Mapping The Western Front 1916/1917 [Google Earth]

[PearceHD]

Hi All,

New here (have made some proper introductions in the Pals sections) so be gentle!

 

In my spare time I have started planing a route around the western front with the view to drive around it on holiday. As a result the areas I was interested in visiting I started mapping out on Google Earth using image overlays so I could better understand what the area might have looked like in 1916.

 

Needless to say after looking into it I am now in the process of mapping out the entire western front on Google Earth using trench maps from the NLS (National Library Scotland), I know talk about massive undertaking. I am nearly finished with the first part of the Ypres Salient but naturally have run into some obstacles, the chief of which being that square maps don't fit onto a round earth (who knew!). Because of this there are what appears to be some graphics tearing to properly align the maps at certain points which unfortunately is a necessary evil. My second obstacle is that in some sectors there are only 1:20000 maps available which is an issue for getting accurate positioning and also clarity wise when zooming in. The best results are those of the 1:10000 maps as these provide the best accuracy and physical map size. Third issue is that as the NLS maps are mostly from Britain the allied trenches aren't very well mapped, just the first/second row of trenches.

 

I am making the maps about 25% translucent so that modern features can be seen through the map if looked at closely, I found this invaluable for ascertaining the correct positioning in the real world. Also currently I am only doing the immediate front lines of late 1916 and early 1917, I do plan on adding the supply lines and other rear positions at a later stage but want to get the front mapped out first.

 

At the moment I would say this is in a pre-alpha stage and not ready to be properly scrutinised, but naturally for you fine folk if you would like the KML file to view in Google Earth please PM me and I'll share a link to download. The work is entirely my own apart from the maps which are Copyright to the National Library of Scotland, my only ask is that if you share it please link back to this thread and me. 

 

Also please let me know if someone has already done this so I can reach out to them and get a hand or two 

 

All the best,
PHD

Edited 7 March , 2017 by PearceHD

[robertb]

PHD,

A vast task. 

All things mapping on the Western Front refer to Peter Chasseaud.  The definitive book must be "Artillery's Astrologers - A History of British Survey and Mapping on the Western Front 1914-1918". This addresses the 'non-fit' problem(s).

The Western Front Association, in association with the Imperial War Museum, have produced numerous CDs of trench maps of the Western Front called "Mapping the Front"; Naval & Military Press have also produced some CDs of trench maps.

Good luck.

Rob

[PearceHD]

5 minutes ago, robertb said:

PHD,

A vast task. 

All things mapping on the Western Front refer to Peter Chasseaud.  The definitive book must be "Artillery's Astrologers - A History of British Survey and Mapping on the Western Front 1914-1918". This addresses the 'non-fit' problem(s).

The Western Front Association, in association with the Imperial War Museum, have produced numerous CDs of trench maps of the Western Front called "Mapping the Front"; Naval & Military Press have also produced some CDs of trench maps.

Good luck.

Rob

 

Thanks for the pointers there Rob, they will be invaluable.

[Howard]

22 minutes ago, PearceHD said:

 

Also please let me know if someone has already done this so I can reach out to them and get a hand or two 

 

 

Oh yes, it has been done. It is not a trivial task. The problem you face is called geo-referencing and there are a number of things to understand before you get good results, these include the map projection used in the Great War (Bonne for the most part) and its datum point. The best source for the technical details is Col. Jack's Report On Survey On The Western Front that I included on all the WFA Mapping the Front DVDs.

If you want it already done then Linesman is where to go, that uses geo-referenced maps on normal commercial mapping software called Memory Map.

If you want to geo-reference the maps yourself, one trouble you run into is the lat/long points as surveyed in the Great War are only accurate +/- 20 yards according to Col. Jack, so even if you take the lat/long points from the corners of (some) of the maps and apply all known parameters, the fit is not wonderful. You come down to getting modern road GPS tracks and fitting them as best you can until it fits. It takes ages to get good results. Do not even bother with early 1915 maps. If you do not have your own GPS tracks, you can extract that data from Openstreetmap if you have the right software.

