George Alfred Shaw 2/4 Queen's Own (Royal West Kent)

[Tavern Druid]

Hi Forum

 

I am trying to find more information about a solider I am researching for a local project.

And what I do have I cannot connect together.

 

George Alfred Shaw 2/4 Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) S/no 203295 (also TF/2661) So he was in the Territorial Force at some time.

CWGC has all the above info and that he was buried at sea and commemorated on the Chatby memorial Alexandra.

Find My past has a records for the same man with he same S/no as being a PoW in Ship?Camp Afion Kara Hissar his regiment given as 5/Coy I C C (Imperial Camel Corps?)

The MiC has the same name and S/no the Regiment RWK and also says Theatre of War entered as (2B) Balkans with the date 9/8/1915.

The Medal Roll for the 14/15 Star states; T/F2661 Pte Shaw G A Date of Disembarkation 9/8/15 (2B) Died on Hospital Ship 4/8/18.

Register of Soldiers Effects also add that he died of Pneunomia.

Soldiers Died in the Great War states his date of Death as 4 Nov 1918, Buried at sea.

I have a book titled Dartford in the Great War which states  Wounded at Gallipoli 3 Sept 1915. Hit by stray shell. DoW 4 Nov 1915.

 

The Order of battle confirms the Regiments moment to Alexandra July 1915, and landing at Sulva Aug 1915.

That they left for Egypt Dec 1915. And to Palestine June 1916.

 

I cannot found a service or pension record on Ancestry. The War diary has not yet been scanned by TNA.

 

As you will see there are a number of things that do not tally.

How did he get from the Balkans to Gallipoli?

Was he wounded at Gallipoli then died there on board a Hospital ship?

Was he captured?

Did he then die after release on a Hospital Ship?

Why was he in the Imperial Camel Corps??

 

Register of Soldiers Effects says His Father was George A Shaw.

I have yet to confirm that they appear in any census.

 

I would appreciate any help with trying to put this all together.

I am always blown away by the depth of knowledge that the forum members have.

 

In anticpation

 

David

[ss002d6252]

His war gratuity tallies as paid for 50 months qualifying service at the time of his death, so too late to have died at Gallipoli.

He's on the Chatby Memorial which

Quote

The Chatby Memorial stands at the eastern end of the Alexandria (Chatby) War Memorial Cemetery and commemorates almost 1,000 Commonwealth servicemen who died during the First World War and have no other grave but the sea. Many of them were lost when hospital ships or transports were sunk in the Mediterranean, sailing to or from Alexandria. Others died of wounds or sickness while aboard such vessels and were buried at sea.

So that would tally with a death at sea.
 

Craig

Edited 5 February , 2017 by ss002d6252

[ss002d6252]

#2667 4th Bn enlisted 16 Oct 14 so #2661 would have enlisted on or shortly before.

 

This date tallies with the war gratuity which the army paid out - where money was involved they were usually very particular about ensuring it was right.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

The overseas death cert also confirms 1918.

 

Craig

[kenf48]

19 hours ago, Tavern Druid said:

 

I have a book titled Dartford in the Great War which states  Wounded at Gallipoli 3 Sept 1915. Hit by stray shell. DoW 4 Nov 1915.

As you will see there are a number of things that do not tally.

How did he get from the Balkans to Gallipoli?

Was he wounded at Gallipoli then died there on board a Hospital ship?

Was he captured?

Did he then die after release on a Hospital Ship?

Why was he in the Imperial Camel Corps??

 

Register of Soldiers Effects says His Father was George A Shaw.

I have yet to confirm that they appear in any census.

 

 

 

 

In 1911 he was aged fifteen, living with his parents and was the second eldest of three brothers with four younger sisters at 41 Carlisle Road Dartmouth.  He was employed as a stackers glass blower.

 

As Craig has said he enlisted in the reserves of the 4th Bn RWK (TF), later designated 2/4 in October 1914 and went with the Battalion to Gallipoli.

 

2B is the theatre code for Gallipoli (Dardanelles) 2=Balkans b = Gallipoli

 

No. The evacuation of Gallipoli was completed on 9 January 1916.

 

Yes. He was probably taken prisoner in Palestine. New ICRC records have recently been released but I can't see him.

The Armistice with the Ottoman Empire was concluded on 30 October 1918.  4th November seems early for release, though it was done quite swiftly and completed by December.

This thread describes the formation of the 5th Company ICC from infantry from the 53rd (Welsh) Division.  This discusses the Cheshire Regiment but as a generalisation would apply to men from the RWK.

