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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Civil Service Rifles, Somerset House


Alan24

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Thank you for your responses.

 

As far as I know the scroll is still inside the column.

 

Andy - Interesting to read about your Great Uncle.  Mine was mortally wounded the next day with 'C' Company.

 

Phil 

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I would like to include here an unpublished photograph of a young CSR soldier among his comrades.

 

He was killed in action in 1918.

 

John Robertson FOULDS

535270

Private

C Company, 1/15th (County of London) London Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Own Civil Service Rifles)

 

Born Tipperary, Ireland 1899.

Resided Merthyr Tydfil, Wales.

Occupation Inland Revenue Clerk.

Enlisted Merthyr Tydfil 4 Jan 1917.

Mobilized 26 Feb 1917.

Arrived France 22 Jan 1918.

Killed in action, France, 4 May 1918, age 19.

Buried Durnancourt Communal Cemetery Extension, France.

Also commemorated on the family memorial at Corstorphine Hill Cemetery, Edinburgh.

 

Mark

Foulds (1).jpg

Foulds (2).jpg

Edited by MAW
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3 hours ago, MAW said:

I would like to include here an unpublished photograph of a young CSR soldier among his comrades.

 

He was killed in action in 1918.

 

John Robertson FOULDS

535270

Private

C Company, 1/15th (County of London) London Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Own Civil Service Rifles)

 

Born Tipperary, Ireland 1899.

Resided Merthyr Tydfil, Wales.

Occupation Inland Revenue Clerk.

Enlisted Merthyr Tydfil 4 Jan 1917.

Mobilized 26 Feb 1917.

Arrived France 22 Jan 1918.

Killed in action, France, 4 May 1918, age 19.

Buried Durnancourt Communal Cemetery Extension, France.

Also commemorated on the family memorial at Corstorphine Hill Cemetery, Edinburgh.

 

Mark

Foulds (1).jpg

Foulds (2).jpg

 

Mark

 

Do you know if this could be the 3/15th London Regiment CSR at Hazley Down Camp near Winchester?

 

The timing is similar to this man's path.

 

Regards 

 

Alan 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Old Phil said:

Thank you for your responses.

 

As far as I know the scroll is still inside the column.

 

Andy - Interesting to read about your Great Uncle.  Mine was mortally wounded the next day with 'C' Company.

 

Phil 

Hi Phil, I picked up a lot of information on here from a 10 year old thread on the regiment, and some members on the BMF kindly copied me some gazette entries etc Quite a few names mentioned on the other thread including casualties, which came from a couple of books on the regiment.

The action my Great Uncle was involved with was overnight into the 25th, and I have now managed to find the names of the other 3 DCM recipients, as well as the four who fell that night.

  A twist to the tale is that when my GU volunteered to support the 8th as a bomber, he had a commission 'in the post' and had technically been discharged from the regiment on May 19th!

Regards Andy

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Alan,

 

It is not clear from Foulds' service records with which unit he served between mobilization in Feb 1917 and his arrival in France in Jan 1918. I assume he was with the 3/15th during this time as the 1/15th and 2/15th battalions were already overseas.

 

Mark

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Mark,

 

Had a quick look at his service record.

 

Strangely, for 4th Jan 1917, his attestation form is that used for Derby Scheme recruits, not MSA recruits. This is shown by Question 11 which refers to ...20th Oct 1915...one day with the colours...Army Reserve... The form also has the box top right for his Card No. which relates back a 'census' of men taken around Aug 1915 IIRC. He also swore the Oath, again IIRC, I thought MSA men didn't swear the Oath.

 

He attested the day before his 18th Birthday, so was probably a volunteer in that respect. I wonder if he did that to ensure that he got into the 15th London CSR, possibly with others he knew. If he had waited to be called up under the MSA, he could have been sent anywhere. This probably explains the type of form used.

 

There are others who will explain this better than I can, e.g. Kenf48, who is particularity good at recruitment questions.

 

The 3/15th were at Winchester (Hazeley Down, Twyford) between Jan 16 and Dec 17 so I wonder if that photo was taken there. Are there any details on the back?