Howard

[WilliamRev]

Howard and Rob have beaten me to it, and in any case seem to know more. All I can add is that Linesman is a product of Great War Digital, and you might find useful stuff on their website HERE.

 

William 

[PearceHD]

5 minutes ago, Howard said:

Oh yes, it has been done. It is not a trivial task. The problem you face is called geo-referencing and there are a number of things to understand before you get good results, these include the map projection used in the Great War (Bonne for the most part) and its datum point. The best source for the technical details is Col. Jack's Report On Survey On The Western Front that I included on all the WFA Mapping the Front DVDs.

 

If you want it already done then Linesman is where to go, that uses geo-referenced maps on normal commercial mapping software called Memory Map.

 

If you want to geo-reference the maps yourself, one trouble you run into is the lat/long points as surveyed in the Great War are only accurate +/- 20 yards according to Col. Jack, so even if you take the lat/long points from the corners of (some) of the maps and apply all known parameters, the fit is not wonderful. You come down to getting modern road GPS tracks and fitting them as best you can until it fits. It takes ages to get good results. Do not even bother with early 1915 maps. If you do not have your own GPS tracks, you can extract that data from Openstreetmap if you have the right software.

 

Howard

 

 

Appreciate the help there Howard, I don't want to undermine what Linesman has done as theirs is a professional product. My intent is to get as accurate as possible and provide a KML file others can use to reference certain points during the war for free using Google Earth.

 

If people want the most accurate maps available then Linesman should be their first port of call 

[Howard]

You might like a grid for Google Earth.

I made this to understand better the whole geo-referencing problem. I took the lat/long points from the 1:80,000 map corners, the ones that Col. Jack and colleagues used. These points do not use the same datum or Figure of the Earth as modern maps (i.e. WGS84), so I took the ellipsoidal equations from John P. Snyder's Professional Paper 1395, Map Projections: A Working Manual and transformed them to WGS84. These were then plotted as points in GlobalMapper, software that can transform datums, projections etc. and exported it to the Google Earth KMZ format.

It demonstrates the problem if you want to use only original data, the survey at that time was not that good, a subject that Col. Jack goes into a detail about. +/- 20 yards if you are lucky, so if you install this grid in GE and look hard, you will see the map corners are not exactly where we would want them. None the less, the grid is handy.

There are two solutions. 1. Build a time machine, go back to before the Great War and ensure that French and Belgium survey data is assembled into one place for the Royal Engineers to use or 2. Adjust the grid points by manually dragging them to suit modern accurate data. Either solution will take you a long time!

Linesman was made more accurate by fitting GPS tacks to modern roads. It took ages.

Good luck.

Howard  

 

 

Edited 7 March , 2017 by Howard

[PearceHD]

37 minutes ago, Howard said:

You might like a grid for Google Earth...

 

Howard again extremely useful, that was not something I had thought of. I'm going to take a read through the materials listed above and possibly rethink my approach using Col. Jack's method.

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi PHD,

 

Howard, that KMZ is a great product.  Well done!

 

PHD, PM me for contact details.  I use a console C++ program that takes Snyder's forward and inverse formulae and outputs free text lat/lon or KML.

 

When I finished it, my acceptance test was to traverse every 10 yards from sheet 11 to sheet 62, covering every single letter, number and square a,b,c,d.  This gave me a locus of several million trench map references (from memory), in the format 62d.J.19.b.30.40.  The system had to then take every ordinate and from the latitude / longitude generate the same trench map reference grid and compare the forward and inverse values to ensure they matched.  Corners are tricky, because 62d.A.1.a.01.99 is a valid reference but does not appear on the 1:40000 maps.  C++ is blazingly fast!

 

I used it for my trip to France last year, navigating to modern locations with a tablet, KML and wireless.