SDGW lists a number of men from the 2/4 RWK who were serving with the ICC.  You may find a service record which may provide some clues.

 

Ken

Edited 6 February , 2017 by kenf48

[george297]

I did a little search and came across

https://www.awm.gov.au/blog/2010/10/20/experiences-of-a-prisoner-of-war-in-turkey-the-captain-white-story/

which states:

"Afion Kara Hissar the principal concentration camp of Australian prisoners of war in Turkey", which, if George was wounded at Gallipoli, would seem to make sense, in that he would likely be with Australians at AKH. It seems unlikely that the Allies would use a hospital ship with this name. Could he have been in AKH until repatriation  on an as yet unknown hospital ship after the end of the war but died on route to UK? It is worth remembering that a lot of sites who record this type of information don't do any research themselves, so one mistake can be repeated any number of times (and i certainly do not mean the one I've quoted above).

Edited 6 February , 2017 by george297
to add a bit more

[b3rn]

This thesis has previously been posted on the forum. It's got lots of detail on the Ottoman POW camps. The author has visited some of the locations.

 

http://e-publications.une.edu.au/1959.11/8331

[kenf48]

12 hours ago, george297 said:

I did a little search and came across

https://www.awm.gov.au/blog/2010/10/20/experiences-of-a-prisoner-of-war-in-turkey-the-captain-white-story/

which states:

"Afion Kara Hissar the principal concentration camp of Australian prisoners of war in Turkey", which, if George was wounded at Gallipoli, would seem to make sense, in that he would likely be with Australians at AKH. It seems unlikely that the Allies would use a hospital ship with this name. Could he have been in AKH until repatriation  on an as yet unknown hospital ship after the end of the war but died on route to UK? It is worth remembering that a lot of sites who record this type of information don't do any research themselves, so one mistake can be repeated any number of times (and i certainly do not mean the one I've quoted above).

 

Pte Shaw may have been wounded at Gallipoli, however he was definitely not captured there.  As at post 5 in the link posted above (and in all things Camel Corps I would defer to S.B.) the 5th Company ICC began training on 25th May 1916 and became operational on 31 July 1916.  Steve notes, in the same post that the entire Company was destroyed in a raid at Beersheba in October 1917 when most of the soldiers were either killed or captured.

The Company disbanded in July 1918.

 

Therefore as that was the unit given as a POW he must have been captured between those dates and, given the nature of the 5th Company campaign, i.e. garrison duty  most likely in October 1917.

 

The Turks tended to disperse their POWs and organised them into working parties.  It may be he was brought into the concentration camp as he was already ill before he was evacuated, though that is speculative, it would account for his swift repatriation after the Armistice.

 

Ken

[Tavern Druid]

Wow Forum.

 I knew I would get a response but this was fantastic.

Thanks to you all Craig, Ken Lieut-Colonel, George 297  and Steve B.

 

I had a time-line in my mind (Below) that I thought explained the inconsistency between the Book and the other records I found.

Oct 1915 – Enlisted (Probably Dartford or Bromley) extrapolated from Register of Soldiers Effects

9 Aug 1915 – Embarked ( at the this time I did not know to where)

3 Sep 1915 – Wounded. Hit by stray shell. Sept 1915 moved to CCS.

Then depending on severity of wound.

Reassigned back to RWK or to ICC. Guess work.

1915 to abt Mid 1918 – captured held as Turkish PoW.

Mid 1918 to 4 Nov 1918 -  released. Became ill with Pneumonia. Sent to Hospital Ship where he died on voyage home.

Buried at sea because there was nowhere to keep the bodies.

From the brilliant information I have from the Forum I think I was nearly right but his time-line now looks like this. Updates in Bold Red

1^st to 15^th Oct 1915 – Enlisted 4th Bn RWK (TF) (Probably Dartford or Bromley) extrapolated from Register of Soldiers Effects

9 Aug 1915 – Embarked Gallipoli ( at the this time I did not know to where)

3 Sep 1915 – Wounded. Hit by stray shell. (The date and the type of wound received of this fact not yet confirmed)

Sept 1915 moved to CCS. Guess work.

Then depending on severity of wound.

Reassigned back to RWK or to ICC

May 1916 approx. reassigned to ICC

May 1916  to abt Mid 1918 – captured held as Turkish PoW.

Oct 1917 possible date of captured

Oct 1917 to 4 Nov 1918 -  released. Became ill with Pneumonia. Sent to Hospital Ship where he died on voyage home.

