much possible to contrive a date range for the rifle that it was matched to, simply by researching the serial number that is stamped across the guard. This then provides a "de-facto" date range for the period in which the bayonet was most likely used. And in this case we are especially fortunate to have a serial number which is quite unique for this particular model of weapon, and which can be reliably dated to a Carcano rifle (Fucile Modello 1891) which was manufactured at the Roma arsenal in the latter part of 1918. So this piece of knowledge, when combined with the early style Torre Annunziata marking, suggests to me that this is a Great War period bayonet (or thereabouts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 March , 2017 Share Posted 22 March , 2017 30 minutes ago, shippingsteel said: ... And in this case we are especially fortunate to have a serial number which is quite unique for this particular model of weapon, and which can be reliably dated to a Carcano rifle (Fucile Modello 1891) which was manufactured at the Roma arsenal in the latter part of 1918. So this piece of knowledge, when combined with the early style Torre Annunziata marking, suggests to me that this is a Great War period bayonet (or thereabouts) Hi SS, Interesting claim! Now, you will see how in my posts 8, 13, and 19, that I have provided supporting evidence as links or photographs re: my remarks on the date of these M.1891 bayonets and their scabbards. So, just to be sure, any chance of you providing some supporting evidence for your statement that the serial number on Rhos' bayonet can be linked to a rifle dated to the latter part of 1918? Oh, and any progress on your theory that the shape of the M.1891 bayonet catches might serve as a rough dating feature? Best wishes - and thanks in advance for any information you provide! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 On 3/22/2017 at 00:31, trajan said: was surprised, though, to discover that there does not seem to be any reliable literature on Italian bayonets. If nothing else such a book might/would solve this one - and it might/would also be useful possibly in testing SS's hypothesis on dating these M.1891's by the bayonet catches... On which note he seems to have gone quiet on the matter, but I suspect he was thinking of variations in press-stud sizes. see Cesare Calamandrei "Baionette Italiane 1814-1991" published 1992 by Editoriale Olimpia of Florence. No ISBN unfortunately. Well illustrated with good drawings and photographs, about 400 pages. Of course it is in Italian. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 24 March , 2017 Share Posted 24 March , 2017 (edited) Grazie molto! I guessed that there had to be one but couldn't find anything on Google.ita... Seems that the nearest copy to me (according to World Cat) is in Rome... Does it have anything on the TA markings and/or production? Julian Edited 24 March , 2017 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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