grammar Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Hi After any info on the circumstances of a crash / accident on 16 December 1918 that killed F/Lt. Thomas Burns, 44 squadron. Thanks in advance Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Books by a local historian, John Barfoot should answer the questions. See if I can look it up later for you- Hainault is in Redbridge and Mr. Barfoot has written a lot on WW1 airfields locally-mostly Fairlop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Hi Below are a couple of links but they show the crash as " not apparent ". Steve http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/burns-t.r.r.-thomas-roland-roth http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/burns-t.r.r.-thomas-rowland-roth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammar Posted 16 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Many thanks to you both. I'll check those links Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 16 March , 2017 Share Posted 16 March , 2017 Andrew, Thomas Roland (not Rowland as in one of the Hendon records mentioned above) Roth Burns was a Lieutenant, not Flight Lieutenant at time of death, May I ask what your particular interest is in this New Zealand airman? Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammar Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Thanks Errol I have an interest in him through looking at New Zealanders on Gallipoli with the NZEF. Seemed a rare man and his death following the Armistice so tragic. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 It's odd that the Casualty Card has the unfortunate man being killed in Camel B6326, an aeroplane from No 54 Squadron lost on 21 June 1918, when Lt W K Wilson was captured after combat with Jasta 51. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammar Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Thanks Gareth - that really is odd! Would I be right to assume a clerical error ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 (edited) He and his (correct) Camel are in my book, The Sky Their Battlefield II - he crashed and was killed in Camel serial F6326 on 16th December - in my Accidents Addendum. My coverage of details of accidents on various fronts runs on until May 1919. Other details are sadly a bit sparse. Local research might yield more. Does that help? Regards, Trevor Edited 17 March , 2017 by fetubi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 11 hours ago, grammar said: Thanks Gareth - that really is odd! Would I be right to assume a clerical error ? Indeed. Thanks to Trevor's research, we have the answer. Again oddly, The Camel File doesn't include the crash; the Camel's service with No 151 Squadron is listed, but nothing after the Armistice. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammar Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Thanks Trevor and Gareth. Greatly appreciated and helps a lot Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgun1918 Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 I suppose it doesn't help that there were two Camels bearing the serial F6326; the first was a rebuild of Camel D8153, subsequently renumbered H6997 in August 1918, the second being the machine built by Boulton & Paul Ltd and in which Lt Burns was killed. Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammar Posted 17 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2017 Hi Graeme Now that really does throw the cat among the pigeons for the amateur! Many thanks - I have very limited knowledge of the air war and this is fascinating. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 17 March , 2017 Share Posted 17 March , 2017 15 hours ago, grammar said: Thanks Errol I have an interest in him through looking at New Zealanders on Gallipoli with the NZEF. Seemed a rare man and his death following the Armistice so tragic. Andrew Andrew, There are about two dozen ex-Gallipoli men featured in my For Your Tomorrow - A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915 (Volume Three: Biographies & Appendices), most were NZEF during that campaign. Fate info for each appears in Vol One. Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammar Posted 18 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2017 (edited) Thanks Errol I've just ordered both volumes on line form a couple of shops. Looking forward to learning more. Andrew Edited 18 March , 2017 by grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 18 March , 2017 Share Posted 18 March , 2017 Andrew, Unfortunately, The 'Fates' Vols One and Two have been out of print for a good number of years now (they were published in 1998 and 1999) but biographical Vol Three is still available in soft cover (and even a few hardcovers left). You can contact me directly at errol.martyn@xtra.co.nz for a copy if you like. Vols One and Two occasionally appear on the likes of New Zealand's TradeMe. Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 (edited) On 18/03/2017 at 07:32, topgun1918 said: I suppose it doesn't help that there were two Camels bearing the serial F6326; the first was a rebuild of Camel D8153, subsequently renumbered H6997 in August 1918, the second being the machine built by Boulton & Paul Ltd and in which Lt Burns was killed. Graeme Graeme I have long nurtured a theory that there was a conspiracy among Great War airmen to make things confusing for latter-day historians and enthusiasts. It is often apparent in photographs, taken so that the aeroplane serial number is obscured by a wing or the tail, or with someone standing in front of at least part of the number. In the same spirit, the letter prefix of a serial number is frequently omitted from log books and other documents. Here we have two aeroplanes with the same serial! I suspect that more than one person might have said "This will confuse them in a century's time!" On the other hand, they had a war to fight, and the bureaucratic paperwork might have seemed rather inconsequential. Regards Gareth Edited 19 March , 2017 by Dolphin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 Gareth, I couldn't agree more! A friend recently sent me this (doubtless important and rare) RFC photo from 1914. I just couldn't resist it any longer - had to get Photoshopping! Regards, Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgun1918 Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 It's a conspiracy! Everyone's at it! Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Martyn Posted 2 December , 2018 Share Posted 2 December , 2018 On 18/03/2017 at 04:01, fetubi said: He and his (correct) Camel are in my book, The Sky Their Battlefield II - he crashed and was killed in Camel serial F6326 on 16th December - in my Accidents Addendum. My coverage of details of accidents on various fronts runs on until May 1919. Other details are sadly a bit sparse. Local research might yield more. Does that help? Regards, Trevor Burns was serving with 44 Sqn based at Hainault Farm but according to death notices placed by family at the time in at least two New Zealand newspapers he was killed at North Weald. In July 1919 the squadron moved from Hainault to North Weald Basset, as a cadre, so there may have been an earlier connection between HF and NW? I note that the casualty card gives Hainault Farm as the reporting place but under 'Where occurred' simply states 'Home.' I don't think there can be much doubt that Burns was killed at North Weald rather than Hainault Farm. Errol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickdavis Posted 3 December , 2018 Share Posted 3 December , 2018 Hainault Farm and North Weald Bassett are about 5 miles apart and so 44 Sqn machines would inevitably overfly or land at that station. I would doubt very much whether Burns' machine was F6326. The history of that B&P built Camel is well documented, from its acceptance flight at Norwich by Lt P. Wilson through its service with 54 Sqn to its delivery to 151 Sqn, which acted as Demobilisation Squadron to which other units sent there machines for reduction to produce. There's even a photo of it in 54 Sqn service, at Merchin, marked as a/c 19 (so presumably C Flt) and carrying the squadron's end of war marking of a letter N on the rear fuselage. There's no chance that it could have returned to the UK for use by 44 Sqn - I can't find any other example of a Camel returning from the BEF for use by 6 Brigade. As for the other 'F6326', it was initially reconstructed with a Clerget engine but re-built as H6997 before issue from 1 ASD and fitted with a BR1 engine before issue to 209 Sqn. The engine details on the Casualty Card held by the RAFM are undoubtedly correct. Several engines in the batch 102020-102030 were factory fitted to Camels in the D6401-D6700 batch but, of course, engine changes could and did take place. This screen plays havoc with my serial listings done in MS Word, but the following should help disprove the notion that Burns was in F6326 F6326 Le Rhone 9J. Delivered w/e 14.9.1918. 3 (Norwich) AAP and tested 12.9.1918 (2Lt P. Wilson, ‘Missing. 3 valves blowing’). 1 ASD Reception Park by 15.9.1918 (engine 8461). 1 AIS ex 1 ASD 16.9.1918. 54 Sqn dd ex 1 AIS 13.10.1918, marked both as a/c 19 and unit marking N, with vict 28.10.1918 (Lt J.C. Green destroyed a Fokker D.VII E of Bac-St-Maur at 10.40, shared H7283). 151 (Demobilisation) Sqn ex 54 Sqn 23.1.1919. This serial also applied, incorrectly, to 1 ASD reconstruction of Camel D8153. Le Rhone 9J. 44 Sqn and wrecked 16.12.1918 (Lt T.R.R. Burns KIFA, no apparent cause – engine 102026/WD45524). 1487, 1499. F6326 Clerget 9Bf. 1 ASD Repair Park and taken on BEF charge as F6326 10.8.1918, on reconstruction from D8153 (engine R1935L), serial comprised that of a production Boulton & Paul machine so airframe re-allotted new serial H6997 9.1918 and re-fitted with BR1 engine. H6997 Initially Clerget 9Bf. 1 ASD Repair Park and taken on BEF charge 10.8.1918 as F6326, on reconstruction from D8153 (Clerget 9 Bf engine R1935L), serial comprised that of a production Boulton & Paul machine, so airframe re-allotted new serial H6997 9.1918 reported as in need of re-build 23.9.1918 and reconstructed and with BR1 engine. 209 Sqn dd ex 6 AIS 23.11.1918 (engine 2715), marked as a/c C, named Dimps for use by Lt Colonel S. Smith and with unit at Aerial Ranges 14.1.1919 until 21.1.1919. 203 (Demobilisation) Sqn ex 209 Sqn and dismantled by 9.2.1919. 0876. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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