Buried at sea because there was nowhere to keep the bodies.

 

I did find the census that Ken referred to but had not confirmed it. Have now located them in 1901 still in Dartford but at a different address at 2 Oxford Villas, London Rd.

 

I believed now that the Author of the book has not made a factual error but the it is a typing error.

Day and Month are correct but the year (ie 1915) is wrong.

5 and 8 can look very similar when hand written.

 

Many thank to you all for you magnificent help.

Regards

David

 

Looks like I have some reading to do as well.!

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, Tavern Druid said:

 

From the brilliant information I have from the Forum I think I was nearly right but his time-line now looks like this. Updates in Bold Red

 

1^st to 15^th Oct 1915 – Enlisted 4th Bn RWK (TF) (Probably Dartford or Bromley) extrapolated from Register of Soldiers Effects

 

9 Aug 1915 – Embarked Gallipoli ( at the this time I did not know to where)

 

3 Sep 1915 – Wounded. Hit by stray shell. (The date and the type of wound received of this fact not yet confirmed)

 

Sept 1915 moved to CCS. Guess work.

 

Then depending on severity of wound.

 

Reassigned back to RWK or to ICC

 

May 1916 approx. reassigned to ICC

 

May 1916  to abt Mid 1918 – captured held as Turkish PoW.

 

Oct 1917 possible date of captured

 

Oct 1917 to 4 Nov 1918 -  released. Became ill with Pneumonia. Sent to Hospital Ship where he died on voyage home.

 

Buried at sea because there was nowhere to keep the bodies.

 

I did find the census that Ken referred to but had not confirmed it. Have now located them in 1901 still in Dartford but at a different address at 2 Oxford Villas, London Rd.

 

I believed now that the Author of the book has not made a factual error but the it is a typing error.

Day and Month are correct but the year (ie 1915) is wrong.

 

 

I think you have a typo too, he enlisted October 1914.

 

He embarked for Gallipoli from Devonport on the SS Northland on the 18th July 1915 and landed with the Battalion on the 10th August at Suvla Bay.

 

 

Unfortunately the war diary does not list casualties, however it notes on the 3 September 1915 they were in the rest camp near 'A' Beach. That does not preclude him from being wounded on that date, but I would have thought the diary might have mentioned it.

 

If seriously wounded he would have been evacuated, probably to Egypt.  In any event the 2/4 RWK was evacuated on 13 December 1915 from Suvla Bay to Mudros on HMT Alcahara. Then left Mudros for Egypt on HMT Haverford, disembarking Alexandria on the 19 December, where they were to remain, in Egypt and Palestine until disbanded in September 1918.

 

Ken

Edited 6 February , 2017 by kenf48

[ss002d6252]

You can narrow the date further for enlistment - #2657 enlisted 11 Oct 14 so we're looking at 11 Oct 14 to 16 Oct 14 for George.

 

Craig

[Tavern Druid]

19 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

I think you have a typo too, he enlisted October 1914.

 

He embarked for Gallipoli from Devonport on the SS Northland on the 18th July 1915 and landed with the Battalion on the 10th August at Suvla Bay.

 

 

Unfortunately the war diary does not list casualties, however it notes on the 3 September 1915 they were in the rest camp near 'A' Beach. That does not preclude him from being wounded on that date, but I would have thought the diary might have mentioned it.

 

If seriously wounded he would have been evacuated, probably to Egypt.  In any event the 2/4 RWK was evacuated on 13 December 1915 from Suvla Bay to Mudros on HMT Alcahara. Then left Mudros for Egypt on HMT Haverford, disembarking Alexandria on the 19 December, where they were to remain, in Egypt and Palestine until disbanded in September 1918.

 

Ken

Whoops. There's me saying that the book has typo then I go and do it!

Perhaps I should write a book.

 

I have not found his service record so what is the source for these details?

Does it come from the War Diary alone or are there other sources I must have missed, don't have access to.

Thank you  again Ken  for you help.

David

[Tavern Druid]

19 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

You can narrow the date further for enlistment - #2657 enlisted 11 Oct 14 so we're looking at 11 Oct 14 to 16 Oct 14 for George.

 

Craig

Thanks Craig

I am aware that it is possibly to narrow down a man' enlistment date but what is the best way to do it.

Do I need to search for a service record someone with a similar S/no?

The other day I used just his service number and got two hits with exactly the same number a George that weren't even close to his regiment.

How could there be men with the same Service number?

Thanks for for continued help

David

[ss002d6252]

47 minutes ago, Tavern Druid said:

Thanks Craig

I am aware that it is possibly to narrow down a man' enlistment date but what is the best way to do it.