 

Here are some of the best fit images - obviously in a 200 km square, not all will map as nicely!

 

[PearceHD]

Thanks WhiteStarLine will pm you now.

[mva]

This doesn't answer your question, but :

do you know this : http://www.carto1418.fr/ ? (up to date until late 1917, more to come)

[Guest]

Phd, I don't know if it's still relevant, but there's a very useful app available for android phones. It's called Custom Maps and lets you align maps by pointing out certain features on your map and in google maps. The result is a kmz file containing the referenced map. I find it very useful to align aerial photographs and old maps. The app can be found at: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.custommapsapp.android

 

Also Mc Master University in Hamilton, Canada has a large collection trench maps available for free download,might be useful as well. They can be found at: https://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/

 

I'm very interested in your results so far, tried to find such a kmz on the net, which shows the frontline or trench maps. As it seems there are none available, so i was thinking to produce my own. So if you can give me a head start that would be great. 

Edited 24 May , 2020 by Guest

[Sakr al Amn]

Hi I am trying to find where a body was recovered from prior to concentration at a CWGC cemetery in the Somme area. The Map reference given on the reburial report is "57c. S.3. a.S.1." The casualty was killed in or around the High Wood near Bazentin le Petit so I was trying to see if there was a reason he ended up at a CWGC site so far from his place of death (according to a War Diary entry). This question has probably been posed by countless Trench Map novices, but does anybody know of an easy convertor to digital Lat and Long?

[Michelle Young]

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/

 

Is this of any assistance? 

Also if the body was recovered a while after the war, it would have been interred in one of the "open" cemeteries. London Cemetery Extension was the open Somme cemetery. But there are burials from far and wide in there, as there are at Cabaret Rouge, Canadian No 2 and Arras Road. 

Michelle 

[Don Regiano]

4 hours ago, Sakr al Amn said:

The Map reference given on the reburial report is "57c. S.3. a.S.1."

 

I don't think that map reference is correct.  I suspect the second "S" should be a 5 which would place it near the sunken road between Bazentin and High Wood.  It sounds as though that could be a September 1916 casualty?  It would help if you provided details of the soldier concerned.  In the meantime check this map - you can use the transparency slider to check the location on a modern day map.:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.04379&lon=2.77190&layers=101464777&b=1

[WhiteStarLine]

8 hours ago, Sakr al Amn said:

The Map reference given on the reburial report is "57c. S.3. a.S.1." The casualty was killed in or around the High Wood near Bazentin le Petit

Hi Sakr al Amn, the map reference you gave (once S is changed to 5) is spot on between High Wood and Bazentin le Petit.  You can convert it at tmapper.com:

[Don Regiano]

Here are a couple of photos of the area.  The first was taken from approximately S.3.b.2.7 looking back towards Bazentin.  The second is from the crossroads at the northern end of Bazentin looking across to the western edge of High Wood.

 

 

[Sakr al Amn]

Really Grateful for the quick response. Many thanks guys

[Sakr al Amn]

7 hours ago, Don Regiano said:

 

I don't think that map reference is correct.  I suspect the second "S" should be a 5 which would place it near the sunken road between Bazentin and High Wood.  It sounds as though that could be a September 1916 casualty?  It would help if you provided details of the soldier concerned.  In the meantime check this map - you can use the transparency slider to check the location on a modern day map.:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.04379&lon=2.77190&layers=101464777&b=1

I am convinced it should be 57c.S.3. a.8.1 and I have got that to work at last. The casualty was Lieutenant Charles Nye of the Northamptons initially buried alongside a Sgt Dilley both end up reinterred alongside each other. They died in fighting on 16 and 18 Aug 1916 (respectively). Nye was an old boy of the Royal Hibernian Military School. He had already served at Cape Helles in 1915. There are a series of letters which are a mine of information. I have roughed out a summary of what happened (see attached). 