 

Regards

 

Alan.

 

23 hours ago, MAW said:

Alan,

 

It is not clear from Foulds' service records with which unit he served between mobilization in Feb 1917 and his arrival in France in Jan 1918. I assume he was with the 3/15th during this time as the 1/15th and 2/15th battalions were already overseas.

 

Mark

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Thank you for this detective work - very interesting.

 

The reverse has no information about the location and no photographer's address.

 

What is MSA?

reverse.jpg

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Here is another unpublished photograph of Foulds, with some biographical information on the reverse.

 

The photographer's address is in Edinburgh, the family home.

 

Mark

photo 2.jpg

photo 2 reverse.jpg

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3 hours ago, MAW said:

 

What is MSA?

 

Military Service Act...in other words conscription.

 

He would have been deemed to be in the army reserve waiting call up from his 18th birthday but he enlisted age 17 years and 364 days old. I suspect that gave him a little more choice about which unit he joined. 

 

Regards

 

Alan  

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Thank you Phil.

 

that is excellent to hear.  It seems there a quite a few relatives out here, a hundred years on.

 

Pat

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  • 3 months later...
  • 6 months later...
  • 1 month later...

The direct descendants of the Civil Service Rifles is F (Rifles) Company.  F Company was part of 7 Rifles and is currently part of The London Regiment.  We are still a Rifles badged Company and are Riflemen to the core.   F Company is now based at Princess Louise House in Hammersmith having previously been at Davies Street.  This year (2019), F Company sent a detachment to the CSR memorial on 11/11 at 11:00.  We were very pleased to make contact with the Civil Services and be assured F Company will be at the CSR memorial every Remembrance going forward.  The CSR is one of three main regiments from which we are formed (Queens Westminster’s and Queens Victoria’s being the other two) and is a key part of the Regimental history of F Company.  We have been very pleased to re-establish contact and it will not be broken again!

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Great to see the Rifles family reconnecting - especially after the loss of Davies Street  :(.

 

Mark

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  • 3 months later...
  • 3 months later...
On 25/10/2018 at 17:14, Guest said:

This is really helpful info. I have contacted Somerset House but radio silence on what is being planned for Remembrance Sunday. 

 

My great uncle Pt Walter Summerfield is mention on the memorial and perished on 3rd July 1917. My grandfather Sgt George Hoare also served along side my great uncle in the 1/15th Battalion and was wounded in the same incident. It is through this bond that my grandfather met my grandmother (Hilda Summerfield) on paying his respects to the Summerfield family. 

 

I will endeavour to make it to the service but if I am unable to I will certainly pay a visit on another occasion. I am certainly appreciative of PL laying a wreath on behalf of relatives and friends. 

 

Thank you for sharing this valuable info. 

 

 

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Joined forum today, specifically to research my great uncle Abraham Hertz of the Civil Service Rifles, also killed 3rd July 1917 and commemorated on The Menin Gate. I had previously searched the CWGC records for the other CSR casualties that day and had found Walter Summerfield's name. I have visited the memorial at Somerset House and also walked the ground near Spoil Bank south of Ypres where they died. This link may be of interest:- https://boardoftradewarmemorial.wordpress.com/

I'll be pleased to share any information etc

Hertz, Abraham (3).jpg

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My great uncle Abraham enlisted in February 1915, went to France in February 1917 and, as mentioned above, was killed in July 1917. He was a sergeant instructor, specialising in musketry. I am keen to find out where he would have been based until going to France, or indeed anything else about his role. I have seen Hazely Down mentioned in books / websites. I have investigated the School of Musketry at Hythe, Kent, but this was closed down for the duration.

Any help or advice will be much appreciated.

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http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/london-regiment/

 

1/15th (County of London) Battalion (Prince of Wales’s Own Civil Service Rifles)
August 1914 : at Somerset House. Part of 4th London Brigade, 2nd London Division. Moved on mobilisation to Bedmond, and then in November to billets at Watford.
18 March 1915 : landed at Le Havre.
11 May 1915 : formation became 140th Brigade in 47th (2nd London) Division.

