Guest Posted 5 August , 2018 Share Posted 5 August , 2018 You misunderstand. I did not say that I would be unwilling to discuss. What I did say was that I was unwilling to continue ON THIS FORUM as it is veering towards racism-and I am not willing to respond in similar styles of language to those used by yourself. 35 minutes ago, Gunga Din said: Empirical Do you mean "imperial" ? I do not recognize the use of the word "Empirical" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunga Din Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 You misunderstand. I did not say that I would be unwilling to discuss. What I did say was that I was unwilling to continue ON THIS FORUM as it is veering towards racism-and I am not willing to respond in similar styles of language to those used by yourself. Can I assume you have not read the book? I am really trying to discover anyone who has read it and has any comments on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 Perhaps just me; different racial views certainly, but I detect no racism in this thread or in comments made. Nevertheless, in view of the direction of travel, I bow out gracefully having simply expressed an early opinion of a largely worthwhile book. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 Gunga Din: I have a deal of sympathy for what you say, but could I ask a question? You state that Omissi's analysis is '... increasingly being exposed as flawed ...' I confess to not having seen such exposure and am intrigued to read more. Can you direct me to this analysis, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunga Din Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said: Gunga Din: I have a deal of sympathy for what you say, but could I ask a question? You state that Omissi's analysis is '... increasingly being exposed as flawed ...' I confess to not having seen such exposure and am intrigued to read more. Can you direct me to this analysis, please? As one example, Morton-Jack in his "The Indian Army on the Western Front" (Cambridge University Press 2014) quotes Omissi (and other authors - including Terrine, Gardner, Erickson, Greenhut, Yong, Callahan) who have a negative view of the performance of the Indian Corps in France. Omissi describes the IEFA as 'poor', in his "The Sepoy and the Raj - The Indian Army 1860-1940" (Macmillan 1994) something that Morton Jack disagrees with and provides some detailed counter-arguments. Omissi (page 38) "Furthermore the poor performance of the Indian Infantry on the Western Front, when even Gurkhas ran away, had led some Officers to question the assumptions of martial-race theory". Edit. On Page 14 Morton Jack highlights that Omissi and and Beckett argue that "Indian units were unfamiliar with these [new rifles] and unsure how to use them" . The reference is Omissi's Indian Voices of the Great War (1999) page 2 and beckett's Ypres (2004) page.35. Omissi is in good company. 20 years separates Morton-Jack and Omissi's books on the Indian Army and while Omissi is essential reading, some of his analysis has been challenged in more recent years. Again, Morton Jack (page 25) quotes Omissi's "India and the Western Front" view that the reason for the withdrawal of the IEF-A from France was due to logistics. This view seems to ignore the fact that the Indian Cavalry remained in France until early 1918, so Omissi's analysis is again oversimplified. Corrigan (2006) also disagrees with some of Omissi's arguments but the poor referencing makes it more difficult to relocate. I hope that helps. On topic: If anyone has read "The Indian Army in the First World War" I would be interested in their view. Only one review on Anazon.co.uk and none on Amazon.in. GD Edited 6 August , 2018 by Gunga Din Gardner for Garner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 Thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Steven Broomfield said: Thanks for that. He's a better man than you etc Edited 6 August , 2018 by IPT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 4 hours ago, Gunga Din said: Can I assume you have not read the book? Which one? We started with the Helion book-which I have had a go at- but you went full tilt into an assault on the Official History. Reviews on Amazon? I prefer the reviews I read to be "peer reviewed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunga Din Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 Which one? The subject of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 18 minutes ago, Gunga Din said: The subject of this thread. But you then went off on a rant about the OH. Make up your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunga Din Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 But you then went off on a rant about the OH. Make up your mind. Forget it. It is not important. I was just answering your question. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 OK- an observation - I enjoyed the essays-I can't say I read them all thoroughly- I was looking in the first place for Adam Prime's essay on the Aden Campaign of 1915, which is a mystery to me and I have to cover as some of my local casualties were involved- the HAC was sent over from the Canal Zone to Aden to deal. By itself, it is a classic British imperial police action but greatly ignored when compared with, say, the classic run of "Little Wars" so well covered in "Frontier and Overseas Expeditions from India" for a previous age. Wasn't that bothered with the cavalry stuff- leave that to Mr. Broomfield. One aspect of the service of "Indian" (Hope you don't mind if I use a word that is a British construct) troops is the contribution made by the native states, which I think continues to be neglected even by the slender standards of how well the Indian Army as such has been studied. Yes, OK to have the occasional picture of a portly Rajah/Maharajah in British officer uniform but the natives states and the war is a land of darkness for me. Whatever the longer term agendas of scholarship of the Indian Army-whether Indocentric, Anglocentric, flag-wagging imperial or "revisionsist"- the questions about the Indian Army of the Raj become even more perplexing when looking at the native states. Questions of loyalty. motive, nationalism, ethnicity, etc. become all the more interesting when applied to the native states. Just wish there was more out there about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 GUEST, I am sure this will be of interest to you, when it is published. http://www.helion.co.uk/browse-title-series-more/war-military-culture-in-south-asia-1757-1947/books-in-series/aerial-operations-in-the-revolutions-of-1922-and-1947-in-paraquay-the-first-dogfights-in-south-america-24036.html Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulgranger Posted 6 August , 2018 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2018 George Morton-Jack is revisiting the experience of the Indian Army later in the year https://www.amazon.co.uk/Indian-Empire-At-War-Victory-ebook/dp/B01MSCVP0V/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1533555910&sr=1-1&keywords=george+morton-jack . This is listed twice on Amazon, this version due out next month, a somewhat different title and cover due out in December. They appear to be the same book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 On 06/08/2018 at 12:41, alf mcm said: I am sure this will be of interest to you, when it is published. http://www.helion.co.uk/browse-title-series-more/war-military-culture-in-south-asia-1757-1947/books-in-series/aerial-operations-in-the-revolutions-of-1922-and-1947-in-paraquay-the-first-dogfights-in-south-america-24036.html Regards, Alf McM Well, knock me down with a stale popadom!! Did not know that was hoving up on the horizon- Thanks very much for the steer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 6 August , 2018 Share Posted 6 August , 2018 I was going to say Tony McClenaghan had something coming out. he has already produced some (quite expensive) stuff which occupy a place in my 9ahem) 'Extensive Library'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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