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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Yataghan bayonet


Khaki

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Found this one in local gun shop, I was in a hurry so said I would take it and put a small deposit on it, I don't think it is French, the only markings that I could see were a 'V' prefixed six digit serial number on the guard. It doesn't have any spine marking, maybe Egyptian? Does anyone recognize the grip style or the rivets etc. It has a good scabbard with it also serial numbered.

khaki

 

 

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Edited by Khaki
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Upon first glance it certainly looks like a French Gras bayonet. This may be a stretch, but it could be an Egyptian bayonet for the Martini- Henry rifles they used as the Egyptian Expeditionary Force.  

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A Chassepot Bayonet, I reckon.

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Thanks OD191 and Tom,for the replies,

Its definitely not a Gras, they had a wooden grip and an epee' style blade, however your thoughts as an Egyptian yataghan may be correct and that is what I have been thinking, the Egyptian examples I have researched seem to all have Arabic markings on the ricasso,this one does not. I am not an expert on Yataghan's by any means but I do know that almost every nation had them with minor variations from the 1840's through to the GW, a variation was also used in our Civil War by I believe the Zouaves. I also believe that the number of ribs on the grips and rivets and their placement is another method of determining manufacturer or at least country of origin. I should be able to complete the sale and bring it home for study in the next day or so and after a clean a tape measure may assist.

thanks again

khaki

 

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Hi khaki,

 

A U or V prefix on the serial number usually equals Cahen-Lyon contract examples from 1867 and 1868. However, I am amazed at how many French bayonets were re-serialled, be interesting to see if the number looks unaltered.

 

Cheers,

Tony

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Thanks Tony,

 

Would it be fair to then describe this bayonet as a German made French bayonet, or is it a German made yataghan model destined for export to ?????????????

 

khaki

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It does appear to be the Mle1866 Chassepot bayonet. The wire hanger loop on the scabbard seems to have been removed.? You may need to find more markings to help identify country of manufacture, although the serial number does suggest French usage. When you get a tape onto it the dimensions should be, blade length 575mm, overall length 700mm, with MRD of 17.5mm

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Well spotted SS, yes the frog loop is missing/removed, the scabbard is free from dents and is just dirty as is the brass grip, the blade is pretty clean and free from rust or nicks, the whole thing should clean up pretty well. The serial number is clear, I will probably pick up the yataghan tomorrow , I will see what else can be revealed after cleaning and perhaps post a better photograph.

thanks for your response,

khaki

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Khaki,

The French Mdle 1866 Chassepot bayonet has an inscription on the spine which names the arsenal & date of manufacture in very elaborate script---so I think not that.**

I thought that it might be the Belgian equivalent, the Terssen bayonet, so checked mine as a comparator.

Both have 15 ribs on the grip, but my Terssen has the rivet on the eighth rather than the thirteenth rib like yours---so not a Terssen.

It will be interesting to see if any markings in the mortise slot and the shape of the fuller end at the cross-guard.

Regards,

JMB

**Although those contracted to non-French militaries would not probably be inscribed.

Edited by JMB1943
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After a very light oiling, the 'V' in a circle on the ricasso is the only additional control mark that I can see.

 

0315171320.jpg

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Edited by Khaki
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You will probably need to remove more of the gunk to check for more markings. Also look along the quillon for inspection proof marks. The serial looks to be perfectly standard for French usage, does the serial on the scabbard match.? How about the measurements, they should be a match for the Mle1866.

What is shown on the right ricasso, it is too blurry to tell.? Is that another V marking as well.? You most likely have a foreign produced contractor blade that was sub-contracted through Cahen & Lyon of Paris (as suggested by Tony) and as indicated by the V prefix serial number.

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The number of makers for the 1866 bayonets is huge.  Pretty much anything goes.  I have an unmarked pair with 16 (not typical 15) grip ridges.

 

Old smithy's dedicated site on these is quite comprehensive.

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I totally agree with you guys, and I will continue with the cleaning, the gun dealer had a bunch of these on the floor and I got the pick condition wise, they all had scabbards one was a German style (scabbard) and the other yataghan was a legit French model with the manufacturer etc writing on the spine. They were all inexpensive so I may go back and grab a couple more.

 

khaki

Edited by Khaki
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Ah-ha! A post of mine yesterday evidently got lost in the mysterious 'Missing posts' episode (see the "Disruption of service- some posts lost" announcement)!

 

In that lost post I was speculating if the 'V' mark might mean this was one of the Potts & Hunt made Chassepot, which - if I recall correctly - were for the French Navy. Perhaps Tony MSDT or NWhite might comment?...

Edited by trajan
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Final, more aggressive cleaning has revealed another small 'V' halfway along the curve of the quillion, that is the last,  the scabbard serial does not match, the only markings apart from the serial number are the V stamps on quillion, ricasso both sides, and of course the serial number prefix on the guard. So I guess we have so far,

a German manufactured chassepot yataghan exported to France, probably used in the FP war and maybe recaptured ? by Prussia. There is no renumbering or German reissue marks. I will just throw it up on the wall with the other stuff.

khaki

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The 'V' mark is thought by some to be a 'forging' mark - see. e.g., http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?576785-Mark-%ABC-amp-G%BB-on-the-bayonet-Chassepot-Who-the-producer posts 8 and 9.

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Thanks but couldn't manage to access the gunboards site you referred to, he may be correct in that's it a forging mark, but why would it be in so many different places.?

 

khaki

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8 hours ago, Khaki said:

Thanks but couldn't manage to access the gunboards site you referred to, he may be correct in that's it a forging mark, but why would it be in so many different places.?

 

khaki

 

I'll see if I can download and post here later - but the 'V' mark referred to there was on the ricasso (sorry, I should have been clearer). The 'V' for the serial is something else, yes.

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OK, the attached are all from that web-site, different examples, all with a 'V' mark on the ricasso, and reproduced here for the sake of discussion (so, 'fair use' is claimed!).

 

One of the posts on that thread led me to: http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/fusil d'infanterie Mle 1866.html where reference is made to Chasspot bayonets being made in Vienna (Austria) as part of the Cahen-Lyon contract  (as Tony MSDT, post no.5).

 

Julian

V.JPG

V marked A.jpg

SAM_0634.JPG

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