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3 hours ago, David Hertz said:

My great uncle Abraham enlisted in February 1915, went to France in February 1917 and, as mentioned above, was killed in July 1917. He was a sergeant instructor, specialising in musketry. I am keen to find out where he would have been based until going to France, or indeed anything else about his role. I have seen Hazely Down mentioned in books / websites. I have investigated the School of Musketry at Hythe, Kent, but this was closed down for the duration.

Any help or advice will be much appreciated.


The crossed rifles badge above his stripes indicate that he was a certificated instructor of musketry.  Although prewar the musketry instructor training and certification in Britain was carried out at the School of Musketry at Hythe, in Kent.  During the war there had to be a great expansion of facilities, making them much more regional so as to minimise travel and maximise throughput.  As a result there were musketry schools set up within each of the regional Commands (e.g. Northern Command’s musketry school was at Strensall), including one at Bisley.  In addition there were several such schools in France and Flanders that carried out the instructors course as well as various other courses such as that for the light machine gun.  The school that your great uncle attended would very likely have been the one closest to his unit whilst it was still undergoing initial training in Britain.

 

26B0DACD-3B88-40BF-94DF-7708363530CD.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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  • 4 weeks later...

image.png.216ca97cad50fcf8df857e73b74c154e.png

 

Glad to see interest in the Civil Service Rifles still going - this year was the 105th anniversary of my great uncle's death in May 1915. 

If anyone would be interested in modern, unofficial, CSR lapel badges, I can supply free of charge - just send me a personal message.

Phil

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On 12/11/2019 at 19:23, RVK said:

The direct descendants of the Civil Service Rifles is F (Rifles) Company.  F Company was part of 7 Rifles and is currently part of The London Regiment.  We are still a Rifles badged Company and are Riflemen to the core.   F Company is now based at Princess Louise House in Hammersmith having previously been at Davies Street.  This year (2019), F Company sent a detachment to the CSR memorial on 11/11 at 11:00.  We were very pleased to make contact with the Civil Services and be assured F Company will be at the CSR memorial every Remembrance going forward.  The CSR is one of three main regiments from which we are formed (Queens Westminster’s and Queens Victoria’s being the other two) and is a key part of the Regimental history of F Company.  We have been very pleased to re-establish contact and it will not be broken again!

 

Dear RVK

As I said last year, it was good to read your comments about F Company taking part.  I wonder if you could help with a related issue?  A replica of the memorial to London Troops, which stands outside the Royal Exchange, was presented and inscribed to the Civil Service Rifles in 1923.  This is illustrated in Jill Knight's book (p220) when it was at the Putney Drill Hall.  I have made enquiries but have been unable to confirm its current location - is it by any chance with you at Hammersmith?

Phil

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5 hours ago, Old Phil said:

 

Dear RVK

As I said last year, it was good to read your comments about F Company taking part.  I wonder if you could help with a related issue?  A replica of the memorial to London Troops, which stands outside the Royal Exchange, was presented and inscribed to the Civil Service Rifles in 1923.  This is illustrated in Jill Knight's book (p220) when it was at the Putney Drill Hall.  I have made enquiries but have been unable to confirm its current location - is it by any chance with you at Hammersmith?

Phil

 

Phil,

Stepping Forward London has this  ...

864255426_LondonTroopsMemorialreplicas1.jpg.148ae2d5544afd2135548c1be12e6c14.jpg

1606649292_LondonTroopsMemorialreplicas2.jpg.d8961a14bbfdd23f4978b044c4280aa8.jpg

 

Obviously with the move out of Davies Street, the CSR's replica is unlikely to be there still, but at least you know where it was in 2014.  :unsure:

 

Could be worth speaking with the main Rifles Museum in Winchester perhaps?

Mark

 

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Mark

 

Many thanks.  That's very interesting and gets me a step nearer - but as you suggest, the search has to continue.  I will try the museum.

 

Phil

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