Do I need to search for a service record someone with a similar S/no?

The other day I used just his service number and got two hits with exactly the same number a George that weren't even close to his regiment.

How could there be men with the same Service number?

Thanks for for continued help

David

Service numbers were not entirely unique in the army until the 1920's - before that they (mainly) worked on a regimental basis however even within a regiment there could be duplicate numbers..

 

To try and narrow the enlistment date further you would need to look for service numbers in the same regiment and battalion - not all records survive so that may not be possible.

 

Craig

[Tavern Druid]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Service numbers were not entirely unique in the army until the 1920's - before that they (mainly) worked on a regimental basis however even within a regiment there could be duplicate numbers..

 

To try and narrow the enlistment date further you would need to look for service numbers in the same regiment and battalion - not all records survive so that may not be possible.

 

Craig

Hi Graig

 

Thanks for that.

I think with the your help and that of the Forum his enlistment date has been narrowed down to to a 3 day period in Oct 1914.

But I will try what you suggest the next time I have a similar problem.

 

Cheers

David

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, Tavern Druid said:

 

I have not found his service record so what is the source for these details?

Does it come from the War Diary alone or are there other sources I must have missed, don't have access to.

 

 

Yes, from the war diary covering the Battalion's involvement at Gallipoli 95/4323 available on Ancestry but not yet digitised at TNA 

 

The link to Ancestry is here if you subscribe.

 

The Egypt/Palestine diaries (WO95/4631) have not been digitised as yet and are not available online.

 

Ken

[Iain Shaw]

George Alfred Shaw is my Great Uncle and I would like to add what my Grandfather Stanley Shaw said about his brother George.

George was wounded in 1915 in Gallipoli by machine gun fire and was struck in the jaw by a single round which fortunately for George wasn't fatal. 

My Grandfather did mention that his brother was in the Imperial Camel Corp and was taken prisoner during a battle in 1917.

In records that i recently came across from the log of the HMAT Kanowna that G.A. Shaw of the Imperial Camel Corps after liberation from an Ottoman PoW camp died from Lobar Pneumonia on the 4 Nov 1918 and buried at sea between Phokea in the Gulf of Smyrna and Alexandra at 7:55am that day. Source Info ID: 9510869 IWM. 

My Grandfather was also in the Queens Own(RWK) and the eldest brother John was in the Royal Surrey Regiment.

Did you finish the project that you mentioned at the beginning of this thread?

Edited 1 April , 2020 by Iain Shaw
More info added.

[Tavern Druid]

Hi Iain

Nice to hear form you.

Your Great Uncle, George Alfred Shaw, is on the St Albans War memorial which is loctated at 67 St Albans Rd, Dartford DA1 1TE. He is also on the Dartford War memorial in 

Central Park, Market Street, Dartford,DA1 1EU.

I don't konw what you know about him so excuse me if I writing somethig you aleady know.

In 1911 he was living at 41 Carlisle Rd artford with his Parents George Alfred and  Eleanor (nee Humphrey) with his six  siblings, 4 girls and 2 boys. He was 15.

Previuosly in 1901 census the family ahd been at 2 Oxford Villa London Rd., Dartford.

There is an entry for him in a book titled Dartford and the Great War by Gethyn J Rees on page 174 with a photograph of him.

The book does not have a ISBN number and was pulished in or before 1998.

In the enrty for him it states that he worked for Messrs W.E.Blay's Ltd., Spital Street. (Builders)

and there is a short extract form one of his letters home.

I have a copy of this book but I am not sure if I am able to scan and send this to you.

The book is out of print but ther is currently one when I checked today on EBAY for £12.99 +p&p

The sometimes come up for sale.

 

My project was to record all 199 men (100 Army and RN) and 29 RFC/RAF) and to write a short biogrpahy of each of them.

And to have this finished by the end of the commoration of the end od WW1.

But it proved to be to big a task and has been put on the back burner.

I still do some work on it but it is a long way from being completed.

 

Thank you for the information which I will add to my file on your Great Uncle.

 

If I can help in any way please let me know.

 

David turner

 

[Iain Shaw]

Hi David,

 

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I have just come off eBay and I have bought the book that you mentioned and look forward to reading about my Great-Uncle George plus seeing a photograph of him.

You have been a great help with just my reading the thread of this post, it pointed me into other searches of places and some obscure ones where I found out about HMAT Kanowna, the Australian Hospital ship and records.

Thanks again.