Lt C Nye In Memoriam.pdf

[Sakr al Amn]

5 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi Sakr al Amn, the map reference you gave (once S is changed to 5) is spot on between High Wood and Bazentin le Petit.  You can convert it at tmapper.com:

Many thanks I have got it to work.

[Sakr al Amn]

8 hours ago, Don Regiano said:

 

I don't think that map reference is correct.  I suspect the second "S" should be a 5 which would place it near the sunken road between Bazentin and High Wood.  It sounds as though that could be a September 1916 casualty?  It would help if you provided details of the soldier concerned.  In the meantime check this map - you can use the transparency slider to check the location on a modern day map.:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.04379&lon=2.77190&layers=101464777&b=1

"S" turned out to be "8" when I really squinted hard, these old eyes of mine.

[Sakr al Amn]

Here is a puzzle Charles Nye's body was recovered a bit ahead of the trench that was eventually secured (according to the Northamptons' WD) i.e. the circle and pin north of the two pins mark the western and eastern limits of the trench captured. Any ideas why - a hasty burial of him and the Sgt found with him Welk after that day's fighting, battlefield churn through arty impacts a German hasty burial of the two.

[Sakr al Amn]

This oblique aerial shot of the battlefield illustrates just how disrupted the landscape was in 1916; but you guys know all that with your experience.The High Wood was all but destroyed through shelling. Just obsessing about the position of the two recovered bodies, with not enough forensics.

[Don Regiano]

7 hours ago, Sakr al Amn said:

"S" turned out to be "8" when I really squinted hard, these old eyes of mine.

 

Agreed

 

1 hour ago, Sakr al Amn said:

Here is a puzzle Charles Nye's body was recovered a bit ahead of the trench that was eventually secured

 

There could be one of several reasons.  From the coordinates, it looks as though they captured Clarke Trench (maybe there is something to confirm this in the battalion/brigade war diaries).  He appears to have been buried about 100 yards beyond.  It could be for one of the reasons you have suggested.  It may be that he was not buried at all for some time, a frequent occurrence.  As you will see from the attached, by early September, the area where he was buried was within the area of the 50th Division with the assembly trenches for the opening of Flers-Courcelette being Eye Trench.  I've also attached a body density map which will give you an idea of what had to be contended with in the "clearances".  Finally, a photo taken from approx 3.b.7.1.

 

I must admit, I don't know why he was concentrated so far away, especially as nearby London Cemetery was a major concentration cemetery (and, as such, has the highest proportion of "unknowns").

 

 

Edited 17 June , 2020 by Don Regiano

[Sakr al Amn]

26 minutes ago, Don Regiano said:

 

Agreed

 

 

There could be one of several reasons.  From the coordinates, it looks as though they captured Clarke Trench (maybe there is something to confirm this in the battalion/brigade war diaries).  He appears to have been buried about 100 yards beyond.  It could be for one of the reasons you have suggested.  It may be that he was not buried at all for some time, a frequent occurrence.  As you will see from the attached, by early September, the area where he was buried was within the area of the 50th Division with the assembly trenches for the opening of Flers-Courcelette being Eye Trench.  I've also attached a body density map which will give you an idea of what had to be contended with in the "clearances".  Finally, a photo taken from approx 3.b.7.1.

 

I must admit, I don't know why he was concentrated so far away, especially as nearby London Cemetery was a major concentration cemetery (and, as such, has the highest proportion of "unknowns").

 

 

A stunningly thorough reply and many thanks. I have not been across this particular piece of ground, but the micro-topography is fascinating to observe. I do not think I can glean much more on this issue. Interestingly Charles Nye was the brother of Sir Archibald Nye also an old boy of my school, he was serving with the 2nd Bn Leinster Regt at the time his elder brother was killed and Nye (junior) survived the Great War rising to be VCIGS in WW2 (died in 1967). Anyway fascinating to see the depth of study you have achieved, very impressed.